|
|
|
|
beny
Apr 24, 2006, 11:00 PM
Post #51 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2005
Posts: 40
|
it does my heart good to see golsen adding to the mix. a breath of fresh air. and the ol' madscientist; its been a few years for him, too. see what happens when you leave?
its come to my attention that the retro work being done at sams is not just the work of one, but two groups. the kids that bolted chickenhead wall (with the proud total of 7 bolts on the face and 1 extra bolt on the boulder below and behind the wall to redirect the rope for toprope efforts) were acting seperately from the crew from little rock that bolted coup de grace.
but these are not isolated incidents. i'm told 'are the dead alive now, no' was bolted. and swamp thing had a bolt added at the crux sometime last year.
as everyone knows, numerous anchors have been added to routes. this has not been the work of one, but many.
i'm not saying these actions are good or bad, just sharing information.
does anyone know of more routes that have seen retro action?
ben
golsen, do you have contact info, i need to talk with you about your time in missouri for a new guide.
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Apr 24, 2006, 11:22 PM
Post #52 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
hey all, I'm not a Sam's local or anything, just a Utahrd who enjoys Arkansas rock via Dallas, TX. I've climbed only two routes at Sam's, one was terrible, and one was one of my favorite trad routes ever.
I agree with most of what has been said in this thread-- that there is plenty of safe, hard sport climbing to be had at HCR and Cave Creek, and that Sam's is a valuable place to work your head in addition to your forearms. Traditional, mixed, ground-up, r/x/, and heady routes are finite resources, and for any to be retrobolted is a slap in the face to the FA's and anyone who wishes to pay homage to the FA's style.
Additionally, there is PLENTY of untapped rock in Arkie. Just a few years ago some friends of mine and myself found a little-tapped bouldering area there that had seen little beyond youth-group topropes; it was incredibly special to be able to do dozens of FA's in our chosen style (in this case, ground-up, highball bouldering).
If you want to have more radguy-stickclip-hangdog fests, find your own new crag; do not bolt existing lines or fuck with the existing ethics.
just my $0.02.
|
|
|
|
|
golsen
Apr 25, 2006, 12:31 AM
Post #53 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
I dont know what was bolted. I broke out my old guide, 1990 and a 92ish update to check it out. To the rght of coup de etat was Coup de Gra 5.8+ on all natural gear , and I think still further right was a 10+ TR called Ode to A Portly Man (orange face, start at pocket) . Note that these are old ratings.
In the book I have it says for Coup de Gra, pretty good pro tricky placements.
So was that challenge removed for everyone now? Was it Coup de Gra that was bolted?
Later, I will try and post some of the ethical writings from Mr. Frisbee out of that guide in hopes they help to preserve the area.
Beny, I sent you a pm, but alas, I barely remember much about routes in misery, I am hoping sean's memory is better than mine...
|
|
|
|
|
crankmarklar
Apr 25, 2006, 2:36 AM
Post #54 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2004
Posts: 48
|
Hey Gary it was Coup D'Gra that was bolted. Also the beautiful face just right of Coup D'Etat has a bunch of bolts on it as well and some ugly chains at the top. I never even considered bolting that face especially on rap. The wall was just too beautiful. The day I ran into the guy who bolted it he claimed that it was going to be one of the "TOP TEN" routes in Arkansas but the irony is that his last bolt is just THREE FEET from Coup D'Etat which is an Arkansas TOP TEN. It's a travesty for sure.
Sean if you need any help from the "Gladiator" let me know! ha!
|
|
|
|
|
ozoneclimber
Apr 25, 2006, 4:19 AM
Post #55 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 250
|
I wasn't saying that ethics don't matter. They do and they matter a lot, but it isn't worth getting so bent out of shape over on the f---ing internet.
And Sean I believe it was you who stooped to name-calling first and I was just calling it like I see it. And don't act like you know something about me or caving. You don't know anything or you would have realised just how idiotic your comment sounded. Caves happen to be a far more fragile environment than any crag that you may have seen, and ethics are what preserve those fragile environments.
I have an idea... How about we all just STFU and climb!!
Sounds like fun to me, anyone interested?
|
|
|
|
|
ozoneclimber
Apr 25, 2006, 4:25 AM
Post #56 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 250
|
BTW I've been to a gym twice and a rec. center once. Can't stand plastic, and I quite frankly don't like the people I generally run into at those places.
-Bobby
P.S. I really would like to help with the issue at hand, and I hope that a few words said over the internet don't hinder anyones contributions
|
|
|
|
|
ozoneclimber
Apr 25, 2006, 4:38 AM
Post #57 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 250
|
I just realized... Golsen and Madscientist are the ones who have spoken the most sense in this thread, and I contributed to the spray...
As I said before, I feel that if you can place gear there is no need to bolt, and at Sam's Throne any bolting would take away from the area.
I jumped the gun in defense of a friend. I'm not saying that what has been said was right or wrong, but lets focus on the topic at hand and get something done here.
-Bobby
|
|
|
|
|
golsen
Apr 25, 2006, 5:13 AM
Post #58 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
well thanks and good job ozone. Fact is, some of those homy boys from OK and MO know whats up. While it may stick in some guys craw that out of staters have such high regards for their Arkansas rock, they should also take it as a compliment. Plus, well, my guess is many of the routes around Sams were put up by out of staters. Not that it matters.
You boys and girls who climb there will have to decide. However, I for one would not want to be the individual who was famous for bringing rappbolting and retro to Sams. It does have tons of beautiful faces, some can and will be climbed by future generations. Back in the day before sport, that was an argument that was used against sport. However, in 20-30 years when your as old as me, you will look back knowing that you tried to preserve a beautiful area instead of help to bolt it.
I would highly suggest that you listen to guys like bovine and crankmarklar and Clay. They have been around. Is it really so bad that one little area is reserved for trad? I dont think so. There are many areas where it coexists, but not always peacefully.
And I wouldnt dare mess with the Gladiator. reminds me of a time I was camped at Sams 12 or so yrs ago with my former wife who didnt mind saying what was on her mind. The Gladiator was campin there with us but being pretty mild mannered. There just so happened to be about a dozen loud locals who were havin them a shindig. My former wife strolls up to their fire and asks them to keep it down. Well they didnt like it and started makin all kinds of bad remarks. Me, I was tryin to get some shuteye, but she comes back to the tent kind of bent out of shape. Well, that was enough to rouse me, so off I went to shut them up. Only reason I did it was I knew the gladiator was near by. I strutted up to their fire all alone to read the riot act to these guys. I asked them which f%%% was the loud mouth who said bad things to my wife and precedeed to tell him to keep his mouth shut. I also told them that my friend the gladiator was nearby and he'd be pissed if I had to get him up to come back and clean up their camp. Me staring down about 12 non-climbing good ole boys from Arkansas in their neck of the woods. Now thinking back to what bovine said, "there is a difference between bold and just plain stupid." I know what that was that night....On the other hand I slept well...
OK sorry for the drift. I really got the impresion that madflash was out to make a name for hisself. Great, but just make sure its a name you want...
|
|
|
|
|
therealbovine
Apr 25, 2006, 2:22 PM
Post #59 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 270
|
After a night of 'sleeping on the issues' I feel a bit more clear headed. It is so easy to get bent out of shape over these reoccurring issues. The fight is a long one, but well worth the preservation and continues access to Arkansas 'classic' climbing area .
Tradition is what we are talking about at Sam's Throne, not "Trad" or "Sport", but Tradition, Climbing tradition. For decades the sandstone cliffs and boulders at Sam's Throne have been enjoyed by climbers. Climbers travel here from all parts of the world, from as far away as the Czech Republic, Ontario Canada, and Bishop California to enjoy, time and time again, the wonderful climbing in the area. Climbers are drawn to Sam's because the rock is excellent, the views incredible, and the climbing Serene and accessible.
For years there has been continuous talks of crowds and traffic, of bolts and of run-outs. These attributes are all a part of Climbing. We have managed these issues for decades and I believe we can continue to do so in the tradition that climbers have used for eons; communication.
As far as the new routes that have been established in the recent weeks with blatant disregard for the ethical values of the area; the local community will proceed in the traditional manor and resolve the issue as expected. The future preservation of traditional values needs to be communicated to newer climbers, with an emphasis on why we hold these ideals to be so valued. Far too many, and I am trying to say this in a respectful way; far too many lesser traveled and ignorant climbers just don't know about ethics and why they are important to climbing and its future, as it has been such an important part of climbing's past. It is only when these ideals are forgotten, devalued or disrespected that 'ethics' get in the way of the peace and solitude of climbing. When things are good, they are very good. When things are bad, they are blown way out of proportion...to prove a point and bring back the balance, the good again...
Sorry for the long post. Just trying to spill it all out. Obviously Sam's Throne holds a place dear to my heart.
I also want to mention that I am not a die hard 'trad' or 'sport' climber. I am just a climber. I enjoy all aspects of climbing no matter what label is put on that particular aspect. I have placed many bolts and many nuts in my days. Either way, I always respect the local ethics of each and every area at which I climb, and will continue to do so for the rest of my days...
Thank you to all whom have contributed to this forum with great ideas and opinions. See you sometime soon at Sam's...
|
|
|
|
|
madscientist
Apr 25, 2006, 2:50 PM
Post #60 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2002
Posts: 159
|
Well said therealbovine.
Just one more comment on my part. I hope something is done soon before things get out of control. This occurred in Boulder Canyon a few years ago, and it got ugly. Someone was even cutting the bottom of bolt hangers so that the hanger would fail if a climber fell. I believe Sean stated what needs to be done, Communication. I don't know if this would have worked in Boulder, but I do believe that it would have helped. I just hope cooler heads prevail at Sam's Throne.
Elijah Flenner
|
|
|
|
|
madflash
Apr 25, 2006, 8:37 PM
Post #61 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 77
|
I'm glad to see more posts in this forum. Its great to see so many people from all across the country feel so strongly about Sam's Throne. I'm also glad to see that the topic didn't get weighed down by too much B.S. Anyway, I plan on climbing around the Throne this weekend. I am pretty sure beny will be there, and probably lots of other folks as well. Anyone wanting to sit around a camp fire and shoot the shit and discuss these issues further is invited to join in. I will try to get the first campsite on the right as you drive in. I don't know what car I will be in, but I will post a description here on Friday (or Saturday) before I leave town. So drop by and put in your 2 cents.
|
|
|
|
|
golsen
Apr 25, 2006, 10:21 PM
Post #62 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
|
Madflash,
glad you posted up. Sorry I cant be there as I live so far away. However, you must clearly have an opinion else you would not have started this thread. Care to share your thoughts on the issue you brought up? What do you think about retro bolting routes and do you think reapp bolts at Sams are acceptable?
|
|
|
|
|
crzdriver
Apr 25, 2006, 10:41 PM
Post #63 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2002
Posts: 198
|
*&^%!!@#
|
|
|
|
|
noshoesnoshirt
Apr 25, 2006, 11:11 PM
Post #64 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2002
Posts: 440
|
Can't we all just get along?
Sheesh.
|
|
|
|
|
mwintroath
Apr 25, 2006, 11:47 PM
Post #65 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 25, 2006
Posts: 4
|
Well Madflash, I don't know who you are but I like you already.
You message reflects the opinions of a lot of climbers in Arkansas, mine included. I live in Little Rock and have been climbing in Arkansas for over 18 years now. I started climbing at Sams Throne in 1988 and quit going there a few years later because of all the traffic back then. Years later and after me and others helped established many other areas, some still secret, I have come back to the throne to escape the crowds at Horseshoe and other areas. I agree with you that Sams needs a major overhaul or more people are going to get hurt like at Cave Creek recently. A lot of bolts and anchors need to be replace. I am a trad climber at heart and climb trad mostly, but I also love to sport climb to keep strong. Personally I can't understand how anyone can just clip bolts and be satisfied. But I have common sense and most of the bolts at Sams and surrounding areas are crap. Sport climbing is a sport and should be safe for everyone to enjoy. If you want to do something bold there are plenty of hard trad routes to jump on. I have been a pretty low key climber my whole life but now issues are coming up that I can't ignore. Mainly the establishment of new lines at Sams. If someone is going to put up a new sport line then it should by done correctly on rappel if you can. If it is too steep than put it up on lead. I've done it both ways. I don't know how one group of climbers can set the standards on how everyone else should climb. Especially from people who don't live here and pay Arkansas taxes. Now I don't advocate bolting up already established lines that were done years ago on gear. Although a few gear routes I put up got bolted later on. More specifically Angst at Cave Creek that was bolted by Frisbe years after I did on gear after spending five months climbing hard scary routes in England. But does it bother me. No. Why doesn't it bother me. Because I not whiny sensitive bitch. I climb for myself and nobody else. In fact I kinda like that people bolt up routes that I did first on gear. For one, everyone can enjoy it and if they ask I can say I did it years before on gear. Also, did I bitch when folks from Missouri an OK rename mine and Rich McDudes routes in the Outback that we put up years before anyone was even climbing there. No. Did I bitch when the same folks rename Fountain Red, Fraggle Rock and then preceded to renamed most of the boulder problems that our group put up. No. Why, Because I am not a Whiny sensitive bitch. I mean there are a lot more things in this world to be mad about that someone rap bolting an unestablished line at Sams Throne. At least you are not a Gay Black Midget. Now that person would have something to bitch about. Also, I don't understand how someone can bolt a crack and be upset about rap bolting. It makes no sense. Personally I think it's ego. But, I use to be a hard core traditionalist but my opinion and attitude has change in my 18 years of rock climbing. Basically what I am trying to say is, it is called sport climbing for a reason. It is a sport. And if you are putting up a sport climbing then you should put it up for others not for yourself. If you want to put up a route for you ego. Then put up a hard scary trad line. That's what I do. So anyway, that my two cents. Love it or leave it. If it feels good then do it.
Mike Wintroath
aka Mike the Dude
aka Ike (hot spring county)
aka Maigi
|
|
|
|
|
ozoneclimber
Apr 26, 2006, 12:03 AM
Post #66 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 250
|
I've got to go to Mtn View on Monday anyway so I'll try and be at Sam's on either Friday night or Saturday morning. I'll PM you.
|
|
|
|
|
madflash
Apr 26, 2006, 1:31 AM
Post #67 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 77
|
Mike I can't help but laugh. Oh man that was a good one about the gay black midget. Speakin' of have you already named a route that, cause I have a good one picked out.
Anyway, in response to the question about my ethics or lack there of and my opinions on bolting at Sam's I have formulated this as my drunken response.
1. There are sport routes at Sam's Throne already established.
2. To bolt a new sport route at Sam's Throne, a route that hasn't seen any ascents on lead, does NOTHING to subtract from any ethic that is established there and therefore is super okay with me. I.E. I don't give a shit.
3. To bolt up someone else's route that was originally done on gear is bad form, ONLY IF they didn't get permission to bolt it from the first ascentionist. But as Mike pointed out earlier, it happens and crying about it just makes you look like a whiny little bitch
4. To top rope a route to death and have all of the moves wired and ticked and all of the gear on your harness in the exact order it goes on the route just ready for your send, called a headpoint, is just as stupid as it gets. My apologies to the Brits, they kick-ass. I think that type of ascent just takes away from a route. If you have to TR it before you lead it that doesn't do much to preserve any ethics, it basically says you don't trust the gear and you were up there more or less free soloing. (And to me there is nothing cool about toproping. Anytime I do it a little voice is in the back of my head, saying, pussy, pussy, pussy....Oh God Make the Voice Stop!!! That's just cause I have been climbing too long not to lead. And yes, next time you see me toproping you are free to call it how you see it. )
5. And here is the real kicker. Bolting on lead vs. rap bolting. Regardless of how the bolt was placed, it makes no utter difference to any subsequent ascent, in my opinion. When I get up to a bolt I don't stop and ask, Now was this bolt placed on rap, cause if it was I sure as hell am not gonna clip it. No, that is just asinine. The only person it matters to is the first ascentionist. And since it is the first ascentionist's route, I feel that they have the freedom to put the bolts in naked while suspended from a helicopter if they so chose to. I.E. I don't give a shit. Sides putting in bolts on lead means you are basically aiding whatever route it is. And sitting there hanging on a hook while you drill in a bolt is just silly, unless you are like 1000 feet up. But hey if you want to go to all the trouble to put in bolts on the lead, I say go for it. When you get done I will still clip them just the same.
6. Now the only topic I have even a shred of anything called ethics concerning bolting is...using bunk crap bolts for the job. I am not saying anything about the use of, in my opinion, crap hardware by the folks back in the 90s. Its true they couldn't just run down to the hardware store and pick up bolts....well. But seriously, nowadays I think the only bolting ethic that has any real merit is that of using the best hardware you can get. You do the job, you do it right, you make it last. I would like to see nothing smaller than 1/2" go in and nothing shorter than 3 and 3/4". I know stainless is expensive, so screw it. Ideally some 3 and 1/2" glue-ins are the way to go. That's what I will be using from now on. GLUE-INS baby. Bomber, bombproof, indestructible, take whips on it all days till your ass hurts and your belayer is cursing GLUE-INS. Just as soon as I can come up with some funding....speaking of, anyone want to give me a grant?
So yes, I am the devil. I hate babies and puppy dogs. I don't vote or help little old ladies cross the road. I aim for squirrels. sue me.
|
|
|
|
|
weschrist
Apr 26, 2006, 2:40 AM
Post #68 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 579
|
In reply to: 4. To top rope a route to death... is just as stupid as it gets.
b-b-but Lisa Rands and Lynn Hill did it... shit, Lynn Hill did it on a v8 boulder problem. I suppose it is more accepted if you are a woman?
as you said, the Brits do it too... but they are just a bunch of silly old wankers, right?
It is so much more real to mix all your gear up, not know the route at all, and/or just clip up sports climbs. The whole idea of actually executing E8 6c pales in comparison to onsighting 5.10!
pfft
|
|
|
|
|
madscientist
Apr 26, 2006, 3:57 AM
Post #69 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2002
Posts: 159
|
Apparently I lied. I am going to say something else. This is in response to madflash's first three comments.
There are sport routes at Sam's Throne, but not many. There are also many routes at Sam's and there are climbing area's close by that are almost solely sport climbing. There is no need to place many new bolts at Sam's Throne just to add more routes. In my opinion, there is a reason to not place new bolts at Sam's Throne.
We know a little about what sort of experience madflash is looking for when he climbs. However, not everyone is looking for the same experience. What he believes is a stupid way to climb a route, headpointing, others enjoy. If retro-bolting of routes are allowed, even if it is inadvertent, then you take something away from others since one person with a drill can completely change the character of a route and even a whole area. There are several areas close to Sam's Throne where you can sport climb. Thus, I believe an agreement within the climbing community to not add new bolts to Sam's Throne will preserve the area for a portion of the climbing community. Since the place has a traditional history, this also makes some sense. Why not let the climbers who enjoy headpointing and hard trad tick the relatively few remaining routes?
I expect that new bolts will be slowly added to Sam's Throne, but I hope it is a slow process and climbs like The Natural remain bolt free. In my opinion, bolts on The Natural would turn a great route into something less. Let us be carefull where the new bolts end up.
|
|
|
|
|
therealbovine
Apr 26, 2006, 3:51 PM
Post #70 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 270
|
Do you really believe that comments like In reply to: I.E. I don't give a s---. In reply to: I not whiny sensitive b----.
Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has a right to voice it. You also have a right to destroy a beautiful climbing area by creating a whore house of bolted lines with shiny hardware. There are numerous areas within minutes of Sam's Throne where you could have the run of the place, why is it that you would choose an existing area with a strong traditional ethic to take this stand makes absolutely no sense. But by all means, go right ahead, you are the ones paying the taxes and all...
Those of us who choose to maintian a higher moral standard can then exercise our right to use a crow bar and bolt cutters.
|
|
|
|
|
madflash
Apr 26, 2006, 5:17 PM
Post #71 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 77
|
I have in no way advocated retrobolting old gear lines at Sam's. I would just assume have most of those old lines sit there and collect dust like they have been for the past ten years. I have no problem with that.
The only thing I am advocating is some kind of agreement to use really good hardware to REPLACE older hardware that the COMMUNITY deams unsafe. Such as replacing the 3/8" wedge bolts on a route like Prophets of Baal at Valley of the Blind, which by the way is a sport route less than 1 mile from Windy Armbuster. I would like to see top anchors (and good ones at that) installed on many of the classics at Sam's that don't already have anchors such as Burning Bridges. I have already begun to do that. Last weekend i added anchors and chains to the top of Second hand hero. I will continue to add anchors and replace old bolts as time and $ permit.
As I stated earlier, I respect First Ascentionists just I would like others to respect routes that I put up. If someone feels that a route of mine needs bolts added, all they need do is ask me. If i feel that they are appropriate I will gladly give permission to add hardware, as I feel many other first ascentionists would do.
While I don't expect Sam's to get grid bolted or dozens of new routes to go up anytime soon, I do expect to see a new line go up here and there, just as they have been going up in the past several years. Almost everytime I go to Sam's, especially after several months away, I notice a new line or two. I certainly don't expect people to stop putting up routes there. Sam's like any other area is constantly changing and as a consequence new routes will go up. If someone has a line picked out that hasn't seen an FA and isn't an obvious all natural line (almost all of which have already been done), I would expect them to put in a bolt or two to make it safe for themselves and anyone else. If the whole route lacks good gear then i would expect the whole route to have bolts on it to protect themselves and anyone else wanting to climb it. So if a new route goes up without any good gear on it and has bolts instead, why should everyone else be so suprised.
No one seemed to pissed when bolts showed up on obvious cracks in the Sam's area, even when there was bomber gear right next to the crack. For instance, Yen and Yang in the outback, Swamp Thing and Break in the Battle on the East Main bluff, and another 5.10 crack on West Main bluff before you get to Ultimate Frisbee ( I can't remember the name of that one). It seems NEW sport routes at Sam's is an unacceptable idea, yet bolted cracks in no way contradicts the ethic everyone is so intent of preserving. Please explain that one so I can better understand where you guys are coming from.
|
|
|
|
|
yousuck
Apr 26, 2006, 5:41 PM
Post #72 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 17
|
Madflash, I like your list.
My 2 cents:
#4 - Who cares anyway. No impact to rest of the climbing world. Let'em do what they want and call it whatever they want.
#2 - Good, but should be slightly ammended to include the "prohibit" bolting of any that that could "reasonably" be trad protected. Kinda subjective, I know, but I think it easy to see what I'm getting at. If you walk up to a nice crack slightly off the beaten path with your drill, how do you know if it has/has not been climbed before? Plus, benefits of minimizing impact.
#5 - The Sams community of climbers should decide on what the area standard is. If you all decide bolting on rapel is OK, then so be it (it seems like that is becoming more and more the standard due to the benefits of well protected routes). But this is regional, if you did this at Stone Mtn in NC the locals would chop all but 1 of your bolts and hang you by it... just kidding...kinda.
Good work for "drunken response"! If you all you Sams area guys can figure out a way to agree on the details, get it communicated and enforced, you will have done a great service to the entire climbing community (even those that "don't care" and those that "climb for themselves" and the hopeful preservation of our sport. We'd all owe you one.
Let me know what I can do to help.
Scott Shankle
www.memphismountaineers.com
p.s. please excuse my username
|
|
|
|
|
therealbovine
Apr 26, 2006, 6:03 PM
Post #73 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2003
Posts: 270
|
Madflash,
Thank you for your last post. It seems down to earth and realistic.
I don't know why the bolts near gear placements that you described have been overlooked as acceptable. I do know that one of our mutual friends stated that they had placed a bolt near a roof crack because " the rope would otherwise become stuck in the crack while climbing". Not to say that this makes it acceptable, but this was his answer .
Sport routes in and around Sam's are not being totally banished and hated by those with a more traditional background. We enjoy said routes as much as anyone. The issue is in what style they are bolted. The Throne and West & East main Bluffs have always had a ground up ethic. As the areas expanded, like say into the outback, Hero Maker and Valley of the Blind, where a majority of people weren't climbing at the time, newer schools of thought prevailed and were accepted, like bolting in a non traditional manor. Yes it is contrived, but that is how it was decided by the locals at the time.
There is so much rock around Sam's, it would be a shame to see a large influx of new sport routes in that immediate area. Of course there are many, many lines that would make for some excellent sport or mixed lines at Sam's. If one can do a line ground up, so be it. If he cannot, then why not leave it for someone strong enough to do in the future. By bolting these lines on rappel, you open up a whole new bag of worms; Quantity vs. quality, visual and environmental impact, over bolting, established lines being bolted and anchors added where they are not needed. And is rap bolting any better than than a headpoint or a top rope that you so hate? I mean really, you are hanging there looking at the holds while on rappel, are you not?
Adding anchors to existing routes is still adding bolts to an existing route. You stated that you would appreciate communication from someone wanting to add bolts to one of your routes. I believe that they too would want the same respect. And why do you think anchors are so needed on routes at Sam's? Is it to save the trees? Are there no other anchor possibilities at the top of the routes? Or do you just want to make climbing more convenient, much like the Forest Service has made camping access at Sam's more convenient?
|
|
|
|
|
crankmarklar
Apr 26, 2006, 10:20 PM
Post #74 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2004
Posts: 48
|
In reply to: 5. And here is the real kicker. Bolting on lead vs. rap bolting. Regardless of how the bolt was placed, it makes no utter difference to any subsequent ascent, in my opinion. When I get up to a bolt I don't stop and ask, Now was this bolt placed on rap, cause if it was I sure as hell am not gonna clip it. No, that is just asinine. The only person it matters to is the first ascentionist. And since it is the first ascentionist's route, I feel that they have the freedom to put the bolts in naked while suspended from a helicopter if they so chose to. I.E. I don't give a shit. Sides putting in bolts on lead means you are basically aiding whatever route it is. And sitting there hanging on a hook while you drill in a bolt is just silly, unless you are like 1000 feet up. But hey if you want to go to all the trouble to put in bolts on the lead, I say go for it. When you get done I will still clip them just the same
I enjoy all types of climbing sport, trad, walls, mixed and as mentioned in my previous posts they all have their place.
Sense of adventure, respect and education of a style of climbing are the fundamental reasons there is so much controversy over sport rapped lines and ground up trad lines.
First it does matter...
Placing a bolt on a hook while on lead like some routes at Quartz Mtn. Oklahoma is highly respected as the standard for that area and has remained as such since the 70's. You can go there and climb a route as it was on the day it was established and when you top out you can take off your hat to the guy who put the route up because it is without a doubt an awesome achievement. It's always been one of the things that has drawn me to the sport of climbing this is one facet of it and should not be dumbed down to a tick or a send. These routes just like some routes at Sam's make you work for the ascent. Yes some are dangerous and yes you might get hurt. This notion that we need to make every route safe is wrong.
When I started climbing at Quartz years ago I walked by several routes that I dared not try until I was ready some of these routes took several years for me to get the "skill" to lead and some are still waiting for me to climb. Not every route should be taken as a casual affair that's climbing. This fast food get it now mentality is basically part of the reason some climbers feel the way they do it's the culture.
So with that said yes it matters it matters because not giving a sh** is basically what I am hearing from the majority of the Arkansas crowd.
Lets get real here! Preserving Sam's should be a no brainer! Look around there are sport lines everywhere except Sam's and that is way cool. Let some of the guys getting into the sport have the experience of placing a tricam in a pocket and slinging a chicken head and maybe get the crap scared out of em' it's part of the climbing and it WILL make you a stronger climber for sure. You will remember your lead and grow from it. Climbing Edge of Flight at Sam’s many years ago was a milestone for me and I still remember that day but ask me what sport route I did five years ago and I would be hard pressed to remember it. These little trad lines are special and will give you skills to do trad routes any where.
I invite any of you Arkansas climbers to come out to Quartz and I will be glad to show you around in hopes that maybe you will get a better sense of what bolting from the ground up is all about, I mean this with respect.
You can PM me anytime.
|
|
|
|
|
jer
Apr 27, 2006, 12:06 AM
Post #75 of 144
(13400 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2000
Posts: 426
|
Holy Smokes!
I come home today from the desert to five phone calls pointing me to this discussion.
I am long winded. Sorry bout that.
Why should you listen to me? This whole conversation is difficult, because it is based on perspective. I try to be objective because I don't KNOW the perspective of many in this group. This is mine: I started climbing at Sams 13 years ago. Together, Beny and I have established a new route, or free'd an existing aid line at Sams on every visit for the past two years. Some of those in this conversation have been doing the same since the 80's. Show some respect, please. Through the careful encouragement and guidance of those who came before us, we waited to attempt any of this until we felt "ready".
I admit, I have been tempted on many occasions to pre-inspect, toprope, and rap bolt a line at Sams. As a group of friends, we have done well keeping each-other accountable. And why should we? Why should an areas ethics be "first come, first serve"?
Who decides? Me? You? The crusty dudes from the 70's who set the precedence? Hopefully for Sams sake, history decides. We came to America, and told the Natives how to live; we are now in Iraq doing the same thing. These concepts are so AMERICAN. "THIS IS WHAT I THINK, AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE BEFORE ME THINKS, I'LL DO WHATEVER I WANT!"
I am guilty, too, though. Even though it is difficult for me, I chose to adapt to the local ethic at Sams instead of rebelling. I do the same at Eldo. I HATE those nasty old soft pins. But the experience I get there is priceless. I stretch, I grow, and learn to slow down and enjoy the process.
There are so many other places in the state to plug your drill. I have chosen at Sams to fill in the blanks with the local, historic ethic. If I can't send, I pass it on to a friend. If they cannot, I pull any hardware and leave it for someone else to try. The personal growth process of waiting till your ready from the ground is so much more rewarding. Try it. Sams is such a small blip on the screen for Arky climbing. Can't we please keep one single crag "untamed"? Tony, I too remember my first go on Edge of Flight. It was also a personal milestone. Loved your post. If Sams can maintain it's heritage, there is a lifetime of milestones for all of us.
Reading about the face next to Coup De' Etat is particularly painful. How many years have locals stared in wonder at this glorious wall and wondered "will it go from the ground"? Days before it was bolted, I stood beneath it wondering when I would be ready. Little did I know it was my last chance. I instead did a new line 50 feet left, with no hardware. So sad its teeth were taken this way...but, ya snooze-ya lose, I guess. I have at least 15 other lines at Sams that I am waiting on, patiently until the planets align themselves correctly and I sack up. Hopefully these rap bolters will not get there before I do.
I have often observed that "The Throne" has an identity crisis. The world class rock allows for expression in almost every form- perfect bouldering, crack climbing, jug hauls, thin faces, aretes, and my favorites- the roofs. As it stands, there is a peaceful co-existion between all of these disciplines. A sport climber can have a number of great visits in the 5.10 to 5.12 range. But how many is too many? 10% of the routes? 20%?
I wish I knew. If rap bolting was widely accepted here, there would be more than twice the number of routes.
I have toproped a few lines that I was unwilling to try from the ground. They still exist as a blank canvas, waiting for someone else to step up. Hopefully with a little education others can practice some self control and do the same.
Thanks for starting this conversation, MadFlash. Even if I don't agree with some of your thoughts, communication is good, and this has been stewing for awhile.
-jer
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
