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getsomeethics
Aug 11, 2006, 5:09 AM
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In reply to: your 'kid's these days' definition of trad, I had to chuckle a bit.
hmmmm, kids these days? i don't follow, but was not my intention.....
TF
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kalcario
Aug 11, 2006, 5:12 AM
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In reply to: Forget about it my friend. I'd rather just drop it. Its getting my blood pressure up and that's stupid on my part. It is what it is, how's that? Back in the game yet buddy?DMT
Nah I'm out. I used to think those things in the Meadows were trad routes too, but it doesn't really make sense anymore - the definition of what trad climbing is is stricter now, I think. It has to actually stand for something, or it becomes trort, or spad...
The second pitch of the Bachar-Yerian has 4 bolts, and no one dares call it a sport route. But Biographie, at Ceuse, 85' tall, commonly gets redpointed by guys who only clip...4 bolts. And it's 14c, not 11c. Of course, those guys redpointing Biographie know the route pretty well, so it's not quite the same thing as onsighting 30' runouts on 5.11. But you put those same guys doing Biographie on the B-Y, and tell them it's not a sport climb, and they're not gonna understand what the hell you're talking about, because those guys are looking at huge whippers from *way* harder climbing than is on the B-Y all the time.
Hang out at the upper-level sport crags in Europe and you see guys skipping bolts, totally going for it on 5.13 onsights, 30' above the last clip because they skipped the last 2 bolts, fairly often. The comp-level guys climb that way all the time - it's good for the head to risk big falls when you're onsighting, and if you're not gonna hit anything (like you're not going to on the 2nd pitch of the B-Y), then who cares if you fall 15' or 50'.
So, like I said, I think the modern definition of trad climbing has nothing to do with pre-placed gear anymore, and if you're clipping bolts, regardless of how far apart they are or how they got there, you're sport climbing.
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el_layclimber
Aug 11, 2006, 5:39 AM
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I am sure that this won't solve anything, but as a kid when I learned how to climb, there was no such thing as "trad" and "sport." We just went climbing, and if no one felt like farting around with gear, we walked up to the top, set up a top rope and had fun anyway. This was referred to as "clean" climbing, because the idea was to leave the rock intact in climbing it.
I remember watching a guy rap-bolt a route at le petit Verdon in Flagstaff, and thinking "this guy seems to be doing an awful lot of hanging about fiddling with a drill when he already has a perfectly good top rope right there."
We could probably use a new term, and we would all be wise to admit that the idea of "trad" is something we want as an easy metaphor for the way we treat the planet, when the real environmental impact we have comes when we drive our cars to the crag and back and forth to work trying to earn the leisure time to enjoy life in a system designed to extract the maximum labor value from us and the natural world.
Whether it is a one-move boulder problem that I have done countless times over twenty-some years or a multi-pitch backcountry route, I aim to have fun and not ruin it for the next climber. I also think it is bad form to ruin the view for someone who has the sense to just sit and admire the rock rather than beat himself up trying to climb it (only to turn around and go back down again).
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kalcario
Aug 11, 2006, 6:01 AM
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In reply to: we walked up to the top, set up a top rope and had fun anyway. This was referred to as "clean" climbing, because the idea was to leave the rock intact in climbing it. I remember watching a guy rap-bolt a route at le petit Verdon in Flagstaff, and thinking "this guy seems to be doing an awful lot of hanging about fiddling with a drill when he already has a perfectly good top rope right there."
But, you see, once those bolts are in, no one ever has to go to the top of the cliff to set up the top rope. The top of the cliff never gets touched, because the anchors are below the top of the cliff. Which creates more environmental impact - a dozen 3/8" holes in the rock, or people marching up to and down from the top of the cliff to set up top ropes?
Also, my friend, those bolts can be removed and the holes filled in so that you can never tell there was ever a bolt there. Same with all the drilled pockets at Petit Verdon. A couple days work, and it's right back to the way it was before those routes were there. Not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, really...
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superbum
Aug 11, 2006, 6:12 AM
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very interesting topic! I shall come back and reply when I have more time...
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tradriley
Aug 11, 2006, 6:46 AM
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So I guess then there are is no trad climbing at J-tree?
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dingus
Aug 11, 2006, 3:46 PM
Post #32 of 90
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In reply to: The second pitch of the Bachar-Yerian has 4 bolts, and no one dares call it a sport route. But Biographie, at Ceuse, 85' tall, commonly gets redpointed by guys who only clip...4 bolts. And it's 14c, not 11c. Of course, those guys redpointing Biographie know the route pretty well, so it's not quite the same thing as onsighting 30' runouts on 5.11. But you put those same guys doing Biographie on the B-Y, and tell them it's not a sport climb, and they're not gonna understand what the hell you're talking about, because those guys are looking at huge whippers from *way* harder climbing than is on the B-Y all the time.
As always you make compelling points goddamnit. I wasn't going to respond!
Falling off BY is a different game than falling off a radically overhanging sport route; hitting knobs on a vertical wall, sadly, is a concept with which I am all to familiar.
I think that is a huge distinction my friend. And that distinction comes into play with ground up bolting where bolts end up where they are possible to be placed, not where they will necessarily minimize the conseqences of a fall.
Cheers
DMT
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cchildre
Aug 11, 2006, 4:21 PM
Post #33 of 90
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In some sense I would agree. Trad might be overused, but it's just the common word which has evolved over time, just as climbing has.
Really consider it, if your using a rope and not simply free soloing, then your not truly climbing in the Traditional sense. I think good ol Mikey Reardon said it best. Purest climbing is naked, barefoot, on site free soloing.
Trad climbing, sport climbing, bouldering, top roping, hang dogging, aid climbing.....call it what you will, it is all climbing, you vs the rock with your weapon of choice. The labels just don't matter.
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fracture
Aug 11, 2006, 4:39 PM
Post #34 of 90
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In reply to: In reply to: Forget about it my friend. I'd rather just drop it. Its getting my blood pressure up and that's stupid on my part. It is what it is, how's that? Back in the game yet buddy?DMT Nah I'm out. I used to think those things in the Meadows were trad routes too, but it doesn't really make sense anymore - the definition of what trad climbing is is stricter now, I think. It has to actually stand for something, or it becomes trort, or spad... The second pitch of the Bachar-Yerian has 4 bolts, and no one dares call it a sport route. But Biographie, at Ceuse, 85' tall, commonly gets redpointed by guys who only clip...4 bolts. And it's 14c, not 11c. Of course, those guys redpointing Biographie know the route pretty well, so it's not quite the same thing as onsighting 30' runouts on 5.11.
The ascent is more than the final redpoint. Few (if any) of the people who have redpointed Biographie could've done it without all the dogging bolts, which they do clip, just not on the final run. It is misleading to act like only 4 bolts are involved in the entire ascent.
The rest of what you say about skipping bolts is correct, of course. Longer falls are not necessarily any bolder than short falls. And pretty much all decent sport climbers pass clips sometimes.
In reply to: So, like I said, I think the modern definition of trad climbing has nothing to do with pre-placed gear anymore, and if you're clipping bolts, regardless of how far apart they are or how they got there, you're sport climbing.
Provided that the bolts are configured such that the climber does not need to focus on the result of a fall, then yes, it doesn't matter how they got there. This means that some bolted trad routes do also qualify as sport climbs.
However, if you're climbing a 20m slab with one bolt at 7m, and the crux goes 'till the end, you certainly ain't sport climbing, regardless of how the bolts got there.
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fracture
Aug 11, 2006, 4:45 PM
Post #35 of 90
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In reply to: I think good ol Mikey Reardon said it best. Purest climbing is naked, barefoot, on site free soloing.
Good 'ol MIkey Reardon is wrong (and that meme isn't originally from him, anyway). He might as well proclaim Evel Knievel the world's best climber---since clearly stupid stunts is what he considers "pure".
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cchildre
Aug 11, 2006, 5:24 PM
Post #36 of 90
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In reply to: In reply to: I think good ol Mikey Reardon said it best. Purest climbing is naked, barefoot, on site free soloing. Good 'ol MIkey Reardon is wrong (and that meme isn't originally from him, anyway). He might as well proclaim Evel Knievel the world's best climber---since clearly stupid stunts is what he considers "pure".
I guess that is one opinion. Doesn't matter who said it, first guys climbing did it that way back in the stone age.
Evil Knievel never climbed anything that I recall, but he did do some wicked jumps though! I like Reardon because he pisses off so many people and refuses to apologize for it. I think it is funny how so many people get worked up about it, when it sort of doesn't really effect them all that much. The great thing about this country, is you have the right to be stupid. Not as much as you used to 50 years ago, but still you do. Why worry so much about what others are doing? Truth is, many outside of this sport think it is irresponsible for anyone to climb rocks, at all reguardless of the protection. It is dangerous and any one of us could die today or tomorrow. At the same time, I also understand why so many don't like Reardon, since he in some fashion represents all of us and is a role model for the young ones. The debate will go on, and everyone has an opinion, and really I am still working on mine. I am still divided somewhat about this one.
Safe climbing.
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kalcario
Aug 13, 2006, 6:29 PM
Post #37 of 90
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In reply to: I also understand why so many don't like Reardon, since he in some fashion represents all of us and is a role model for the young ones.
The anger has less to do with him personally and more to do with the climbing press, which has at least some responsibility to do a little fact checking, as well as talking to the local climbing community, before supporting such wildly ridiculous claims as on-sight soloing Romantic Warrior and doing 160 pitches in a day at Tahquitz. Neither of those claims, as well as many others, are even remotely plausible in the light of past performances by far better climbers than Reardon - something the mags should have been able to figure out. There will always be unbalanced kooks claiming to have done things they obviously didn't; this sport in particular attracts that type like flies. But we have a right, I think, to expect at least high-school-newspaper level journalism from people claiming to be accurately reporting what they're writing about.
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lunabruandabby
Aug 13, 2006, 7:09 PM
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This one of the more interesting threads I have read here.
I have immense respect for the amount of thought and expression of self the posters have given to this topic.
Dingus should get an award for the most consistently entertaining posts. (Maybe one for worst picture selection on his profile too.)
Justin
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el_layclimber
Aug 14, 2006, 8:07 PM
Post #39 of 90
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In reply to: But, you see, once those bolts are in, no one ever has to go to the top of the cliff to set up the top rope. The top of the cliff never gets touched, because the anchors are below the top of the cliff. Which creates more environmental impact - a dozen 3/8" holes in the rock, or people marching up to and down from the top of the cliff to set up top ropes? Also, my friend, those bolts can be removed and the holes filled in so that you can never tell there was ever a bolt there. Same with all the drilled pockets at Petit Verdon. A couple days work, and it's right back to the way it was before those routes were there. Not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, really...
The idea of what constitutes environmental impact is a moot point, especially if we drive cars or fly in airplanes to get to our favorite crag. I've never set foot on the Eiger, but I have played a role in deteriorating the quality of the route in driving my car to work. (This is also a moot point, I know.)
I got sidetracked, my main point was that an ethical approach to climbing which attempts to minimize environmental impact could be referred to as CLEAN CLIMBING. This term focuses on my environmental approach, and we can keep arguing about whose is best, but with some distinction between boldness and environmental attitude.
We could then come up with other terms for describing style, like the SD (swinging-di**) decimal system. (e.g. Bachar-Yerian: 511C, SD.10 Biographie 5.14C, SD.5) Of course, someone like Derek Hersey or Michael Reardon eventually comes along, and messes up the logic of the decimal system by free soloing it.
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krusher4
Aug 14, 2006, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: In some sense I would agree. Trad might be overused, but it's just the common word which has evolved over time, just as climbing has. Really consider it, if your using a rope and not simply free soloing, then your not truly climbing in the Traditional sense. I think good ol Mikey Reardon said it best. Purest climbing is naked, barefoot, on site free soloing. Trad climbing, sport climbing, bouldering, top roping, hang dogging, aid climbing.....call it what you will, it is all climbing, you vs the rock with your weapon of choice. The labels just don't matter.
Thank you for saying that. I think this is one of the best posts I have ever read on this site.
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eastvillage
Aug 14, 2006, 9:47 PM
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The entire USA is fulll of single pitch trad climbs.
The idea that single pitch climbing is somehow not "traditional" when removable gear is placed on the lead is absurd. Several posters have mentioned Fritz Weissner. Go to Connecticut, where all the cliffs are single pitch leads and try some of Fritz's early routes like Vector (5.8) at Ragged Mtn and Rat Crack (5.7) at East Peak. Even today these are committed leads that require strong traditional gear placing skills to be safely lead.
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caughtinside
Aug 14, 2006, 10:22 PM
Post #42 of 90
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In reply to: The entire USA is fulll of single pitch trad climbs. The idea that single pitch climbing is somehow not "traditional" when removable gear is placed on the lead is absurd. Several posters have mentioned Fritz Weissner. Go to Connecticut, where all the cliffs are single pitch leads and try some of Fritz's early routes like Vector (5.8) at Ragged Mtn and Rat Crack (5.7) at East Peak. Even today these are committed leads that require strong traditional gear placing skills to be safely lead.
'traditional gear placing skill'
Like nailing? You know fritz didn't have cams!
Absurd? Joshua tree was considered a 'practice' area for some time...
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watchme
Aug 14, 2006, 10:58 PM
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I'm working on a single pitch FA that will be lead on natural gear (no bolts). The fact that I've been working it on TR means that it is not a tradtional climb. I'm sport climbing on gear.
If I had gone for it on lead, and been lowered every time I fell, I would be traditional climbing.
I prefer the term "gear route" instead of what everyone today calls a "trad route". Trad means a style, gear means, well, you need gear beyond quick draws to protect it.
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boltdude
Aug 15, 2006, 12:29 AM
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In reply to: Think about it. back in the days of yore, what we think of today as single pitch trad cragging was considered to be mere practise.
These days, trad climbing just means that it's not a sport route. A few entirely bolted climbs fall in the "trad climbing" category, but most (like the B-Y) need at least a few pieces of trad pro - for anchors if nothing else (like many J-Tree "sport" routes). If a route was cleaned, rehearsed, and bolted top-down - but still needs a couple cams for a crack - then it's a trad route, just established on rap. A large number of famous cracks were done exactly that way, because they needed a lot of cleaning to find the crack under the dirt.
Ground-up is the best style, but it doesn't work for a modern definition of trad - half the sport routes at Owens were done ground-up, but they're still sport climbs. Ground-up is a style, and "trad route" is a route description. A good number of old-school trad routes were put up with non-traditional tactics like aiding the route and pre-placing fixed pins, etc. I think these days the specific route descriptions are more important than trying to redefine "trad", "sport", etc. Actually I really like some old guidebooks that gave very detailed info on the first ascent tactics - like the '83 Tuolumne guide, with details like: sieged, yo-yo'd, pro placed on aid, rehearsed, previous aid ladder freed, etc. Marty Lewis uses a very simple system for Owens and his other eastside guides: GU = ground up, TD = top down.
I like watchme's "gear route" idea, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we think people are going to start saying "sport route put up trad style" or "gear route put up top-down". Great details for a guidebook - too many words to say when you're out cragging...
PS And I have to say I hate it when people say "mixed" for routes with some bolts and some gear - mixed is mixed rock and snow/ice, dangit!!!
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dutyje
Aug 15, 2006, 11:50 AM
Post #45 of 90
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In reply to: So if you didn't bag a significant summit by the easiest way you could, it wasn't traditional.
YES!
So by that definition I now declare myself the Traddest Man on the Planet!
You think you're tradder than me? I dare you to find an easier way up ANYTHING I've ever done. Show me a wall that looks like nothing more than an overhanging sheet of glass, and I'll show you the 5.5 jug haul (or bushwhack?) variation to get to the top!
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dingus
Aug 15, 2006, 1:59 PM
Post #46 of 90
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In reply to: If a route was cleaned, rehearsed, and bolted top-down - but still needs a couple cams for a crack - then it's a trad route, just established on rap.
Nope. This is not in keeping with local tudes in NorCal I know that. I can name several sport routes off the top of my head that take cams and even my Mom would still call them sport climbs.
DMT
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kachoong
Aug 15, 2006, 2:19 PM
Post #47 of 90
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In reply to: In some sense I would agree. Trad might be overused, but it's just the common word which has evolved over time, just as climbing has. |
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notch
Aug 15, 2006, 3:14 PM
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I so wish that the climbing community would embrace "free" instead of Trad. It's been embraced as an ethic and style in mountain biking, snowboarding, skiing, etc. It, to me, signifies an unshackling from predetermined lines, competition, and compromise and represents a walk on the edge. Maybe it's a splitter 80' crack, a sparsely bolted face that will accept a couple of small nuts along the way or a 10 pitch alpine route. Heck yes it would be include predominantly placing your own gear, but with the free climb designation it becomes more of an ethic/lifestyle/mindset than a "style".
Free-climbing is where it's at.
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jt512
Aug 15, 2006, 4:02 PM
Post #49 of 90
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In reply to: These days, trad climbing just means that it's not a sport route.
You can't define a trad route as "any route that isn't a sport route"; for one reason, you haven't defined "sport route."
Deifnition: a sport route is a route that is entirely protected by fixed gear (usually bolts); and the gear has been placed (using any means) to minimize the consequences of falling, so that the leader can concentrate on making difficult moves.
Once sport climbing has been rigorously defined, it is tempting to say that anything else is trad climbing; but that isn't true. In traditional climbing, the first ascentionist cannot preplace gear, although subsequent climbers can take advantage of fixed gear placed by the first ascentionist. Otherwise, all gear, including bolts, must be placed on lead.
Therefore, there are free routes that don't fit into either the sport or trad category. They are generally just a mess. For instance, what is a rap-bolted route with an unbolted crack section? It isn't a sport route because it requires gear, and it isn't a trad route because the bolts were placed on rappel. Nobody who is anybody likes routes like this. Sport climbers don't like them because the climber has to fiddle with gear, which detracts from the emphasis on movement; and trad climbers don't like them because they were put up in "bad" style.
In reply to: A few entirely bolted climbs fall in the "trad climbing" category...
Many entirely bolted climbs fall into the trad category, precisely because they were bolted minimally and on lead. Such routes were typically bold to establish and many are still bold to repeat.
In reply to: If a route was cleaned, rehearsed, and bolted top-down - but still needs a couple cams for a crack - then it's a trad route, just established on rap.
A trad route, by definition, cannot be established on rappel. Placing gear on rappel is antithetical to traditional climbing.
In reply to: Ground-up is the best style, but it doesn't work for a modern definition of trad - half the sport routes at Owens were done ground-up, but they're still sport climbs.
Ground-up is the only style consistent with trad climbing; but, you're right: it neither defines trad climbing nor negates sport climbing. Any reasonable definition of sport climbing does not involve whether the route was bolted ground-up or top-down.
Jay
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kachoong
Aug 15, 2006, 4:16 PM
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^^ great post, especially coz you used the word antithetical to describe placing gear on rappel.... :righton:
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