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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 2:04 PM
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So at the new(New River Gorge), certain areas generally have fixed draws. These areas, for the most part, include Summersville and the Meadow. In these areas, the land management has no issue regarding fixed draws.
However, the NRG proper is owned and operated by the park service, and they have specific rules regarding fixed draws.
Also, the general standard (with very few exceptions) for Endless Wall (in NRG proper) has been that fixed draws are not acceptable.
So, I'm walking down the Endless Wall one day and see that someone has fixed draws on a particular route: The Sweedish Taboo. My first inclination was the rap of the top, and pull the draws. I wouldn't keep the draws, but rather post around: "Its against park service rules to have fixed draws on your routes, if you want your gear, its at the local gear sho". I refrained and, instead, decided to inquire the opions of others.
Basically here's the argument:
Its against past ethics and park service regulations to fix draws on a route at Endless Wall.
Should I pull these draws? What if the park service hikes though and see's all this crap hanging from the wall, blatanly in violation of their rules, this definitely looks bad!
So what should I do, pull the draws or just say screw it?
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 2:15 PM
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I don't believe that policy is well known or even real? There have been fixed draws on my stinking brain for years. You could climb the route and clean them on rappel :twisted:
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nthusiastj
Aug 31, 2006, 2:15 PM
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I'd leave some kind of note for the owners about the possible access issue implications (if there are any).
Maybe they just don't know. Maybe just take the first draw and leave a waterproof tag with your number.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 31, 2006, 2:17 PM
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fixed draws suck. makes the cliff look like a freakin Xmass tree. Since it is against park rules and may affect access pull them.
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 2:36 PM
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In reply to: I don't believe that policy is well known or even real? There have been fixed draws on my stinking brain for years. You could climb the route and clean them on rappel
Like I said...there are some exceptions, but for those on "My Stinking Brain" are just draws right? They're not quicklink, sling, biner (Hole style). Also, thats off the beaten path as far as most climbers are concerned. Of all the Endless Areas, the Kaymoor slabs get the most significant traffic and the fixed draws are quite blatant.
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tradgal
Aug 31, 2006, 2:37 PM
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I personally think people ought to pick their battles carefully and ask yourself why you are contemplating waging war on ONE route!!! Possibly even ONE person!
As you have all ready mentioned the Meadows and Summersville (outside the park) have fixed draws. But what about Fern Butress--part of endless (my stinking brain was mentioned), the Glory Hole at kaymoor, what about the Cirque--also at Endless...??? Are you going to go after those too? Have you clipped any of these particular fixed draws in the past? Is the park service (who I would imagine are aware that these draws are hung) thinking of removing the draws?
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 2:46 PM
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All of these routes which have had draws fixed in the past (The Hole for example) in NRG proper are having these anchors replaced by chains which are acceptable.
I can't really think of any routes at the Cirque that have fixed draws (except Proper Soul). I think "My Stinking Brain" is just regular draws that someone left on the route.
Besides, there has never been fixed draws in any of the mainstream Endless Wall Areas....
And I'm not going to wage war :D
My options were:
1. Remove Draws
2. Don't Remove Draws
3. Educate/inform the community.
:idea: I choose 3, hence the post.
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notapplicable
Aug 31, 2006, 2:46 PM
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People seem to be pretty evenly divided on this one. I have always thought that if you want to climb on pre-hung draws you should hang them yourself and then pull them at the end of each day. I don't spend a lot of time in the sport climbing arena so I maybe unaware of what is generally considered acceptable practices. I say pull them.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 31, 2006, 2:47 PM
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Waiting for the park service to have a problem is stoopid :roll: keep your area clean and avoid a problem with the park serice in the first place.
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 2:49 PM
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I sure hope the person who owns the draws says something, I'd love to hear their opinion.
I'm sure hanging the route is a Beeoch, and after they RP the route, they're going to pull them?
That'd be chill in my book.
-Danno
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dfoote07
Aug 31, 2006, 2:59 PM
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I think that you should pull the draws and leave a note. So far your suggestion have seemed to be the best. Good luck!
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tradgal
Aug 31, 2006, 3:02 PM
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I am not trying to wage war either...but...
You are acting as though you are comparing apples to oranges...when it's more like oranges to tangerines when talking about the type of pro that is left up whether it be a quick link or draw left behind. And also when comparing the location of these fixed draws. Fern butress is Endless and the Hole is part of the park system. That analogy wasn't the best...either way...
I just think it is a little hypocritical to question fixed draws on one route rather than all of them.
I can see this dilemna turning into the infamous and elusive "bolted crack" at Summersville and the drama that followed in Fayetteville... Danno, you know what I am talking about here...you were on the boat that day :wink:
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keinangst
Aug 31, 2006, 3:05 PM
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I say pull them...it's just like trash cleanup, IMO (of course, leave them at the base or something). If a route is accessible from the top so that draws can be hung on rappel in just a few minutes, then I see no excuse to leave them up for a multiday project. That's just lazy.
But like one of the above posters, I don't spend much time in sport areas. I just believe in taking you sh*t home at the end of the day.
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 3:08 PM
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If you wanted bolted cracks just go to the Meadow I am starting to wonder if that area was kept low profile to keep the ethics there under the radar. I got on two bolted crack 12a's there which would make awesome trad lines as well as one 13 which was wretchedly glued -- " boomerang" and one which I believe was blatantly drilled after the first ascent "Eye of Mordor" , which if it truly went clean without those pockets is a super proud line and they should be filled ASAP.
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marc801
Aug 31, 2006, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: However, the NRG proper is owned and operated by the park service, and they have specific rules regarding fixed draws. ... Its against past ethics and park service regulations to fix draws on a route at Endless Wall. Should I pull these draws? What if the park service hikes though and see's all this crap hanging from the wall, blatanly in violation of their rules, this definitely looks bad!
One poster in this thread mentioned that they "...don't believe that policy is well known or even real." It's interesting that other than being relatively buried in the 200 page Climbing Management Plan Environmental Assessment Draft of 2003 in "Preferred option B",
http://data2.itc.nps.gov/...cuments/NERI_CMP.pdf
there are only some very general "leave no trace" statements but nothing specific regarding fixed draws at Endless in either the climbing regulations and guidelines page:
http://www.nps.gov/...mbing.htm#Guidelines
or in the NPS Climbing Information Brochure (PDF document):
http://www.nps.gov/...eri/pdf/climbing.pdf
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j_ung
Aug 31, 2006, 4:05 PM
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I think I can clear a lot of this up. First, the NPS Climbing Information Brochure, though I'm certain you can still find copies around, predates the new Climbing Management Plan. (Note the mention of Blue Ridge Outdoors, instead of Water Stone! haha!)
The Plan specifically bans fixed draws in all NPS-managed areas, which, as I understand it, actually includes the Meadow. The Park does know about the fixed draws and removal of all of them is underway, though admittedly, it won't finish quickly. NRAC has been charged with that removal and it falls under our rebolting permit. In many cases, fixed draws will be replaced with chains, which are not in violation of the Plan. The Hole is a good example of this project. Many of those routes have already been attended to. The Coliseum, though it does not fall under the Plan, is another example.
It's not actually a good idea to remove fixed draws on your own. Rather, pease be patient and let us get to them on scheduled rebolting and replacement days. If, however, you'd like to volunteer to help out, give Kenny a shout at Water Stone: 304-574-2425.
Recognize that there is a difference between fixed draws and project draws, which are not forbidden by the Plan, nor by commonly accepted area style. Removing project draws, however, is not commonly accepted. How to tell the difference? Ask around. Ask at Roger's. Ask at Water Stone -- Kenny Parker and Gene Kistler are probably the most knowledgeable about this and both serve on the NRAC Board of Directors. If you hang project draws, please be reasonable. A weekend? No problem. An entire season left hanging unused? Could be a problem.
In closing, there is no "battle" here and NRAC and the Park are on the same page with all of it. We are all bound by the Climbing Management Plan, end of story. If anybody has questions about other parts of the Climbing management plan, I'm happy to either answer them or go find the answers for ya.
Jay
NRAC
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 4:17 PM
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Ah the voice of reasonality....though check it out, its 17 to 17...thats pretty amazing!
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j_ung
Aug 31, 2006, 4:22 PM
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18-18 now! :lol:
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 4:30 PM
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sheeeeesh 20 to 20...talk about a splitter, I wanna jam that stuff!
-Danno
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nthusiastj
Aug 31, 2006, 4:33 PM
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Looks like a bug in your poll.
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 4:44 PM
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That would be a total bummer! Can an admin fix it? (watch its like 50-2 CHOP!)
-Danno
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marc801
Aug 31, 2006, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: I think I can clear a lot of this up.
There you go, short circuiting pages of spray, malcontent, ill-conceived arguments, and pompous sermonizing with facts, logic, and reason.
Man, you're no fun at all!!!
8^)
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cintune
Aug 31, 2006, 4:52 PM
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If the NPS is already on it, best to stay away. You could bet busted for interfering, or accused of having put them up yourself in the first place. "If they're not yours, sir, why are you disturbing them?"
Putting up chains seems to contradict the whole no-trace reason for not wanting the draws. Unless the reason is long-term safety, which I suppose it would be as far as the park guys are concerned.
But why haven't they been bootied already? Whoever hung them must not care if they get swiped or not, so they probably would just put up new ones if the old ones go missing. Climbing ethics is a really strange kind of ethics.
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 5:03 PM
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Well, they actually had draws on them before and they got swiped (it wasn't me).
So they went back and used quick links with webbing and a biner. More on the "permanent" side.
If i had my project draws stolen off something and I wanted to keep project draws on it, I'd do the same thing!
This is definitely an interesting discussion. FYI I have no intentions of removing them.
-Danno
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 5:42 PM
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maybe this should be a different thread but really what is the deal with bolted cracks, drilled pockets and glue at the meadow. NB. I didn't notice any fixed draws.
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 6:33 PM
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I have a feeling that it was probably the same person who had them swipped before, I did a little seaching (focusing on LITTLE) and found the original thread, I've contacted the dude.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=80777
-Danno
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kachoong
Aug 31, 2006, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: My options were: 1. Remove Draws 2. Don't Remove Draws 3. Educate/inform the community. :idea: I choose 3, hence the post.
Number 1 and then number 3.
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 6:41 PM
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the person who had them up before did the route months ago and walked under the very route looked up and wonderd out loud whose draws they were? last weekend!
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 6:46 PM
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Let me rephrase, i send a PM to the dude, I didn't hear back yet.
-Danno
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banjobob
Aug 31, 2006, 7:25 PM
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:twisted: :!: :x
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banjobob
Aug 31, 2006, 7:53 PM
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what needs to be discussed is not the fixed draws but the total !@#$@!#
that has gone around to Sport routes that are 10 years old and decided that they should not have bolts anymore. recently bolts have been removed from Orange Oswald at summersville by a coward who does not even consult the public, locals, or the guy who did the first ascent, before applying his own ethics. he feels that because he is an AMGA certified instructor that he can hide behind their banner and is above the law. when in fact he is giving the AMGA and climbers a bad reputation in the eyes of the park service at the new. he does nothing constructive for the area even when invited to help with trails, rebolting, etc. yet he and his guide service account for a fair amount of erosion and usage in the gorge. infact he drills anchors in the middle of "Chasing spiders to the right" at Junkyard so that he can guide the bottom half in the rain but regulates on the rest of the community for having sport climbs. lets forget about the fix draws and reel that guy in!!! down with the J.T. A ROCK SOLID LOSER!
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 8:32 PM
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Wow that is pretty personal. How about Eye of Mordor did he do that too? :P
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bsf
Aug 31, 2006, 10:09 PM
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Ha ha!!! Looks like Peace and Love prevailing in beautiful Fayette-Nam!!! What’s the matter? You can’t climb because of the heat, humidity, and non-stop rain so you resort to bashing one another on the compooter instead??? What’s truly hilarious is that you’re probably all sitting at Cathedral right now writing about each other from across the room!
In case this climbing business is too complicated to figure out on your own here are a few guidelines to help you out:
1. Don’t put bolts where removable gear can be placed.
If you do, don’t be surprised to see your bolts removed sometime in the future, possibly even 10 years down the road.
If you want everything to be easy, mindless pulling, find a gym. Or pick a new sport. Climbing can be tough and, don’t feel bad, it’s not for everyone. I hear golfers get to drive around in carts and let other people carry their gear around. Start there.
2. Don’t chip or glue holds onto the rock.
If you do, don’t be surprised if someone removes the glue or fills in the holes, especially if the route can be done without said alterations.
It’s not cool, you’re not being creative, and yes, everyone can tell it’s manufactured.
If this doesn’t help clear things up you likely need to:
A. Actually climb a rock. Go with a friend it’s even funner than it looks! And by all means try the one with the fixed draws on it... it's easier that way!
B. Get laid. Go with a friend it’s even funner than it looks!
If A. doesn’t help, try B. One or the other is bound to clear up your attitude and put things into perspective. Or, heck, go wild and do'em both at the same time, just be sure to use a gri-gri. (Or a munter-mule if you "just don' trust that grigri" It is french after all.)
Because what looks ever worse than (GASP!) tiny bits of nylon hanging from an obscure section of cliffline that the NPS never even bothers to visit is a bunch of climbers wanking off about it on the intercyberwebnet.
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banjobob
Sep 1, 2006, 1:54 PM
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if climbing was as simple in all dimensions as you lead us to believe than why are there organizations like the access fund dealing with things called access problems and areas getting closed down. in some places it's as much a crime to place a bolt as it is to remove it due to management plans that are in place to protect climber safety. with the case of orange Oswald, the entire cliff can and has been done trad but i think you would be hard pressed to find support for removing all the bolts. so the issue is where and how you draw the line. and if the line is muddy than is it worth it to remove a select few when they all could go. i mean the bolt remover at the gorge is choosing to split hairs by distinguishing a difference between vertical and horizontal cracks. he willingly held onto and climbed past and clipped next to horizontal cracks on the route to get to the ones he felt should be removed. if vertical slots should not get bolts than why has the horizontal slots been deemed acceptable? personally i think the gunks have it correct because there is no difference given the the orientation of the protect able slot, crack, pocket, whatever if it takes gear. leave it alone. but when a standard is unequally held and enforced by the person regulating what good is it. why draw a line is you keep changing it and stepping over it. i know in a perfect world.... blah blah blah. but if climbing means something to people than why not discuss the issues debate and help reach common ground so it continues. no one takes issues seriously when it is not in their backyard but they love to go visit. and yes to answer your question it is raining.
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redpointitorfall
Sep 1, 2006, 3:55 PM
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Dan
Sent you a PM...as nnowinowski said I have see the draws.....not mine
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sick_tom
Sep 1, 2006, 7:54 PM
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Dan
The quickdraws are not permanent, fixed draws. They are Mike William's quickdraws. He is working on the route and is close to sending. He used screw links on the draws so that they would be less likely to be stolen (something which happens way too much at the New). And they were all old leaver links taken off other routes, so if they did get stolen Mike would not lose as much.
Tom
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curator
Sep 1, 2006, 10:41 PM
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They're not fixed draws they are my draws. (mike williams) When I send the route they will be relocated to a different route at the new. As stated before it is acceptable and legal practice to leave draws on active projects. Why you're first inclination would be to rap down and "remove" them is beyond me. I had draws stolen off of leap of faith last year and it pissed me off. Just to clear things up lets examine what is fixed and what is booty.
A string of draws on a sport route: not yours.
a bail biner left at the crux of a route: take it.
a quick link: take it
a single biner on a bolt at the base of a roof: not yours. This is likely a cleaner biner left so that climbers can lower off and clean the lower half of the route without taking a death pendulum. Interestingly they disappear all the time.
a single biner left on the last bolt below wicked rusty anchors: not yours.
while cleaning and lowering this biner "backs up" the anchor. Don't take it.
A single fixed draw at a very difficult or reachy clip: not yours for obvious reasons.
The new river gorge: not yours. It is not the job of any individual climber to police, manage, or monitor the crag. This is a big playground. Let me play the games I want to. As for the slew of people that voted to steal my draws. You are all idiots and God doesn't love you anymore.
Banjo Bob for president!
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neoamhas
Sep 1, 2006, 11:00 PM
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i second that emotion.
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el_jerko
Sep 2, 2006, 12:24 AM
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After carefully weighing all the fats and opinions stated here there is only one reasonable answer; take half the draws.
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j_ung
Sep 2, 2006, 12:39 AM
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In reply to: They're not fixed draws they are my draws. (mike williams) When I send the route they will be relocated to a different route at the new. As stated before it is acceptable and legal practice to leave draws on active projects. Why you're first inclination would be to rap down and "remove" them is beyond me. I had draws stolen off of leap of faith last year and it pissed me off. Just to clear things up lets examine what is fixed and what is booty. A string of draws on a sport route: not yours. a bail biner left at the crux of a route: take it. a quick link: take it a single biner on a bolt at the base of a roof: not yours. This is likely a cleaner biner left so that climbers can lower off and clean the lower half of the route without taking a death pendulum. Interestingly they disappear all the time. a single biner left on the last bolt below wicked rusty anchors: not yours. while cleaning and lowering this biner "backs up" the anchor. Don't take it. A single fixed draw at a very difficult or reachy clip: not yours for obvious reasons. The new river gorge: not yours. It is not the job of any individual climber to police, manage, or monitor the crag. This is a big playground. Let me play the games I want to. As for the slew of people that voted to steal my draws. You are all idiots and God doesn't love you anymore. Banjo Bob for president!
Mike, I think there's actually a bug in the poll. I don't think a slew of people voted to take your draws. Thanks for explaining. If anybody asks me why they're up there, I'll pass on that they're project draws. But be aware, while it may seem like a good idea to use quicklinks because they're less likely to be stolen, it makes them look like fixed draws, which are more likely to be "removed," since fixed draws are now illegal. And thanks to Dan for doing the research necessary to find out what's up.
As for Jim Taylor and the Summersville bolt chopping, I highly recommend that you find Jim and tell him exactly what you think, in a rational, adult fashion, of course. Personally, I agree with Jim that the route that got chopped should never have been bolted, but I hate to see a vigilante thinking that he speaks for the community, too. Most of us up here are a good bit more mature. :wink:
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caughtinside
Sep 2, 2006, 9:16 PM
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banjo bob has my write-in vote.
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climbsomething
Sep 3, 2006, 3:07 AM
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In reply to: I just believe in taking you sh*t home at the end of the day.
Yet just before:
In reply to: I say pull them...it's just like trash cleanup, IMO (of course, leave them at the base or something). |
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dbrayack
Sep 5, 2006, 11:58 AM
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Dude, I have no idea who you are, but really, RC.com isn't the place to be dissing people personally, I don't care how much you dislike someone or their actions, this is no place to be directing personal attacks.
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banjobob
Sep 5, 2006, 2:07 PM
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dude, by posing a question about a specific route with specific draws on them, a general poll or question becomes an attack on the person who hung those draws. what's the difference. the poor guy had to get online to defend his actions because you gave details. i have yet to read a forum on this site that doesn't talk smack in some way. all in good fun. even when some poor newbie has a legitimate question that we have all had to ask at some point when we started climbing, they get hammered. i mean you titled your forum " I want to pull fixed draws at NRG" then named the route and draws specifically. that seems just as personal because you are still singling someone out and the problem you personally have with his actions. really no difference maybe we are more alike than you think.
if i hurt your feelings i apologize. if the kitchen is too hot...........
and P>S> you do know me I'm your neighbor we talked the other day.
have good one. tell JT i said hello.
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pettsnjam
Sep 5, 2006, 5:17 PM
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50 to 50
WOW that's a split decision!
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mr8615
Sep 5, 2006, 6:37 PM
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Now, if only we could take all the hot air and turn it into energy, perhaps this Saturday at the trail day? Dan, thanks for the reasonable, investigative approach. A friend of mine 'cleaned' Matt's draws from the previous thread, they were returned when he realized his mistake. I personally can't wait to see the fixed draws throughout the NRG go, webbing and quicklinks are mank, chains (where necessary) will both improve safety and aesthetics, IMHO.
See you all Saturday, you all have a vested interest in the New, so I'm certain that you'll be there, right?
Mark
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toejam
Sep 5, 2006, 8:17 PM
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The poll is not tied, the poll software for the forum is buggy.
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j_ung
Sep 5, 2006, 8:54 PM
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In reply to: Now, if only we could take all the hot air and turn it into energy, perhaps this Saturday at the trail day? Dan, thanks for the reasonable, investigative approach. A friend of mine 'cleaned' Matt's draws from the previous thread, they were returned when he realized his mistake. I personally can't wait to see the fixed draws throughout the NRG go, webbing and quicklinks are mank, chains (where necessary) will both improve safety and aesthetics, IMHO. See you all Saturday, you all have a vested interest in the New, so I'm certain that you'll be there, right? Mark
Excellent post! Thanks, Mark.
In reply to: dude, by posing a question about a specific route with specific draws on them, a general poll or question becomes an attack on the person who hung those draws. what's the difference. the poor guy had to get online to defend his actions because you gave details. i have yet to read a forum on this site that doesn't talk smack in some way. all in good fun. even when some poor newbie has a legitimate question that we have all had to ask at some point when we started climbing, they get hammered. i mean you titled your forum " I want to pull fixed draws at NRG" then named the route and draws specifically. that seems just as personal because you are still singling someone out and the problem you personally have with his actions. really no difference maybe we are more alike than you think. if i hurt your feelings i apologize. if the kitchen is too hot........... and P>S> you do know me I'm your neighbor we talked the other day. have good one. tell JT i said hello.
Shawn, I understand you feel strongly about bolt chopping at the New. We all do, including Danno, who is most definitely as against it as you are.
Please try not to take it out on him. His question of who put these particular draws up is reasonable, considering their resemblence to fixed, rather than project draws. While it may seem like a personal affront to Mike, knowing Dan, I'm reasonably certain it is not. And, considering the Park's stated policy against fixed draws, I think it was legitimate. Now we know the truth. Problem solved. And hopefully, if somebody else mistakes them for what they aren't, that person will check here first, learn the truth and let them be.
Hell, we all live within five miles of each other. We can talk this out over beers, if you want. :D
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mr8615
Sep 5, 2006, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: [jealousy] Hell, we all live within five miles of each other. We can talk this out over beers, if you want. :D [/jealousy]
There better be some beers involved this weekend!
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banjobob
Sep 6, 2006, 12:44 AM
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jay,
your a little late on the topic, all day long dan and i have been discussing this in private. he knows there was no attack on him. it's all in good fun dont be so protective. hes a big boy. it all good. discussion and debate are always good no matter what your stance is.
cheers
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j_ung
Sep 6, 2006, 1:06 AM
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Yah, Dan's here now, so I heard. Glad to hear there's no bad blood between the two of you.
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rockclimbergabor
Sep 6, 2006, 1:11 AM
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no way dude.. especially not at summersville.. the person will take their draws off after they do the climb
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banjobob
Sep 6, 2006, 1:31 AM
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as i stated in my thread there are bigger fish to fry and while fixed draws were being discussed then why not take it a step further to what really is a problem here. the fixed anchors and bolts being used incorrectly we have to regulate ourselves or the non-climbing community will. and we know that wont be pretty. thus websites like these that have forums. thinking outside the box and our town i feel is a good thing.
until this weekend
yes i'll be there for trail day "hot air and all" as i have been for over 12 years. i welcome those who dont live here and the local guide services to be there as well. because it benefits everyone
cheers with beers!
banjobob
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dbrayack
Sep 6, 2006, 12:02 PM
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Oh yah, I have no issues about you smacking me around a little (infact, I kinda of enjoy it), I was more stepping in about mentioning another person who isn't here to defend themselves.
My bad, I shoulda quoted the particular portion that I was saying: "I think this is bad...BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD!"
:lol:
In reply to: ...what needs to be discussed is not the fixed draws but the total !@#$@!#...
That one...I guess I was the kid in the school yard that always tried to stick up for people when they weren't around...of course I was a pretty small kid and always got beat up too... :idea: So I learned to shoot. :idea:
Hey Banjobob, I'll bring you a beer to the next meeting if you bring me one?
-Danno
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robinson_321
Oct 17, 2006, 10:38 PM
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To bicker about whether a draw has a biner on the top or not sort of spoils this website with arguments.
The title of it should have been if you really want to get pissed off then read this.
All of the people that said to take the draws are from out of town and probably have no idea what they are responding to.
The person bashing JT also has no idea what they are talking about either. That guy has put in tons of hours fixing things up down there.
He probably has more freakin experience than all of you goobers put together.
I don't think the new needs any more sheriffs than it already has.
If someone can't afford draws with biners on both ends does that mean that they can't climb on endless wall.
This is my opinion and I submitted it because this thread upset me and I also care about the new.
This really was like high school all over again. Let's tell on someone.
This should have been saved for the nrac meeting.
Lee
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banjobob
Oct 18, 2006, 8:18 PM
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Lee,
i happen to know quite a bit about the New. I have taken the time to learn the ropes, ethics, history, what is acceptable and not acceptable in the Gorge for over 14 years. i was around when many of these debates were first hitting the scene. chopping someones bolts has never been acceptable here. I've witnessed the drama of JT for years now and the guy is the new's and his worst enemy. where has JT been for all the cleanups, trail days etc. he was out there all right, climbing routes while we fixed the trail that he frequents more than anyone else. you are right on one point, the new does not need another sheriff that's why his "vigilante sheriffing" needs to be put in check. my point is if your gonna "sheriff" others, hold yourself to the same standards. for instance don't add a middle anchor in a trad route and then the next day chop two bolts on a sport route near a crack. what I'm tired of is the river of double standards that flow through the gorge. if you have an opinion even if it is different from mine or someone else GREAT!!
but stick to your position don't waffle or redraw the line when it's good for you or your situation. if he doesn't want bolts near cracks or whatever then chop them all. go chop Legacy, Apollo Reed, they've all been done trad. if his convictions were strong enough to chop the bolts at summersville or he wanted to make a statement fine but why does his position change? because if he chops those routes the wrath of god would be upon him and he knows it. he stirs the @#&$ just enough but waffles on the home stretch. the actions that resemble high school are those of JT. This is not an NRAC issue they are not the police either. the problem is ours as a community.. local or not. you re right we don't need Barney Fife with his one bullet, we just need standards whatever they are to be held.
take care,
Banjo Bob Out 8^)
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circa86
Dec 21, 2011, 3:54 PM
Post #58 of 60
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Registered: Aug 15, 2010
Posts: 16
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Thats to bad. I'm not comfortable placing gear yet and was hoping to get some sport in this upcoming summer. I'm driving a long way...about 12 hours. is it worth the trip anymore?
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