What a great story, Mal. Very touching.

Sincere condolences to family and friends.

Hello Everyone,

Things are surreal in Lander today. We have planned a memorial gathering for Todd on Saturday, the 28th of October. The time is 3pm or thereabouts, potluck, etc. It will be held at the Sinks Canyon Center outside of Lander. email me at sbechtel@wyoming.com or give a call at 307-349-1246 if you need any info.

Thanks so much. Amy wants to make sure it's known that all climbers are welcome...just as it always was.

Keep the messages coming...every one of them is helping his family.


Steve Bechtel

One more thing...
For those of you who are interested a memorial has been established for Amy, Hannah, Jake and Sarah.

Skinner Memorial Fund
Atlantic City Federal Credit Union
704 West Main Street
Lander, WY 82520

Thanks,
Steve Bechtel

I just had an arguement with a climbing partner about tying off the ends of your rope when rapelling I said you *always* should and she disagreed ... I hear he was descending, I hope he didn't space on the rappell that would really be a downer.

Tim added some new details I was unaware of. All reports I've seen indicated Todd's device and locking biner were still attached to the rope.

Yea they said they could still see his belay device and the biner on the fixed rope. That REALLY sucks, a failed harness? Never hear of that these days, I wonder if it was an old model? Nylon loop? Not threaded through the actual waistbelt? I'm an engineer so I hate to hear failure scenarios.

Or it could be unclipping of a biner, a pilot error, which is quite common. I guess we'll have to wait for a better report.

...helped put Hueco Tanks on the map, with his numerous hard free ascents including When Legends Die (5.13b), at the time one of America's hardest sport routes.

Then there was the time we almost came to blows in China. He had used all my gear on his sport climbing projects on Moonhill. But I wanted to shoot a first ascent of the many spires in the region. Todd thought that it had no place in the film, this was about his sport climbing achievements, not 'mountaineering' up some crumbing cobra infested spire... On the day of the shoot, he masterminded a schedule that left me without gear and a climber to shoot. I stormed up to Moonhill and called Todd out on his sabotage. He had no choice but to pull my ropes off his rehearsal routes. I found an American student in Yangshuo with a minor amount of climbing experience and we set off. But Todd's delays had worked to our disadvantage and we never summitted the formation. That night I accused Todd of deliberate sabotage. His honor was being called into question and he puffed out his chest. "Where I come from, when men have differences they cannot resolve by negotiation, they resolve it by force." I sat in my chair, "Go ahead Todd, hit me." I said calmly. Todd didn't move. I jumped up, tipping over my chair and yelled at him, "C'mon Todd, hit me!" The rabble of hundreds of Chinese voices suddenly stopped as all eyes were now on us. "time to go to Thailand." replied Todd.

Mike Strassman

I still use his quotes today,

I always wondered why everyone always said to clip into this when belaying and descending. I have been stopped climbing at the gym by guys who work there and told not to clip into both loops but to clip into the single loop in the front. Why would you ever depend on a single point of failure? I heard people say that that is what the loop is for and clipping or tying into the loop on the waistband and the loop between your legs was bad juju. I feel vindicated now for not listening to all these "experts".

I heard people say that that is what the loop is for and clipping or tying into the loop on the waistband and the loop between your legs was bad juju. I feel vindicated now for not listening to all these "experts".

Uh, you're SUPPOSED to tie into both loops!! as for one point of failure, saxfiend is right, we do it all the time on single ropes.

INSPECT YOUR GEAR PEOPLE!!! retire it when it needs to be

belay loops are for belaying and rappeling. ...
an intact belay loop is strong enough not to need redundance.
just like a single rope. but if its damaged...

"It's really affecting the climbing community because harness failure is pretty unusual -- it is not supposed to happen," said Ken Yager, president and founder of Yosemite Climbing Association. "It's gotten people thinking about their old harnesses now. I know I'm going to go out and buy a new one."

The part that broke, called the belay loop, is designed to be the strongest part of the climbing harness, but Hewett, 34, said Skinner's harness was old.

"It was actually very worn," Hewett said. "I'd noted it a few days before, and he was aware it was something to be concerned about." Friends of Skinner said he had ordered several new harnesses but they hadn't yet arrived in the mail.

On Monday's climb, Hewitt said the belay loop snapped while Skinner was hanging in midair underneath an overhanging ledge.

"I knew exactly what had happened right when it happened," he said. "It was just disbelief. It was too surreal." Stunned and in shock after watching his friend fall, he checked his equipment. "I wanted to make sure that what had caused the accident wasn't going to happen to me," he said. "I then went down as quick as I could."

Hewett said he knew there was no hope. A search-and-rescue team found Skinner's body, wearing the harness with the broken belay loop, about 4 p.m. Monday on the rocks near Bridalveil Falls.

tie-in points (waist harness and leg loop loop thingys) are for tiing in.

belay loops are for belaying and rappeling. if you use tie-in points, you cuold cross load something. plus, its not very comfy.

an intact belay loop is strong enough not to need redundance. just like a single rope. but if its damaged...

You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??

My heart goes out to Todd's family. What a tragedy. I wish them strength and many loved ones around them to support them.

I have seen in the past that it is customary to start a separate thread to analyze an accident and leave the original thread for condolences and remembrances, out of respect for the climber and his or her family. Perhaps we should do that here.

I suspect he meant on belay. You catch leader falls when you belay.

Todd...was by far one of the friendly climbers I have ever been around. His big smile is forever in my mind-eye.

The other common practice is to attach a friction knot to one leg loop. Hanging from this might be rather startling & uncomfortable, but it might work.

It is incredibly uncomfortable, and I've only tried it while upright and switching rappels. If we are operating undere the assumption that your belay loop has failed, then there is nothing keeping you from falling-out of your leg loops except your thigh straps (mine are dinky little elastic bands).
If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest a klemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar. The klemheist is easier to loosen once weighted, and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to extrude your upper body (or lower, in the case you become inverted) through your swami belt. Placing the stopper-knot above your rappel device will also decrease the extension in the system in the event of failure, and will prevent whip-lash.

fmd, check todd skinner accident...

It is incredibly uncomfortable, and I've only tried it while upright and switching rappels. If we are operating undere the assumption that your belay loop has failed, then there is nothing keeping you from falling-out of your leg loops except your thigh straps (mine are dinky little elastic bands).
If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest a klemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar. The klemheist is easier to loosen once weighted, and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to extrude your upper body (or lower, in the case you become inverted) through your swami belt. Placing the stopper-knot above your rappel device will also decrease the extension in the system in the event of failure, and will prevent whip-lash.

As bill413 had said, if you put the back up onto your rap loop, and it fails the prussic or klemhiest isnt going to do much. Every class I had taken in the last 5 years had taught the back up goes BELOW the rap device and that the other end goes into your leg loop. It is easier to release if you loose control of your back up, there is less force on the back up cord or webbing and yes it will be uncomfortable if the rap loop breaks, but you arent going to deck.

the reason that most people give for placing your backup BELOW the belay device is because you can shockload your backup and depending on the device, damage your rope.

what i do is extend my belay device (shorter than my weighted, upward reach) and place my backup (a petzl shunt - which is a mechanical prussik) on a biner on my belay loop.

more details -- I have a 7mm cord that is girth hitched through my tie-in points extending my rap device about 2 feet off of my harness, once again my backup is on my belay loop. This system is redundant and i can still reach above my belay device to unweight it, should i need to.

Another way to eliminate your fear of the belay loop breaking is to get a metolius safe-tech harness. Almost every piece on that harness is rated to withstand a fall (except for the leg bungees in the back, i believe)

or you can go all out and get a metolius safe-tech waldo - which has 2 belay loops.

hope that helps

My mistake, I shall detail the parts of a harness for those too unedjumicated to figure it out. I submit that tying the klemheist into the upper tie-in point on the harness is more safe because it prevents falling out of your harness during inversion. Tying your stopper knot to the (failing) belay loop would not be redundant, making the whole venture pointless. Whereas it is easier to release the knot when placed below, it is going to hurt like hell in the event of failure. In the interest of conserving both time and energy, I propose that anyone who is actually concerned about the possibility of their belay loop breaking should immediately purchase a new harness.

Isn't a belay loop called a belay loop because its real purpose is to hold your ATC while you're belaying? I've used mine to rap from, but it makes me a little nervous, even though I've seen many, many MANY times that "It's the strongest point on your harness." 99% of the time, I'll put my locking biner around the waistband AND leg-connecting-web-thingy (did someone call that a "rodeo bar"?). And when I do that, it FEELS more secure, because there's more strong webbing under the biner. So, tell me why it's known as a "belay loop" and not a "rappel loop." (This thread is the very first time I've seen it called a "rap loop.")

I see my initial post digressing into a discussion re diff methods of backing up a rap. That's ok. But really, I was just thinking out loud, and wondering how far one should go in providing redundancy? Some links are stronger than others (both due to their material properties as well as to their configuration), but is it ever reasonable to rely on one single link if with modicum of effort a backup can be provided?

...and wondering how far one should go in providing redundancy? ...but is it ever reasonable to rely on one single link if with modicum of effort a backup can be provided?