That's about the extent of what I know, too. Talked to the climbing ranger today. He added that the two of them didn't actually know each other very well. Might be a case of not screening partners before roping up with them. He also told me the girl claimed the climber was out of sight, which I don't understand. There's clear line of sight from the base all the way up, IIRC. That leaves me wondering if perhaps it wasn't a different route. Flight of the Gumby maybe? (Yes, I see the irony. No need to point it out.)

The route in question, Greenpiece, is 10b. It's kind of a one move wonder, but the one move is tricky. Many a 5.10 climber has been surprised by it and either bailed or found him/herself airborne.

Yeah, I heard it from my husband last night. He was there and retrieved the guy's quickdraws.

All right, I'm lena_chita's husband. This guy and the girl started with Flight of the Gumby, but I heard that it was too hard for her, so they moved to the left. The guy asked me if the route I was belaying was Boing. I said no. It was Bicycle Club and the Boing is around the corner. I pointed them at the Green Piece and Low Voltage as the easiest routes after FotG.

The guy was very cheerful and self-confident. He asked the girl if she minded to try the Green Piece. She was very shy and it looked like this was her first or one of the first climbing outdoors. They moved over. We finished with our route and the last I saw was this guy clipping the first draw on the Green Piece. He was doing it kinda awkward.

We went around the corner to the HArdcore female thrash. Then I heard girl's scream, buzz of the rope and a thud of impact. My friend next to me said, 'I don't like the sound of it.'

We went over and there was a group of climbers around the fallen guy. He was very pale, but breathing. There was some blood bubbling out of his mouth, but it could be from a broken tooth. He was complaining about lower back pain. He could move his feet and feel his toes.

His rope was clipped into the last bolt of the Green Piece. There were no draws at the chains. An ATC-XP was still on the rope a few feet above the ground.

There was a doctor and a first response expert among the climbers. They did everything very quick and professionally. The guy was extremely lucky to have them around. The FR guy was holding his head and neck still all the time until the paramedics came. The doctor was examining him, talking to him constantly to make sure he was conscious, and taking his vitals. Another young man was wiping blood and applying pads to the guy's bleeding lacerations.

So, what happened? As far as I heard, the girl and the guy had climbed together in the gym only twice. She did not even know his last name. It sounded like she was paying him the rope when he fell at the pumpy crux right below the chains. I've seen people taking 20 ft falls from this spot. It may actually benefit from an extra bolt.

She might have released her grip on the rope while giving him slack. As he fell, she panicked and could not grab the rope back.

He fell about 60 ft and hit this hard-packed dirt feet first. There were two craters. Then he skidded about 10-15 feet down the slope with rocks and roots on it.

Paramedics gave him an IV. I did not see how they transported the guy to the helicopter. Apparently it took some effort to carry him over the stream bed. With help of Melissa, an experienced trad climber from the Gunks, I took down his draws and the rope and gave them to a couple from New Jersey, Melissa and Scott. Scott ran up the hill with the guy's gear to deliver it to his car, helicopter, or whatever.

I did not climb any more that day. When we left, there were two O-shaped biners, a toothbrush and a roll of tape on a colored string on a rock, which could have belonged to the injured guy.

I should write a book full of stories

I should write a book full of stories

Yeah these reports are bummers. Man I have to be more selective on choosing belayers....

Hope the dude is ok.

Thanks to everyone that helped him!

I see people belaying and letting go of the rope with their brake hand on every trip to any crag. I'm not surprised that strnagers don't say anything but it sucks. I'm going to start being an ass and telling people they are belaying wrong.

I too hope the dude is okay. I also hope the belayer doesn't get too wrapped up in feeling like crap. It's likely that no one told her that catching a fall is hard and that letting go of the rope for any amount of time, no matter how short, can be diasterous.

Dave

From what I heard (whatever the hearsay is worth) the belayer was very inexperienced, possibly lead belaying for the first time.

I take note to avoid these people like Phoenix asphalt on a July day.

i see people taking there breaking hand off the rope all the time when i go climbing. this is my first year climbing so i feel a little out of place being the noob and calling someone out, but do you think i should mention it to them? ive never taken my breaking hand off the rope but i do see people switch hands (always leaving one had on the rope), granted i dont think i would ever practice this technique because i could totally see it leading to bad habbits but do you guys consider it a safe means of belaying?

i do see people switch hands (always leaving one had on the rope), granted i dont think i would ever practice this technique because i could totally see it leading to bad habbits but do you guys consider it a safe means of belaying?

As for the suggestion that green piece needs another bolt.....that is definitely not the answer. We're not in a gym.

From now on I'll be teaching beginners how to "look at the picture" and properly load a grigri, and how atc's are for advanced climbers only.

Give a beginner a grigri. If she had a grig this guy would be walking around right now, not dealing with years of rehab. And this girl wouldn't have to spend the rest of her life feeling guilty for almost killing a dude she barely knew. People think it's so important that the proper progression be used in teaching rock climbing. Tell me that again when you're standing there looking at a guy that is all fucked up and can barely breath.

As for the suggestion that green piece needs another bolt.....that is definitely not the answer. We're not in a gym.

This approch sounds reasonable...

Of course the belayer was at fault not the device but.....in this case in particular if she had a grigri this wouldn't have happened. That is a fact. If the belayer had a grigri instead of an atc we wouldn't have a seriously injured climber in the hospital. No one can argue that. She didn't catch the fall, the grigri would have done it for her.

All I'm suggesting is, why not make climbing as safe as possible and as easy to learn as possible for the beginner.

When you've got a beginner with a blank slate of a brain it's just as easy to teach proper grigri use as it is to teach proper atc use. And as a bonus the grigri offers an extra margin of safety.

I apologize for my emotionally charged previous post and admit that it was a touch close minded. But I think this is a worth while debate to have and hope that knowledgeable folks will respond.

For me to really push my limits -- onsighting -- I have to be with one of those in the top tier. I don't pick the people in it. My trust in them, which is absolute and unflinching, is not something I can choose to give. When I'm maxed out, cruxing way above gear and I know the catch will have to be a gold glove winner, I'll either trust or not, commit or not, and there isn't an iota of conscious thought that goes into the decision. It's all gut instinct.

My second tier is a big one. I trust those folks, but only enough to push through a hard redpoint burn or on routes that are a little below my max. I have to convince myself to go for it. They hear, "Watch me," fairly often. They're close to top tier, but they just haven't quite earned my subconscious trust. They haven't done anything to not be in the top tier, but I like I said, I can't choose who's up there. Most of my regular partners are in this tier.

Third tier contains many people I've never climbed with and people who I think are good belayers, but maybe they haven't proven themselves yet. I'll climb with them, but I want to see them belay and hold falls first, and even then, I probably won't push it.

I won't let anybody in the fourth tier belay me without a back-up belayer who I trust. These folks are either inexperienced belayers or I've seen them belay and it scares me. Some of them are accidents waiting to happen. Some of them have dropped climbers. Some of them just don't seem quite comfortable with it yet, or maybe they use a belay technique that I don't like.

Let's debate the merits of belay devices in another thread and attempt for the first time in RC.com history to keep this one about the accident.

Wishing the best to the injured climber!

Of course the belayer was at fault not the device but.....in this case in particular if she had a grigri this wouldn't have happened. That is a fact.

...under no circumstances I can imagine. Gri-gri or tube-style device is a false dichotomy. There are a whole range of other options.

Mike, with all due respect, you're citing one accident and ignoring all the others that involved beginners with Gri-gris. I think you're missing the common thread, which is the inexperienced belayer. The only truly safe approach to this conundrum is not to lead AT ALL with an inexperienced belayer holding your rope alone, no matter what type of device he or she is using.

If you are using a n00b to do your belay PLEASE
GIVE THEM A GRI GRI AND NOT an ATC


The chances of them locking a Gri Gri is 1%

The chances of them locking the rope with ATC is 0

Zero% vs. 1%

Which one sound better?

Ps
That 1% is by act of god when rope flies in to Gri Gri and get locked by a some miracle knot

I concur, except the "The chances of them locking a Gri Gri is 99.9%"

Hey Mike,

Sorry you were down there for this whole thing, but then again, I am glad you were. I am sure that you and the others that were down there played a vital role in helping this guy out, and for that we thank you.

My brief $.02:

I have taken that ride many a-times when I was starting to lead 5.10's. Safe ride. No need for extra bolts.

I learned to belay w/an ATC, then a gri-gri. I was telling my partner last night how glad I was this was the order I learned to belay. If someone falls when I am belaying, the instinct is for me to lock down w/the brakehand, NOT to let go, NOT to clamp down on the gri gri, but to hold on to the rope the same way whether its w/a gri gri or ATC - LOCK down! Don't let go! Brake hand!!!

If I had learned w/a gri gri first, I don't know of my reflexes would be the same....

And to ditto what others said - I have heard of more stories of someone decking (Red, Rifle, Maple, Obed, New, whatever) while on belay w/a gri gri than ATC. But my experience is limited to a couple of years and to mainly sport crags.

Thanks again Mike. And to the others that helped. I will probably be down there this weekend! Yahoo!

Consider the case when a climber is soloing on a Gri-Gri. Essentially, there is NO belayer whatsoever; You're just trusting the device to do its job. Granted this is not official use of a Gri-Gri, people do it all the time (and safely.) How is much different from handing a newer belayer a Gri-Gri, giving them a short lesson and then going for it?

If you are using a n00b to do your belay PLEASE
GIVE THEM A GRI GRI AND NOT an ATC


The chances of them locking a Gri Gri is 1%

The chances of them locking the rope with ATC is 0

Zero% vs. 1%

Which one sound better?

Ps
That 1% is by act of god when rope flies in to Gri Gri and get locked by a some miracle knot

That being said, I won't lead with an inexperienced belayer.

<high five> Word.

I don't think we can safely make that assumption. I've seen and heard of substantially more accidents involving belayer-Gri-gri error than belayer-ATC error, so I'm left with the conclusion that Gri-gris are more difficult to operate safely. Add to this that I know how to use both and still think that an ATC is wildly simpler to use and I have to disagree with you on that point. All things being equal, if, by the end of the day, I'll be leading with an inexperienced belayer and I have teach him/her either the Gri-gri or the ATC, I think I'll still chose the ATC.

The thing is, Jay and I have climbed together for about a year now...but the first time we climbed together, I had no idea of his belay history. I just had to take it for granted that he was a competant belayer.

And granted, I had a really good indication that he was based on past histories, but imagine you show up at the crag solo, gravitate to a group and are climbing with them.

We ALL do this. Can anyone here say that they've never climbed with someone when they did not know their competence as a belayer?

Wouldn't you rather they belay you with a Gri Gri than an ATC?

Just a thought...

-Dan

When I'm with someone knew, I tend to just not fall for the first couple...or say "FALLING" if i'm going to.

I'd read it, provided it was all illustrated with microsoft art.

When I'm with someone knew, I tend to just not fall for the first couple...or say "FALLING" if i'm going to.

Chuck Norris was attacked by a swarm of bees

We ALL do this. Can anyone here say that they've never climbed with someone when they did not know their competence as a belayer?

Wouldn't you rather they belay you with a Gri Gri than an ATC?

Just a thought...

-Dan

It's interesting how everyone has their own equipment bias. Dan, to answer your question honestly, I feel safer with a "just met" belayer who has an ATC rather than a Gri Gri. Just my personal preference, perhaps because it is the device I prefer.

Shouldn't people expect to have their belay experience questioned when they belay for a new person?

How would you feel if I asked about your belay experience at a crag? I really wonder if others feel the same. Are others offended?

It's interesting how everyone has their own equipment bias. Dan, to answer your question honestly, I feel safer with a "just met" belayer who has an ATC rather than a Gri Gri. Just my personal preference, perhaps because it is the device I prefer.

My main bias is if they seem new to the sport. On occasion I have asked a person I've just met specifically what their belay experience is. It probably sounds rude to some, but I feel if someone asked me the question it would be legitimate, and I would never be offended. I know people have to build up the psychological trust to climb well, and so I don't take it personally. But I have also skipped asking people about their belay experience plenty of times. (so what do I know)

Shouldn't people expect to have their belay experience questioned when they belay for a new person? Is there a reason that this is not part of the "Pre-Climb" safety check-list?

How would you feel if I asked about your belay experience at a crag? I really wonder if others feel the same. Are others offended?

Jay, explain to me how this accident at Kaymoor could still have occurred with a grigri in the equation. We only have to assume two things.
1. the belayer's brakehand was not sufficiently holding the brakeline and,
2. the rope was moving very quickly through the device. (it was, as evidenced by the injuries to the climber)
The device would have locked, there is no maybe about it.

Jay, explain to me how this accident at Kaymoor could still have occurred with a grigri in the equation. We only have to assume two things.
1. the belayer's brakehand was not sufficiently holding the brakeline and,
2. the rope was moving very quickly through the device. (it was, as evidenced by the injuries to the climber)
The device would have locked, there is no maybe about it.

Gri-gris have several potential failure modes. If the belayer applies pressure to the load strand, the cam won't lock. If it's threaded backwards, the cam won't lock. If the belayer is pinching the cam for slack as the climber falls, the cam won't lock. If the cord is too thin, the cam might not lock. If there's dirt/grit under the cam, it might not lock. If the belayer pulls the lever to lower without holding the brake, the rope will run free. Take your pick!

A quick search of RC.com's own forums reveals about an equal number of drops with tube-style devices and Gri-gris. This tells me -- beyond a shadow of a doubt -- that the device is irrelevant. What matters is the belayer's competency... or lack thereof.

To convince me otherwise, you'll have to show me a substantially greater number of ATC drops than Gri-gri drops. I don't believe you can do that.

And how did you somehow extract the idea from what I wrote, that we DONT show our customers how to use a GRIGRI? Obviously we do. We wouldnt be one the most renowned rock/ice stores on the east coast if we didnt. I guess I made the mistake of assuming that it goes without saying.

Belay devices have not changed that much in 60yrs? WTF!!!! Your lucky my dad can't figure out how to use the internet or you would be getting flamed right now! I showed my dad a Cinch and he just shook his head and pulled an old beat up figure 8 out of his gear closet and made me feel like a loser for spending 70$.

What do these newfangled belay devices do for climbers? Nothing any old-timers with a figure 8 or sticht plate couldn't do 60yrs ago.

To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8.

What do these newfangled belay devices do for climbers? Nothing any old-timers with a figure 8 or sticht plate couldn't do 60yrs ago.

But start with hips and hands!

It's interesting how everyone has their own equipment bias. Dan, to answer your question honestly, I feel safer with a "just met" belayer who has an ATC rather than a Gri Gri. Just my personal preference, perhaps because it is the device I prefer.

My main bias is if they seem new to the sport. On occasion I have asked a person I've just met specifically what their belay experience is. It probably sounds rude to some, but I feel if someone asked me the question it would be legitimate, and I would never be offended. I know people have to build up the psychological trust to climb well, and so I don't take it personally. But I have also skipped asking people about their belay experience plenty of times. (so what do I know)

Shouldn't people expect to have their belay experience questioned when they belay for a new person? Is there a reason that this is not part of the "Pre-Climb" safety check-list?

How would you feel if I asked about your belay experience at a crag? I really wonder if others feel the same. Are others offended?

You're right that you need to go back to the old hip belay if you want to get in at the ground floor (if you allow that the body is a device). It's good to have in the bag of tricks, but nothing I want to use with regularity!

Before that...clove hitch?

well, thanks markc for your comments. After all of this, you bet I will stay away from making broad sweeping statements for the sake of streamlining an argument. Instead, I'll prepare myself with lots of juicy facts from the internet. P.s - thanks to those of you who did the homework for me, and who made otherwise valuable contributions to this thread :)

As to where I work, well. Im sure you can understand how I wouldnt want to disclose that info. The risk of having nutjobs from internet forums coming in to "show me a thing or two" about climbing, is alot more likely than I previously imagined :P

To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8. Compare that to the ATC and the Pyramid. Now check out the Jaws, ATC-XP, etc. Then look at the Reverso and ATC-Guide. That's not examining the Gri Gri or the Cinch. You'd be hard-pressed to find one area of climbing where R&D has stagnated. Look at skinny slings and ropes, new cam developments, and ultra-light biners.

Sounds like a challenge....

Tape

underwear (weaker because I know there are wicking underoos now, but generally only alpine climbers use them)

Cracklover: As to where I work, well. Im sure you can understand how I wouldnt want to disclose that info. The risk of having nutjobs from internet forums coming in to "show me a thing or two" about climbing, is alot more likely than I previously imagined :P

All right Jay, it's on. you and me, greenpiece. You belay, I take the whip ten times onto a grigri with five feet of slack between it and your brakehand. I aint scared. If at any time it fails and your brakehand becomes a factor in catching my skinny carcass....I'll eat my hat.

....I personally dont know even one single advanced climber, trad or sport, that uses a Gri Gri for their main belaying device. And I work and live in one of the best climbing areas on the east coast. I see alot of old climbers and new climbers every day. Maybe its just that way where I live, and not so in other places. Ill never really know.

I don't know what your definition of "advanced climber" is but I'll tell you that in sport-climbing in North America, 90% + climbers who climb atleast 5.12 and over use GGs...that percentage goes up as the grades get harder. period.