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dbrayack
Jun 26, 2007, 7:34 PM
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j_ung wrote: medicus wrote: That being said, I won't lead with an inexperienced belayer. <high five> Word. 
The thing is, Jay and I have climbed together for about a year now...but the first time we climbed together, I had no idea of his belay history. I just had to take it for granted that he was a competant belayer.
And granted, I had a really good indication that he was based on past histories, but imagine you show up at the crag solo, gravitate to a group and are climbing with them.
We ALL do this. Can anyone here say that they've never climbed with someone when they did not know their competence as a belayer?
Wouldn't you rather they belay you with a Gri Gri than an ATC?
Just a thought...
-Dan
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papounet
Jun 26, 2007, 7:37 PM
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j_ung wrote: curator wrote: Of course the belayer was at fault not the device but.....in this case in particular if she had a grigri this wouldn't have happened. That is a fact. If the belayer had a grigri instead of an atc we wouldn't have a seriously injured climber in the hospital. No one can argue that. She didn't catch the fall, the grigri would have done it for her. I don't think we can safely make that assumption. I've seen and heard of substantially more accidents involving belayer-Gri-gri error than belayer-ATC error, so I'm left with the conclusion that Gri-gris are more difficult to operate safely. Add to this that I know how to use both and still think that an ATC is wildly simpler to use and I have to disagree with you on that point. All things being equal, if, by the end of the day, I'll be leading with an inexperienced belayer and I have teach him/her either the Gri-gri or the ATC, I think I'll still chose the ATC.
it is not only how many accident are reported with one device which is important, to really understand the risk; we would have to know how many novices use grigri vs. how many use tube-like devices.
If they were 2x as much accidents reported with grigri but 4x times as many operated by novice, then teh risk would be half.....
There are now more and more devices which do not have the "weakness" of the grigri ( under stress one may grip the handle and let the rope go).
Even the old Gigi does autoblock but it is a pain to use.
Although for an experienced belayer, the TRE deserve some very serious considerations for its multi-purposes and autoblocking features, the safest to date belay (not absolutely safest, just the safest to date) device is the EDDY (too bad it cost 25% more than the grigiri and 5x more than a tube device).
No, I am not getting any % from Edelrid. I wish I would ;-)
the eddy is lightly heavier than the grigri, it is also operated by one lever: pull a little to give slack WITH the colombus egg safety: pull too much , the rope is locked.
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medicus
Jun 26, 2007, 7:48 PM
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dbrayack wrote: j_ung wrote: medicus wrote: That being said, I won't lead with an inexperienced belayer. <high five> Word. The thing is, Jay and I have climbed together for about a year now...but the first time we climbed together, I had no idea of his belay history. I just had to take it for granted that he was a competant belayer. And granted, I had a really good indication that he was based on past histories, but imagine you show up at the crag solo, gravitate to a group and are climbing with them. We ALL do this. Can anyone here say that they've never climbed with someone when they did not know their competence as a belayer? Wouldn't you rather they belay you with a Gri Gri than an ATC? Just a thought... -Dan
The few times I have merged with a group, I observed a bit before I climbed and was able to assess which person I would pick to belay for me. I ended up having this one girl belay for me, and later on through discussion found out she had been climbing for 9 years, 4 of which she started trad leading.
Thinking back to all the people who I have allowed to belay for me, the only ones who have lead belayed me were experienced and competent. I have taught some people to belay at the gym, and I never climb higher than I'm comfortable taking a ground fall until I am able to assess that they are starting to catch on. Even then, I usually have a more experienced belayer standing there watching them, and they stick to top rope belaying...
I'm too freaked out at heights to not have a lot of confidence in my belayer.
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dbrayack
Jun 26, 2007, 7:54 PM
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When I'm with someone knew, I tend to just not fall for the first couple...or say "FALLING" if i'm going to.
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medicus
Jun 26, 2007, 7:59 PM
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dbrayack wrote: When I'm with someone knew, I tend to just not fall for the first couple...or say "FALLING" if i'm going to.
If I am in a situation where I had to be belayed (assuming not just teaching in the gym or whatever) by someone inexperienced... I would treat it as free soloing... so I would not climb a hard route at all, and if for some chance I were to start to fall, I would think I'd yell too. I guess it's all about just minimizing risks... but at the same time, I have sat out numerous climbs because I did not feel comfortable with the belayers nearby... until the people I felt comfortable with made it back to the group I just had fun observing.
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duckbuster_13
Jun 26, 2007, 8:10 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: I'd read it, provided it was all illustrated with microsoft art.
ZING!
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pylonhead
Jun 26, 2007, 8:22 PM
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dbrayack wrote: When I'm with someone knew, I tend to just not fall for the first couple...or say "FALLING" if i'm going to.
I usually yell "falling" even with my experienced partners. I figure I might as well give that heads up to the person who is about to save my life.
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curator
Jun 27, 2007, 1:00 AM
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Just got back from work. I figured there would be a couple more pages on this topic and there are. I also had plenty of time to think about this in further detail. I read through all the previous posts. The general theme seems to be "the device is insignificant, it's the person holding it that matters." i agree. All I'm trying to say at this point is that the grigri adds an extra margin of safety. Let me tell ya a little story:
I was lowering Elissa off of 'tales of the sperm' at the obed. It's steep and traversing so as she gets closer to the ground it becomes increasingly difficult to clean the draws. Instead of cleaning the final draw and taking a huge swing into the forest i suggest that she stay clipped to my end of the rope, I'll build a ground anchor clip in and she'll slide down the rope toward me eliminating the giant swing. Anyone that's climbed with me knows that I have a ridiculous petzl freino biner for my grigri. (it's the one with that weird wire gate on the spine) So I clip my ground anchor to the wire gate on the back even knowing that it's not full strength I assume that it will hold for this minor task. Elissa unclips the first draw, comes taught on my rope, the wiregate pops open, and I'm dragged at high speed into a giant boulder. It hurt and I'm pretty sure my brakehand came off.
Ok. first off....I fucked up. I made a minor mistake that could have had huge consequences. I have over ten years experience using atc's. I've climbed thousands of pitches. I'm a rock climbing instructor. And yet I still managed to fuck up and make a mistake that could have killed my partner. IF I was using an atc. Which I wasn't, and now Elissa is enjoying a PBR instead of physical therapy. If Chuck Norris was belaying me with an atc I'd be pretty comfortable cause he's bad ass. But if a rock fell and hit Chuck Norris, or Chuck Norris was attacked by a swarm of bees, right at the moment I took a lead fall.... Chuck Norris would be carrying me out (not that that would be hard for him). Last point is: We can't look at climbing accident statistics to get an idea of which is more dangerous, atc's or grigris. Just like someone mentioned earlier we don't know statistically how many people use either one. And we don't know how many accidents were averted by grigris (like mine). Elissa is obviously not a statistic because the only injury was my bruised ass, thanks to the grig. I say....Use one, Chuck Norris would.
And one more thing: just to stir the pot a bit more...
Jay, explain to me how this accident at Kaymoor could still have occurred with a grigri in the equation. We only have to assume two things.
1. the belayer's brakehand was not sufficiently holding the brakeline and,
2. the rope was moving very quickly through the device. (it was, as evidenced by the injuries to the climber)
The device would have locked, there is no maybe about it.
(This post was edited by curator on Jun 27, 2007, 2:11 AM)
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wolfski
Jun 27, 2007, 4:49 AM
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In reply to: Chuck Norris was attacked by a swarm of bees
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majid_sabet
Jun 27, 2007, 5:09 AM
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I been posting accident report for years and never seen a post like this
Stories are coming out of dark room like never heard before
Chuck Nories
Climbing instructor
Flying in to wall with belay device.
I just have to wait for the next guy with his story.
keep it coming, just keep it coming , my eyes and ears are all yours.
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bent_gate
Jun 27, 2007, 5:28 AM
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dbrayack wrote: We ALL do this. Can anyone here say that they've never climbed with someone when they did not know their competence as a belayer? Wouldn't you rather they belay you with a Gri Gri than an ATC? Just a thought... -Dan
It's interesting how everyone has their own equipment bias. Dan, to answer your question honestly, I feel safer with a "just met" belayer who has an ATC rather than a Gri Gri. Just my personal preference, perhaps because it is the device I prefer.
My main bias is if they seem new to the sport. On occasion I have asked a person I've just met specifically what their belay experience is. It probably sounds rude to some, but I feel if someone asked me the question it would be legitimate, and I would never be offended. I know people have to build up the psychological trust to climb well, and so I don't take it personally. But I have also skipped asking people about their belay experience plenty of times. (so what do I know)
Shouldn't people expect to have their belay experience questioned when they belay for a new person? Is there a reason that this is not part of the "Pre-Climb" safety check-list?
How would you feel if I asked about your belay experience at a crag? I really wonder if others feel the same. Are others offended?
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majid_sabet
Jun 27, 2007, 5:41 AM
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If you know how to climb trad crack, I will not ask you a question.
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notapplicable
Jun 27, 2007, 11:17 AM
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bent_gate wrote: It's interesting how everyone has their own equipment bias. Dan, to answer your question honestly, I feel safer with a "just met" belayer who has an ATC rather than a Gri Gri. Just my personal preference, perhaps because it is the device I prefer.
I'm a bit conflicted when it comes to this issue. On one hand I suspect that the safest device for someone to use is the one they are the most comfortable with because it make sense to me that experience and knowledge of a device should = proficiency and proficiency should (to some degree) = safety. I personaly have only used a grigri a handful of times, all in a gym setting and I can tell you right now that I would not be nearly as comfortable belaying with and autolocker as a tube style. I believe that to some degree I would be more prone to mistakes with an autolocker than I would an ATC which I have used for years.
On the other hand I am more comfortable with being belayed with a tube style because of my familiarity with it and the subconscious trust I have it the simplicity and intuitive nature of the devices use.
The same thing applies to belay techniques. Being belayed with the palms up pinch and slide makes me very uncomfortable but when I try to look at it objectively I have assume that a persons proficiency with the method makes them safer than if I forced them to use my method. I know that I would be very awkward trying to belay using an alternative method from my own and I have to assume the same is true for other people.
So I guess what it comes down to is trust in the individual and their ability to use what ever methods and devices are most comfortable for them in a safe manner. Granted the climber needs to feel comfortable to push themselves but if you handed me a grigri and said "I would feel safer if you used this" I'm pretty sure you would in fact not be safer. Ultimantely its the person not the device that makes the belay safe or deadly.
bent_gate wrote: Shouldn't people expect to have their belay experience questioned when they belay for a new person?
Yes.
bent_gate wrote: How would you feel if I asked about your belay experience at a crag? I really wonder if others feel the same. Are others offended?
I wouldnt be at a offended, actualy it would make me feel a little better about partnering up with them if I knew they were giving conscious thought to our ability to climb safely together.
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dbrayack
Jun 27, 2007, 11:52 AM
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bent_gate wrote: dbrayack wrote: We ALL do this. Can anyone here say that they've never climbed with someone when they did not know their competence as a belayer? Wouldn't you rather they belay you with a Gri Gri than an ATC? Just a thought... -Dan It's interesting how everyone has their own equipment bias. Dan, to answer your question honestly, I feel safer with a "just met" belayer who has an ATC rather than a Gri Gri. Just my personal preference, perhaps because it is the device I prefer. My main bias is if they seem new to the sport. On occasion I have asked a person I've just met specifically what their belay experience is. It probably sounds rude to some, but I feel if someone asked me the question it would be legitimate, and I would never be offended. I know people have to build up the psychological trust to climb well, and so I don't take it personally. But I have also skipped asking people about their belay experience plenty of times. (so what do I know) Shouldn't people expect to have their belay experience questioned when they belay for a new person? Is there a reason that this is not part of the "Pre-Climb" safety check-list? How would you feel if I asked about your belay experience at a crag? I really wonder if others feel the same. Are others offended?
Yes, but there-in lies the problem.
What if they lie to you. Whether you ask them their experience or not, if they are inexperienced, they probably won't tell you because they don't want to be demeaned.
They may think that they're qualified enough, when reality they're not.
What if they're really just nervous about being put on the spot or maybe feel like they're not part of the group if they reveal their in-ability...
In my experience a good belayer is one who knows how to give me a good, easy "working a route" belay...you know, when you reef back up to a bolt after you fall, you don't get let down any. When you clip a sketchy bolt, they're ready to catch you if you blow it. If you're in a dangerous position, they know how to do their best...If its a clean fall, they let you fall a long way instead of taking tight. (Falling does not necessarily mean "take")
I have friends who prefer the Gri Gri and I have friends who prefer the ATC...if I'm working a route, I'd rather have a person belay me on a GRI GRI so they don't lower me 3 inches every time I take etc...
My brains not fuctioning yet...pardon the in-coherence.
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markc
Jun 27, 2007, 1:04 PM
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curator wrote: Jay, explain to me how this accident at Kaymoor could still have occurred with a grigri in the equation. We only have to assume two things. 1. the belayer's brakehand was not sufficiently holding the brakeline and, 2. the rope was moving very quickly through the device. (it was, as evidenced by the injuries to the climber) The device would have locked, there is no maybe about it.
See my earlier post in the thread. As I said, the mode of failure would be different, but there are a couple plausible scenarios.
(This post was edited by markc on Jun 27, 2007, 1:04 PM)
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j_ung
Jun 27, 2007, 1:14 PM
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curator wrote: Jay, explain to me how this accident at Kaymoor could still have occurred with a grigri in the equation. We only have to assume two things. 1. the belayer's brakehand was not sufficiently holding the brakeline and, 2. the rope was moving very quickly through the device. (it was, as evidenced by the injuries to the climber) The device would have locked, there is no maybe about it.
No maybe?
Gri-gris have several potential failure modes. If the belayer applies pressure to the load strand, the cam won't lock. If it's threaded backwards, the cam won't lock. If the belayer is pinching the cam for slack as the climber falls, the cam won't lock. If the cord is too thin, the cam might not lock. If there's dirt/grit under the cam, it might not lock. If the belayer pulls the lever to lower without holding the brake, the rope will run free. Take your pick!
That similar accidents have occurred at all with Gri-gris completely disproves your assertion that there's no maybe about it.
I'm not saying there definitely would have been accident if she had been using a Gri-gri. I'm saying she's obviously not yet a competent belayer and, had she been using a Gri-gri, there still would have been an array of mistakes waiting to occur. Hence, we can't say for certain that she would have prevented this deck with a Gri-gri. IMO, his poor girl with less than minimal experience was a ticking time bomb regardless of the device.
The accident was caused by an error of judgment. Period. The climber shouldn't have left the ground with an inexperienced belayer. The belayer shouldn't have agreed to do so. Other, similar accidents, have occurred with Gri-gris. A quick search of RC.com's own forums reveals about an equal number of drops with tube-style devices and Gri-gris. This tells me -- beyond a shadow of a doubt -- that the device is irrelevant. What matters is the belayer's competency... or lack thereof.
To convince me otherwise, you'll have to show me a substantially greater number of ATC drops than Gri-gri drops. I don't believe you can do that.
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markc
Jun 27, 2007, 2:18 PM
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j_ung wrote: Gri-gris have several potential failure modes. If the belayer applies pressure to the load strand, the cam won't lock. If it's threaded backwards, the cam won't lock. If the belayer is pinching the cam for slack as the climber falls, the cam won't lock. If the cord is too thin, the cam might not lock. If there's dirt/grit under the cam, it might not lock. If the belayer pulls the lever to lower without holding the brake, the rope will run free. Take your pick!
To add a couple more scenarios:
If the route is a slab, a fall might not generate sufficient force to engage the cam.
Other features can block the free movement of the cam. This could happen if the belayer is pulled into the rock or up to the first bolt. Fairly rare, but possible.
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whoa
Jun 27, 2007, 2:39 PM
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j_ung wrote: A quick search of RC.com's own forums reveals about an equal number of drops with tube-style devices and Gri-gris. This tells me -- beyond a shadow of a doubt -- that the device is irrelevant. What matters is the belayer's competency... or lack thereof. To convince me otherwise, you'll have to show me a substantially greater number of ATC drops than Gri-gri drops. I don't believe you can do that.
This reasoning would make sense if the total number of noob ATC and GriGri users were about the same. But I'd guess there are lots more ATC users, especially among beginners. So if there really are about equally many drops with both, that means not that the device is irrelvant but that the ATC is safer.
But your qucik forum search obviously isn't an ideal basis for estimates about total numbers of drops. I wonder if there are better stats to be had? Maybe from gyms that insist on one sort of device?
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climbinwv
Jun 27, 2007, 3:18 PM
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I think woah is right. The average nOOb goes into a climbing store and buys a harness, rope, shoes, couple of biners, webbing, and probably an atc b/c they figure they are saving 50$ and it looks easier to use. Additionally, the person at the store probably reccomends an atc based on the fact that a person buying all this stuff at once is obviously either a nOOb or someone who got all their gear jacked. Based on my experience I usually don't see nOObs with bright shiny new grigri's. My point is that there are probably more nOObs with atc's in their soft supple hands. So it would stand to reason that there would be more atc accidents(nOObs=accidents) then with grigri's(which usually is something bought once a person has gotten more into the sport). My personal feeling is that a climber should learn how to safely use every belay device b/c you never know when you may need to use a device other than the one(s) you carry in your pack.
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johanna2430
Jun 27, 2007, 4:47 PM
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Seeing that I myself work at a climbing shop, I will agree that myself, and everyone else that works here would sell a newbie who walks into our shop who is looking to get a brand new set up, an ATC over any other device. And, I never really though about it until I started reading this thread, but, its not like something our whole staff stood around one day discussing what is better, or like our bosses made this rule that we all have to sell all beginners that walk into the shop an ATC. I think there are reasons for this. Personally, mine are the same as others mentioned in this thread. But mostly, its because it is what I learned on, and it has become intuitive. I have tried using a Gri Gri before, (just b/c it was required in a gym), and I felt totally insecure, and it made me feel like I never belayed before in my life. I would absolutely never use one outdoors. However, I can see the original guy's point that, had I say learned on a GriGri instead of a ATC, it could be just as intuitive for that person, and just as counter intuitive for them to say use an ATC one day. It is really neither here nor there. Its personal preference, and you should use what you know.
The point I wanted to contribute to your particular comments, was to disagree with the assumption that it is more likely that a beginner will start out with an ATC, and then as they gain more experience, will perhaps aquire a GriGri. I totally disagree, as I personally understand the Gri Gri to be more of a beginners belay device to begin with, which is why it is used by so many climbing gyms around the country, for its supposed "fail safe" self-locking mechanism for beginners who do not otherwise know how to properly belay with the more standard ATC device. Which really, the "self-locking mechanism" just sounds good on paper for insurance companies for the gyms, as any experienced climber knows that they are just as prone to accidents as anything else. It boils down to the person using it.
Not to mention the fact that, from the day climbing ever became a sport, back in the early part of the century, but for this argument I'll say the 1950's and on, the basic idea of belay devices had not changed too dramatically, in the case of the ATC (Im a firm believer in the "If its not broke, dont try to fix it" mentality). That is until, gym climbing became so popular 15 yrs. ago or so. I am not even 30, and I personally witnessed gym climbing blow up. I remember specifically when the local climbing store started carrying these new things called GriGri's, and when they first started selling them, I was told it was made for sport climbing primarily. I think the guy even even told me it was a piece of junk ! (although I will agree that the technology for GG's is probably much better even compared to then).
But, in general, other than for maybe the occasional self-belaying uses for soloing, or a very small margin of particular use, I personally dont know even one single advanced climber, trad or sport, that uses a Gri Gri for their main belaying device. And I work and live in one of the best climbing areas on the east coast. I see alot of old climbers and new climbers every day. Maybe its just that way where I live, and not so in other places. Ill never really know.
Bottom line: I think what makes a beginner come in and ask us about buying a Gri Gri vs. a ATC, (which again is rare actually), has more to do with them having a slightly more experienced, yet still begginner friend who tells them to buy one (and I quote," My friend, who is a really good climber at our local gym in the city, told me this is what I needed to buy), OR, its b/c they see this seemingly easy, more technical looking, sexy piece of shiny equipment hanging on the pegboard, and they have daddy's money to burn through, and want to look cool at the gym, and choose to buy it, assuming that it is better without ever using it. Seriously. These are the reasons. People have even admitted to them. I have even straight up had a guy come in and say they wanted to buy a gri gri b/c he saw a cool ad in a magazine for one.
And so. Honestly, I personally dont have anything against a GriGri. I just think people should use what they know the best. I personally would have no problem jumping on a rope with a belayer using one, as long as they know it like a part of their own body. I just mainly wanted to share my personal experience with the types of people that I see buying them from a retail standpoint.
Hope this helps :)
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climbinwv
Jun 27, 2007, 5:28 PM
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Belay devices have not changed that much in 60yrs? WTF!!!! Your lucky my dad can't figure out how to use the internet or you would be getting flamed right now! I showed my dad a Cinch and he just shook his head and pulled an old beat up figure 8 out of his gear closet and made me feel like a loser for spending 70$. What do these newfangled belay devices do for climbers? Nothing any old-timers with a figure 8 or sticht plate couldn't do 60yrs ago. Shouldn't you be able to use/demonstrate proper belay with all devices you sell in your store? If not maybe you should just stay in the shoe/crashpad section. This thread has degenerated from a horrible story of a climbing accident to johanna's history of climbing/retail sales background. Let's face it, people are always gonna argue about which belay device is best. I'm selling all my devices on e-bay and going back to the Old School Hip/Body Belay....anyone wanna go climbing?
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johanna2430
Jun 27, 2007, 6:12 PM
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climbinwv wrote: In reply to: Belay devices have not changed that much in 60yrs? WTF!!!! Well actually, I was referring to a figure 8 device in addition to an ATC, as they both have 2 SEPERATE HOLES where the rope gets fed thru. SAME BASIC IDEA. I was saying that the GRIGRI is much different from a basic ATC and/or Figure 8. Excuse me for not being more articulate. In reply to: Shouldn't you be able to use/demonstrate proper belay with all devices you sell in your store? And how did you somehow extract the idea from what I wrote, that we DONT show our customers how to use a GRIGRI? Obviously we do. We wouldnt be one the most renowned rock/ice stores on the east coast if we didnt. I guess I made the mistake of assuming that it goes without saying. In reply to: If not maybe you should just stay in the shoe/crashpad section. This thread has degenerated from a horrible story of a climbing accident to johanna's history of climbing/retail sales background. Sounds to me like you have way too much time on your hands, and on the contrary, your unecessary, not so constructive comments are more about your own need to GRANDSTAND on this otherwise constructive forum, than it is about me sharing my personal experience from a retail perspective on the particular subject of gri gris. Which, needless to say, so far has been alot more valuable than yours.
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markc
Jun 27, 2007, 6:16 PM
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climbinwv wrote: Belay devices have not changed that much in 60yrs? WTF!!!! Your lucky my dad can't figure out how to use the internet or you would be getting flamed right now! I showed my dad a Cinch and he just shook his head and pulled an old beat up figure 8 out of his gear closet and made me feel like a loser for spending 70$.
To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8. Compare that to the ATC and the Pyramid. Now check out the Jaws, ATC-XP, etc. Then look at the Reverso and ATC-Guide. That's not examining the Gri Gri or the Cinch. You'd be hard-pressed to find one area of climbing where R&D has stagnated. Look at skinny slings and ropes, new cam developments, and ultra-light biners.
climbinwv wrote: What do these newfangled belay devices do for climbers? Nothing any old-timers with a figure 8 or sticht plate couldn't do 60yrs ago.
Well, some do let you belay directly off the anchor and go hands-free if you wish. Some let you belay two seconds at once, which a figure 8 doesn't lend itself to. I wouldn't be in a rush to go back to the good old days of hemp and hip belays, despite your kind offer.
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