Reg
The pin-hook engagement design on the oval biner apparently is the best and make it superior to all the other biner out there and this due to fact that during tensioning phase, the load ( B) is evenly divided along the both side ( A) of the biner .

However, the oval biner are weaker and have lower KN than r D shape biner cause the strongest part of the biner is along the axis line (C) but when oval biners are loaded , the forces are applied away from the axis line and more in center.

When D shape biners are loaded, majority of forces are applied in one side causing the lower part of the biner (D) to bend in an angle. Since the gate side of the biner is not fixed and has a gap (between pin and hook), the hook side (F) also move to an angle of its own causing the pin or the hook to not engage or even if they engage, they would pop out.


This problem becomes even worse when the applied tension on a “D” shape biner moves away from the axis line and stay in the middle on the biner or closer to the gate side.


[[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1660/omisoovalvt6.jpg[/IMG]

T 1,000,000

unfortunately, this isn't a troll, as evident by the OP's effort to raise alarm, by his insistence on pertinent technical info only, and by his attempt to desperately make sense of this major problem with biners that he has perceived, even after the correct answer has repeatedly been given by others which he just wasn't able to comprehend.

Many times the notch in the biner gate has caught what otherwise would have been a lost nut.

actually, basilisk, no. when the gig is up, one should know to knock it off, by strict trolling protocol

Or a loose nut, in this case.

Jay

unfortunately, this isn't a troll, as evident by the OP's effort to raise alarm, by his insistence on pertinent technical info only, and by his attempt to desperately make sense of this major problem with biners that he has perceived, even after the correct answer has repeatedly been given by others which he just wasn't able to comprehend. hell of a train wreck. debatably, under the strict guidelines of present day state-of-the-art troll making, you can call that a troll that trolled the OP himself, but that would be sad and pathetic in so many ways

Did your mother have any children that lived?

Come on man, sh*t. Do not tell me you want to date my brothers now. Those guys are not as nice as I am and they can be mean to you.

They can hurt you once you turn the light off.

Guys
I am not trolling but If I want to troll, I could really take you guys for a long ride in RC and bring you back to LAB three months later with 400 more post as confuses as you could get but I am pretty dead serious about this topic and that is why I mentioned in the LAB by asking three simple questions. I am also aware of how binders work and perform by far much more then most of you end users. I also have seen how biners fail in different conditions.

Now, does an airbag save lives?
Yes

Does it also kill people?

How many of you are willing to say no?

Does a pin and the hook become engage during loading phase? Yes

Does it do it job the way it should be? From what I can see no it does not. IMO, if a perfectly modified hook could deliver 100%, the current design is delivering less than 40% or even less.

Can a good pin-hook engagement increases the biner overall strength? I think we all agree on that however; the pin- hook engagement should perform better. If it is possible to modify the design so they could slightly engage longer or tighter, may be this could save a biner from complete failure.

I am going to modify few biners and they are going to be test and trust me, I will post the result back on the LAB as I have done in the past so please do not turn this in to a pissing match game and let's focus on the topic for our own good and benefits.

Does a pin and the hook become engage during loading phase? Yes

The pin does not interlock with the hook under tension period.

the current design is delivering less than 40% or even less

The way I see it, the pin and the little hook do nothing. Basically, they are both worthless

...

Now, there are three options;

1- Except the fact that pins and hook on some biners may not engage (certain biners)
2- Except the fact that current design is ok and mfgs can just leave it the way it is
3- Do a major study on the current design, perform pull test on several biners and go from there.

...

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1660/omisoovalvt6.jpg
There is a false assumption in the diagram above. "the hook side (F) also move to an angle of its own" This F arrow should be pointing the opposite way.
Look at the videos and the FEA model in the links offered. The "sides" of the biner actually move closer as the biner is elongated by the load.
The pin/notch interaction is actually somewhat improved up until the point of failure elsewhere.

[image]http://www.haverodwilltravel.com/images/Trolling%202.jpg[/image]

or

[image]http://coreygilmore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg[/image]

?

java lava bava

You have not proved anything yet, just the same old talk, converting a reasonable questions in to Jihat with Sorbat . Based on what I have seen and by close examining several brand/model/make biners, I ( me personally and not you guys) concluded that pin on several made biners man not engage with a hook due to either misalignment during pull test or just due to their poor design.

...

this new statement of yours:


completely contradicts your very emphatic original claim:


and this other one:


is different from your original claim that the current pin-hood design is worthless:


you need to state clearly that you're changing your claims if you're now changing your claims. and acknowledge that, for example, if you now say "the pin-hood DOES engage during loading phase," then that means you were wrong before when you originally had said "the pin DOES NOT interlock with the hook under tension period." otherwise, you would end up looking like a lying weasel who's hoping these fifth-grade evasive tactics of yours would fly. but then again, that wouldn't exactly be surprising considering your ignorance, incompetence, shifty disposition, and propensity to irritability whenever you're caught saying stupid crap

Based on what I have seen and by close examining several brand/model/make biners, I ( me personally and not you guys) concluded that--

1- Except the fact that pins and hook on some biners may not engage (certain biners)
...
3- Do a major study on the current design, perform pull test on several biners and go from there.

but I am (me and not the entire world) choosing #1 and # 3 and I will not going to except any other answer till this sucker goes under the test.

Does it do it job the way it should be? From what I can see no it does not. IMO, if a perfectly modified hook could deliver 100%, the current design is delivering less than 40% or even less.

Can a good pin-hook engagement increases the biner overall strength? I think we all agree on that however; the pin- hook engagement should perform better. If it is possible to modify the design so they could slightly engage longer or tighter, may be this could save a biner from complete failure.

i understand your anguish and frustration, you retarded freak. i really do. it really sucks for you to have to operate on a low mental capacity when you're trying to do great things. this call to alarm to what you'd perceived to be "the biggest Screw-up in the history of climbing gear design" hasn't exactly panned out the way you have foreseen. i understand also how you don't enjoy being proven wrong, how you disliked having your own contradicting words being quoted and thrown right back in your face, how traumatic and irritating that made you feel. but really, given all that, this desperate need of yours to immediately denounce said offending evidence and make believe as if they never happened, this need to pronounce unilaterally and once and for all that nothing has been proven when you have just been proven wrong by your own words, you really need to knock that crap off. otherwise the world will just have to treat you like the raving jackass fool that you are, and perhaps deem that you might find life more comfortable in a psychiatric ward, or a mental institution

i'm sorry you were busted flip-flopping the full 180 on an important initial claim, which clearly indicated that even you now believe you were wrong, even before any of your so-called "future re-design work" has even begun. but despite how that doesn't really bode well for said "future re-design work" and however much you hated that having happened, what you really need to do is to just relax, take some deep breaths, and pause for a moment to enjoy this train wreckvery beautiful continuum of wrongness that you're responsible for and should show more appreciation for, the full blown magnificence of it all

anyway, i'm afraid i'll have to now add denial to the list of your character traits, along with your fanatical need to make blanket pronouncements, so that the full list is now:

ignorance, incompetence, shifty disposition, propensity for irritability and denial and fanatical pronouncements when caught saying stupid crap

by the way, is all of that part of your SAR training, or are they just the extra special somethings that you bring to every one of their rescue operations?

seriously, you can't even keep your own story straight. is that not supposed to be noticed? is that supposed to not make you look like a joke?

it's odd how you so casually tout your SAR affiliations when you feel the need to act authoritative when arguing on the internet, and yet could care less about how your incompetence and poor behavior can in turn reflect very negatively on them, esp with your release of this present stink bomb of a major mental fuck-up

here again are those evidence showing how you contradicted your original claims, in case you're experiencing extreme memory lapse:


see, it's all your own bullshit, contradictions which you're unable to even respond to. how big of a pussy in denial are you?

you're the moron making a preposterous conjectured claim about a "supposed problem" with the current biner pin-hood design, which, upon your failure to provide concrete evidence to support, naturally brought into question your understanding or the lack there of of how a biner works, an understanding which you have yet to show. you're the one who started this mess. the burden of proof is on you. i know exactly what you're so confused about, as others may as well, esp those who had explained to you why you're thinking wrong, why your original claims are questionable, why this endeavor of yours is misguided and laughable

and here are more new indications why your effort is questionable:


that's a conclusion based on your very apparent inadequate understanding of how a biner truly works. therefore, such a problem as perceived by you might not actually exist, and might only be a problem in your own under-informed mind

and:


actually, before you undertake any major re-research effort, you should understand fully the working principles of the gear in question first. that's because, again, a perceived problem based on your limited understanding may well only be a perceived problem in your own mind. understanding first what is at hand, that's what a rational, responsible researcher would do. you have proven very clearly that you do not understand how a biner works, that you do not know the primary function of that pin-hood connection. otherwise, you wouldn't be making dubious statements like:


also, you continue to be unaware of what the MIT Slides #17-21 showed, as Trenchdigger had referenced earlier:

http://web.mit.edu/...gue_Presentation.pdf

and what that implies for the primary role of the pin-hood connection and for the invalidity of your perceived pin-hood problem

based on what's been stated in the discussion, as someone has said, the evidence that disproves your claims is literally "staring you in the face." you are that oblivious. you are that dense. you are that stupid. and you're a so-called SAR "expert" who doesn't even fucking know how a carabiner works

The pin does not interlock with the hook under tension period.

Does a pin and the hook become engage during loading phase? Yes