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paintinhaler
Nov 3, 2002, 11:12 PM
Post #26 of 32
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Registered: Dec 12, 2000
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Very good point, -pbjosh-
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mainline
Nov 4, 2002, 12:10 AM
Post #27 of 32
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Registered: Aug 30, 2002
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I'm the one who started this thread and I have to say that I have learned a lot. All of the techniques that people have listed here are worth knowing. You never know when you might find yourself in a situation where you will need to use one of them. Especially with the constantly changing nature of ice in a mountain environment. What is WI 3 one day could be WI 4 another.
I just finished watching an ice climbing video on Jeff Lowe, and he specifically pointed out the technique of resting on his ice tools with a daisy chain. Many great rock and alpine climbs have involved some sort of aid, and by definition using ice tools is aid climbing. Many of today's best ice and mixed climbers consider using leashes poor form and an unfair advantage. I am not about to run home and take off my leashes. I could care less if other people think I am using poor form if I pull on some gear to make it past a couple of hard rock moves or rest on my tool on an ice pitch. More important to me is that I get to explore the mountains in a safe and fun manner while impacting the natural environment as little as possible.
[ This Message was edited by: mainline on 2002-11-03 16:11 ]
[ This Message was edited by: mainline on 2002-11-03 16:12 ]
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darkside
Nov 5, 2002, 12:25 AM
Post #28 of 32
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Registered: Sep 15, 2001
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I re-iterate
Quote:In ice climbing, the only bad form is falling.
---may not be verbatim. Source unknown.
While there is a risk in weighting a tool, that risk lies in the placement of the tool and the direction of pull. With a good placement and sharp pick, the teeth will bite harder into the ice as this is the way they are designed to work. If there were such a rule as not weighting a tool then there would be a rule against using one as part of a belay anchor would there not? Passing a rope over the tool while placing a screw would also be a bad idea surely. Its all in how the tool is used and there is no hard or fast rule to cover all situations.
I have still seen no explanation for how a leash to the wrist is different to one to a harness? A leash is a leash, be it to a wrist or a harness.
To improve you must climb at your limits and when you are doing so you have to recognise when to back off. If this happens to be mid-pitch then you have to do all you can to avoid falling and if that involves the use of fifi's, leashes, or tethers then so be it.
To hell with style, to hell with the style police, avoid falling and you avoid bad form.
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punk
Nov 5, 2002, 6:10 AM
Post #29 of 32
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Registered: May 28, 2002
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Quote:
I have still seen no explanation for how a leash to the wrist is different to one to a harness? A leash is a leash, be it to a wrist or a harness
There couldn’t be more wrong statement then this
Now, lets look at the body skeleton:
What we looking for is the center of gravity of the human skeleton look at the spot that marked with X (i.e. COG) where if u don’t mind me reminding u... is the back support of the harness…can u see where Im going with this …
U can also try these fun experiments
Now after all of this …did u ever stopped to ask Uhmmm why the climbing harness design the way it is and why don’t we climb with handcuff around our hands just incase we fall…(I will belay u anytime just to see u doing this on 5.11 just to see what happens when u fall…. )
The reason is plain and simple …. IT IS NOT THE HUMAN BODY CENTER OF GRAVITY
There for attaching anything to your harness and resting of it means u take the weight of your limbs and u solely subject it to the harness in order …remember, TO REST!!!...
then and only then u can fully rest and not subject your body to gravity (coming from the point that your intermediate anchor didn’t blow out)
Therefor, resting on anything that attaches to your harness (rope included) is a form of aid b/c you areNOT supporting your body with your limbs against gravity... u just succumb to gravity all together and resting on artifice platform
Bottom line is:
There is NO COMPARING of resting on your leashes to resting on your harness or any thing attached to it
Having to use fifi as a method of climbing ice is a bad form…Sorry to break it to you and again look at my previous posts in regard to the diverse situations and how to NOT ACQUIRING DANGEROUS BAD CLIMBING HABITS
Peace
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darkside
Nov 6, 2002, 2:55 AM
Post #30 of 32
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Registered: Sep 15, 2001
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OK my friend, at the risk of this seeming argumentative I will continue this debate as devil's advocate. Please note my earlier posts in so far as I do not use the practice of fifi's or tethers, only leashes on the tools.
Using your analogy of center of gravity, you are saying that support from a leash/tether is acceptable depending on it's attachment point to the skeletal system. To extend your analogy to a sport route, is it then acceptable to grab a draw with the hands as long as it is not clipped into the harness. Although this would enable the climber to rest it would not be a proper rest as when clipped into the draw.
I submit that this rationale is merely one of semantics and that the support of any kind be it to wrists or waist constitutes what others have referred to as 'aid'. As such it has to be all or nothing with leashes of any kind being acceptable or none at all. If artificial support is to be considered bad form then you have to forego the leashes to the wrist or at the very least extend it beyond support. Almost no one has leashes adjusted in this manner though so the degree of support should not be the guide for good or bad form as your explanation leads me to believe.
I'm afraid I cannot find enough to your debate to sway me from my belief in falling as the true display of bad form. Of course one can always claim greater merit in a climb by climbing without fifi or tether.
Yes you have convinced me there is a difference between form and merit. I stand by my views on form and as for merit, well that is a matter of how we present ourselves to others. At the end of the day we should climb for ourselves and leave the matter of leashes to our own self esteem, not the dictates of others.
Bad form has no merit.
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punk
Nov 6, 2002, 3:11 AM
Post #31 of 32
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Registered: May 28, 2002
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Honestly we beating a dead cow…u convince of your way and Im in mine I think the points has been made and Im not here for the argument sake I pass the facts as I know them …if u would like to bicker and ticker and find an arguments just for the sake of it god help u and me I just don’t have it in me
Enough said
peace
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darkside
Nov 6, 2002, 3:42 AM
Post #32 of 32
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Registered: Sep 15, 2001
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Then there the debate will end. Not an argument, as an argument is not open to change whereas I have modified my views a little. Yes we have differing views but I did find your take on them interesting and enjoy friendly debates. Please don't take it as arguing for the sake of it, I took an opposite stance to better illustrate scenarios for those not having fully formed an opinion. I do enjoy a good debate though, but sometimes get pedantic.
For the record I do not advocate everyone going out and using fifi's or tethers. Aspire to greater merit but decide for yourselves what is good form. Does anyone else want to take over this debate?
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