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bothomsen
Dec 1, 2008, 10:58 PM
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Hi just moving on, from the prvius subject.... :-)
how much can you lift when doing just one full movement Pull-up????
me: 138llbs - can pull extra 121lbs. =187% app.
Onsigt F6b+ ~5.10c
http://www.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=19230
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alexoverhere
Dec 2, 2008, 10:24 PM
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I tried this on the lat machine in the middle of a gym workout yesterday. I only tried twice (failed the second time with an additional 10 or 20lbs.), and think I could pull a bit more when fresh, as my ratio is quite low for my climbing grade.
Pulled: 240lbs.
Body weight: 160lbs.
SWR = 1.5 or 150%
On-sight: 5.11a
In Climbing Your Best, Heather Sagar suggests the lat-pulldown and/or weighted pull-ups to measure your back/shoulder strength-weight ratio. She provides the following target scores (p. 16, see the book for exact numbers):
5.10 ~150% women ~175% men
5.11 ~160% women ~185% men
5.12 ~170% women ~195% men
5.13 ~180% women ~200% men
5.14 ~190% women ~200%+ men
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viciado
Dec 2, 2008, 10:47 PM
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Normally, I would ignore this, but I recently participated out of friendship in a fellow climbers undergrad phys training paper.
Without going into all the details, for my part, I climb harder and better than one guy but cannot lift nearly the same as him in terms of percentage. Another participant could probably onsight my project if it were a shorter single pitch and I outperformed him by miles in all portions of the test.
While pulling up is a component of climbing, doing pull ups is not a good indicator of your overall ability.
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alexoverhere
Dec 2, 2008, 11:02 PM
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Well, post your maximum pull-down strength-to-weight data and your friends' if you have them. According to Sagar, there's a relationship between climbing grade and back/shoulder SWR, grip SWR, maximum # of sit-ups, reach (toward feet), and hip flexion. She doesn't include details about her sample size or data collection methods, but merely mentions that these data were collected over a 5-year period.
(p.s. Sagar defined the grades in my previous post as the maximum of 1) your redpoint grade and 2) your on-sight grade plus four letter grades.)
(This post was edited by alexoverhere on Dec 2, 2008, 11:02 PM)
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fxgranite
Dec 2, 2008, 11:04 PM
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alexoverhere wrote: In Climbing Your Best, Heather Sagar suggests the lat-pulldown and/or weighted pull-ups to measure your back/shoulder strength-weight ratio. She provides the following target scores (p. 16, see the book for exact numbers): 5.10 ~150% women ~175% men 5.11 ~160% women ~185% men 5.12 ~170% women ~195% men 5.13 ~180% women ~200% men 5.14 ~190% women ~200%+ men
I may be reading this wrong, but thats just flat out ridiculous. It suggests that my measly 150lbs would need to be able to do a pullup with an extra 112.5lbs of weight on me... Wtf kind of 5.10s are these If you need to be able to pull that hard to get up a 5.10 I have a suggestion for you:
Those things attached to the end of your legs are called feet. I suggest you use them.
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clews
Dec 2, 2008, 11:36 PM
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fxgranite wrote: alexoverhere wrote: In Climbing Your Best, Heather Sagar suggests the lat-pulldown and/or weighted pull-ups to measure your back/shoulder strength-weight ratio. She provides the following target scores (p. 16, see the book for exact numbers): 5.10 ~150% women ~175% men 5.11 ~160% women ~185% men 5.12 ~170% women ~195% men 5.13 ~180% women ~200% men 5.14 ~190% women ~200%+ men I may be reading this wrong, but thats just flat out ridiculous. It suggests that my measly 150lbs would need to be able to do a pullup with an extra 112.5lbs of weight on me... Wtf kind of 5.10s are these If you need to be able to pull that hard to get up a 5.10 I have a suggestion for you: Those things attached to the end of your legs are called feet. I suggest you use them.
exactly... lets do a little math
I weigh 175lbs
I climb 5.11-5.12
that averages to 192%... which means I would have to do a pull down of 326lbs??? I'm no climbing expert but that seems a little strange seeing as I feel i'm very competent in the pulldown category, and I don't think I could do close to that.
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clews
Dec 2, 2008, 11:37 PM
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and I know climbers who can't do a single chinup/pulldown of their equivalent weight who can climb 10's
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angry
Dec 2, 2008, 11:55 PM
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I'm supposed to do a pullup with 140lbs on me? Or what? I have to take 5.13 off my list?
This is stupid.
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shorty
Dec 3, 2008, 12:12 AM
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angry wrote: I'm supposed to do a pullup with 140lbs on me? Or what? I have to take 5.13 off my list? This is stupid.
I've spent more than my fair share of time in gyms, and I've never seen anyone do a one-armed pullup.
My climbing sucks, but I've had the pleasure of climbing with more than a few 5.13 & 5.14 climbers. None of them could even come close to doing a one-armed pullup. I have seen pictures of 2 world-class climbers doing one-armed pullups -- but that is all.
But based on the chart, at least I finally understand why I regularly on-sight 5.5. Assuming, of course, that it's a sport route with the draws in situ -- if I'm carrying a rack it drops to 5.3, due to all that extra weight.
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reno
Dec 3, 2008, 12:44 AM
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shorty wrote: I've spent more than my fair share of time in gyms, and I've never seen anyone do a one-armed pullup.
I've seen one guy do a single one armed pull-up. Once.
He was a Navy Seal, and wicked strong in the strength/weight ratio.
In reply to: But based on the chart, at least I finally understand why I regularly on-sight 5.5. Assuming, of course, that it's a sport route with the draws in situ -- if I'm carrying a rack it drops to 5.3, due to all that extra weight.
You forgot to mention how you use a stick clip on the first draw. But don't worry, I won't tell anyone.
Uh, wait. Never mind.
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alexoverhere
Dec 3, 2008, 1:49 AM
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You're all interpreting the table correctly. I thought I wouldn't be able to pull down much more than my body weight (in total) until I tried it, so if you're in disbelief about her figures, try it for yourself on a lat machine where it's safe and convenient.
And many [< 5.14] climbers claim to be able to do one-armed pull-ups -- see the recent "how many pull-ups" thread for examples. As for the "or what?" question, I suppose Sagar might argue that your pull-down strength is a relative weakness or strength if it's very different from her averages. But otherwise, there's no "or what;" I just found her figures interesting, and much higher than I would've expected. Assuming her data are accurate, they simply imply that pull-down strength increases rapidly with climbing grade (but probably not as a cause, as most of us don't specifically train their pull-down strength).
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nfowler50
Dec 3, 2008, 2:40 AM
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... uhhh... seriously? you think climbing(bouldering excluded) is about power?! Hmm... power does have to do with it but to send routes you need more muscle endurance than power. This means high reps, not lifting as much as you can once. I guess this helps with one move wonders but you don't need to be built like line men to send most routes.
Who cares if you can lift a ton of weight, how many times can you lift it?
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SLABMONKEY
Dec 3, 2008, 2:40 AM
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bothomsen wrote: Hi just moving on, from the prvius subject.... :-) how much can you lift when doing just one full movement Pull-up???? me: 138llbs - can pull extra 121lbs. =187% app. Onsigt F6b+ ~5.10c http://www.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=19230
This is a climbing site, not a strength demonstration site. Your body weight to strength ratio is skewed to lighter lifter. This is why in the powerlifting community we use the schwartz/ malone formula which puts everyone on an even keel. You need to use this formula when comparing to others of different body mass. This is why a lifter who lifts the heaviest weights may not win the overall competition. This whole pull up climbing crap is a joke. If you want to gloat on how strong you are do it in a competition with judges. For the record, I deadlifted 500# at about 210#, so this my friend makes my ratio quit high according to your basic formula. In short this is a non scientific discussion. By the way a raw pull up not on a machine is far harder than on one.
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dudemanbu
Dec 3, 2008, 3:29 AM
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My girlfriend regularly onsights 5.10 and can't do a single puillup. Not a single one. If she jumps, she can almost get one.. almost.
alexoverhere wrote: I tried this on the lat machine in the middle of a gym workout yesterday. I only tried twice (failed the second time with an additional 10 or 20lbs.), and think I could pull a bit more when fresh, as my ratio is quite low for my climbing grade. Pulled: 240lbs. Body weight: 160lbs. SWR = 1.5 or 150% On-sight: 5.11a In Climbing Your Best, Heather Sagar suggests the lat-pulldown and/or weighted pull-ups to measure your back/shoulder strength-weight ratio. She provides the following target scores (p. 16, see the book for exact numbers): 5.10 ~150% women ~175% men 5.11 ~160% women ~185% men 5.12 ~170% women ~195% men 5.13 ~180% women ~200% men 5.14 ~190% women ~200%+ men |
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clews
Dec 3, 2008, 4:25 AM
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shorty wrote: angry wrote: I'm supposed to do a pullup with 140lbs on me? Or what? I have to take 5.13 off my list? This is stupid. Exactly. The "chart" states that 5.13 & 5.14 climbers can pull down double their weight. In other words, they can do one-armed pullups. I've spent more than my fair share of time in gyms, and I've never seen anyone do a one-armed pullup. My climbing sucks, but I've had the pleasure of climbing with more than a few 5.13 & 5.14 climbers. None of them could even come close to doing a one-armed pullup. I have seen pictures of 2 world-class climbers doing one-armed pullups -- but that is all. But based on the chart, at least I finally understand why I regularly on-sight 5.5. Assuming, of course, that it's a sport route with the draws in situ -- if I'm carrying a rack it drops to 5.3, due to all that extra weight.
one arm's aren't that uncommon... you don't need to be a world class climber to do so. We have 5 or 6 world class climbers at our gym who can do one arms, but most of our core group of strong climbers can also do it. I can't, but i'm close and the climbers I climb with on a regular basis can.
(This post was edited by clews on Dec 3, 2008, 5:10 AM)
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lodi5onu
Dec 3, 2008, 1:11 PM
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clews wrote: shorty wrote: angry wrote: I'm supposed to do a pullup with 140lbs on me? Or what? I have to take 5.13 off my list? This is stupid. Exactly. The "chart" states that 5.13 & 5.14 climbers can pull down double their weight. In other words, they can do one-armed pullups. I've spent more than my fair share of time in gyms, and I've never seen anyone do a one-armed pullup. My climbing sucks, but I've had the pleasure of climbing with more than a few 5.13 & 5.14 climbers. None of them could even come close to doing a one-armed pullup. I have seen pictures of 2 world-class climbers doing one-armed pullups -- but that is all. But based on the chart, at least I finally understand why I regularly on-sight 5.5. Assuming, of course, that it's a sport route with the draws in situ -- if I'm carrying a rack it drops to 5.3, due to all that extra weight. one arm's aren't that uncommon... you don't need to be a world class climber to do so. We have 5 or 6 world class climbers at our gym who can do one arms, but most of our core group of strong climbers can also do it. I can't, but i'm close and the climbers I climb with on a regular basis can.
Plenty of women climb 5.14
I've never seen a woman (climber) do a 1-arm pullup
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clews
Dec 3, 2008, 3:39 PM
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... and the table says 5.14 women climbers are only at 190%. I'm not saying that the table is 100% correct, but I do think it's closer than I had first expected.
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shorty
Dec 3, 2008, 4:08 PM
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reno wrote: shorty wrote: But based on the chart, at least I finally understand why I regularly on-sight 5.5. Assuming, of course, that it's a sport route with the draws in situ -- if I'm carrying a rack it drops to 5.3, due to all that extra weight. You forgot to mention how you use a stick clip on the first draw. But don't worry, I won't tell anyone.
Au contraire, ex-desert-dude -- I stick clip the third draw on a 5.5.
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dynosore
Dec 3, 2008, 5:14 PM
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angry wrote: I'm supposed to do a pullup with 140lbs on me? Or what? I have to take 5.13 off my list? This is stupid.
Hey angry, do you climb .13? You don't bring up how uber hard you climb often enough and I was just wondering?
spraysprayspray
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limeydave
Dec 3, 2008, 6:24 PM
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alexoverhere wrote: I tried this on the lat machine in the middle of a gym workout yesterday. I only tried twice (failed the second time with an additional 10 or 20lbs.), and think I could pull a bit more when fresh, as my ratio is quite low for my climbing grade. Pulled: 240lbs. Body weight: 160lbs. SWR = 1.5 or 150% On-sight: 5.11a In Climbing Your Best, Heather Sagar suggests the lat-pulldown and/or weighted pull-ups to measure your back/shoulder strength-weight ratio. She provides the following target scores (p. 16, see the book for exact numbers): 5.10 ~150% women ~175% men 5.11 ~160% women ~185% men 5.12 ~170% women ~195% men 5.13 ~180% women ~200% men 5.14 ~190% women ~200%+ men
After careful analysis and scientific pondering I have decided that this is crap.
While it might be true, that some 5.11 male climbers can pull up 185% of their body weight, it is neither true to say that in order to onsight 5.11 you must be able to do this. Nor is it true to say that if you onsight 5.11, you can pull-up 185% of your bodyweight.
ipso facto ergo hocus pocus.
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alexoverhere
Dec 3, 2008, 8:42 PM
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limeydave wrote: After careful analysis and scientific pondering I have decided that this is crap. While it might be true, that some 5.11 male climbers can pull up 185% of their body weight, it is neither true to say that in order to onsight 5.11 you must be able to do this. Nor is it true to say that if you onsight 5.11, you can pull-up 185% of your bodyweight. ipso facto ergo hocus pocus.
I don't understand what's so confusing or hocus pocus about this. She surveyed climbers, averaged several measurements such as pull-down strength, and published the results. No one ever said entries of that table were necessary or sufficient conditions.
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limeydave
Dec 3, 2008, 8:47 PM
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alexoverhere wrote: limeydave wrote: After careful analysis and scientific pondering I have decided that this is crap. While it might be true, that some 5.11 male climbers can pull up 185% of their body weight, it is neither true to say that in order to onsight 5.11 you must be able to do this. Nor is it true to say that if you onsight 5.11, you can pull-up 185% of your bodyweight. ipso facto ergo hocus pocus. I don't understand what's so confusing or hocus pocus about this. She surveyed climbers, averaged several measurements such as pull-down strength, and published the results. No one ever said entries of that table were necessary or sufficient conditions.
in which case it is a pointless comparison.
ipso facto ergo pointless hocus pocus
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limeydave
Dec 3, 2008, 8:54 PM
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Seriously though, there are other factors which are not only highly significant, but impossible to measure.
Like technique.
Not to mention the fact that as we all know, the grades are subjective, and every climb is different and requires different techniques and muscular ability.
And then there are the head games. Measure that.
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angry
Dec 3, 2008, 11:48 PM
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dynosore wrote: angry wrote: I'm supposed to do a pullup with 140lbs on me? Or what? I have to take 5.13 off my list? This is stupid. Hey angry, do you climb .13? You don't bring up how uber hard you climb often enough and I was just wondering? spraysprayspray
5.13 is the new 5.10
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msiwoski
Dec 4, 2008, 1:36 AM
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The article about the relation between pulldown and onsight level doesn't actually state that it's necessary. It just suggests getting up to that specific level.
That does make sense, pushing yourself to a level near/around those percentages. Doesn't mean you'll be able to get to the grade of climbing, but just means that you should have sufficient lat strength. As for grip/endurance/technique/owning bad ass spandex, that's a different story.
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