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Valarc
Feb 2, 2009, 8:09 PM
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dingus wrote: Valarc wrote: [ A locking biner through both tie in points probably won't get you killed, but you're delusional if you think it's in any way superior from a safety stand point. Now superior from a comfort or ergonomics or convenience standpoint, possibly - that's a tradeoff for you to decide. I'll stick to using my harness in the way it was designed. I used a biner through the harness for 15-20 years before a commercial harness belay loops were even available. I had trust issues with belay loops, back at the beginning. But I guess I'm dead from all that cross loading anyway, so nothing really matters. BURP! DMT
I don't disagree. As I said, I don't think a biner through the tie in points is significantly more dangerous. I also sure as hell don't buy the argument that it's safer, either.
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Valarc
Feb 2, 2009, 8:13 PM
Post #27 of 113
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randyb wrote: Fewer pieces equal less parts to worry about failing. If you take a look at your harness you are basically turning your locking beaner into a belay loop that follows the exact path as the loop. It is clearly not a normal thing to worry about your belay loop failing but I imagine Todd Skinner would offer advice about belay loops if he had survived the faliure of his...
I imagine he would offer more advice about inspecting and replacing gear.
Belay loops are consistently rated FAR stronger than the closed gate strength of belay carabiners. If you're that worried about the weak link in your system, you'd be better off switching to a steel belay biner than bypassing the belay loop.
Look, if you like using your belay biner through the harness points, good on you, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're any safer by doing so.
(This post was edited by Valarc on Feb 2, 2009, 8:14 PM)
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fxgranite
Feb 2, 2009, 8:15 PM
Post #28 of 113
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dingus wrote: Valarc wrote: randyb wrote: For more security just run your locking beaner that you are belaying with through your harness and skip the belay loop all together. I have always done it this way and feel it NEVER hurts to be too safe. Just follow the same path as your safety attachment. I wonder what the folks at Black Diamond or Petzl would say about your assertion that this is somehow automagically safer. Belay loops were invented for a reason, and there's a reason there are very few commercial harnesses on the market without them anymore. A locking biner through both tie in points probably won't get you killed, but you're delusional if you think it's in any way superior from a safety stand point. Now superior from a comfort or ergonomics or convenience standpoint, possibly - that's a tradeoff for you to decide. I'll stick to using my harness in the way it was designed. I used a biner through the harness for 15-20 years before a commercial harness belay loops were even available. I had trust issues with belay loops, back at the beginning. But I guess I'm dead from all that cross loading anyway, so nothing really matters. BURP! DMT
Well that was back before such things as crossloading and microfractures were invented so it doesn't really count
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randyb
Feb 2, 2009, 8:21 PM
Post #29 of 113
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please read this from a mfg site.
The Belay Loop is the circle of nylon webbing in the front and centre of the harness. This loop is where you attach the belay device. When arresting a fall or rappelling, the belay loop bears the bulk of the load. Like carabiners, the belay loop is tested and given a strength rating measured in kN. The nylon webbing used to build the belay loop is incredibly strong and will withstand loads in excess of several thousand pounds.
Although it's possible to tie in to the belay loop, most manufacturers recommend that you thread the rope through the leg and waist, areas that are padded to prevent abrasion. Always follow the manufacturer's directions for tying in and belaying.
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fxgranite
Feb 2, 2009, 8:22 PM
Post #30 of 113
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randyb wrote: Fewer pieces equal less parts to worry about failing. If you take a look at your harness you are basically turning your locking beaner into a belay loop that follows the exact path as the loop. It is clearly not a normal thing to worry about your belay loop failing but I imagine Todd Skinner would offer advice about belay loops if he had survived the faliure of his...
Everytime I hear someone talk about belay loop failure it seems that Skinner comes up. To be honest, its the only failure I've heard about and the way I understand it*, its not even that useful of an example. Tragic yes, but what I remember reading is that his daisy chain had managed to saw/wear through a substantial portion of the loop. To me that seems like using a coreshot rope failure as an example of general failure. Well duh it failed, what did you expect? Thats why its good to check your gear frequently.
*I may not understand the accident at all. Its been a little while since I went through it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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fxgranite
Feb 2, 2009, 8:24 PM
Post #31 of 113
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dammit valarc, you got to everything I responded to first
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Valarc
Feb 2, 2009, 8:27 PM
Post #32 of 113
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randyb wrote: please read this from a mfg site. The Belay Loop is the circle of nylon webbing in the front and centre of the harness. This loop is where you attach the belay device. When arresting a fall or rappelling, the belay loop bears the bulk of the load. Like carabiners, the belay loop is tested and given a strength rating measured in kN. The nylon webbing used to build the belay loop is incredibly strong and will withstand loads in excess of several thousand pounds. Although it's possible to tie in to the belay loop, most manufacturers recommend that you thread the rope through the leg and waist, areas that are padded to prevent abrasion. Always follow the manufacturer's directions for tying in and belaying.
Is this supposed to somehow refute something I said? I don't get what your point is.
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fresh
Feb 2, 2009, 8:28 PM
Post #33 of 113
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randyb wrote: it NEVER hurts to be too safe.
I guess you always want to optimize safety, but I feel like making things over-redundant only leads to a false sense of security. this definitely doesn't mean it's OK to be careless. but there's completely safe, and there's safe enough.
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randyb
Feb 2, 2009, 8:29 PM
Post #34 of 113
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You said you wonder what the Mfg's say, they recommend not using the belay loop. I can help you with simple math if you would like also. I will start slowly... 1 plus 1 equals 2
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Factor2
Feb 2, 2009, 8:34 PM
Post #35 of 113
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randyb wrote: You said you wonder what the Mfg's say, they recommend not using the belay loop. I can help you with simple math if you would like also. I will start slowly... 1 plus 1 equals 2
how does this
In reply to: The Belay Loop is the circle of nylon webbing in the front and centre of the harness. This loop is where you attach the belay device. When arresting a fall or rappelling, the belay loop bears the bulk of the load. Like carabiners, the belay loop is tested and given a strength rating measured in kN. The nylon webbing used to build the belay loop is incredibly strong and will withstand loads in excess of several thousand pounds.
in any way, recommened not using the belay loop?
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randyb
Feb 2, 2009, 8:35 PM
Post #36 of 113
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Although it's possible to tie in to the belay loop, most manufacturers recommend that you thread the rope through the leg and waist, areas that are padded to prevent abrasion. Always follow the manufacturer's directions for tying in and belaying.
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Valarc
Feb 2, 2009, 8:36 PM
Post #37 of 113
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randyb wrote: Although it's possible to tie in to the belay loop, most manufacturers recommend that you thread the rope through the leg and waist, areas that are padded to prevent abrasion. Always follow the manufacturer's directions for tying in and belaying.
The rope, not the belay carabiner, you twit.
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binrat
Feb 2, 2009, 8:38 PM
Post #38 of 113
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randyb wrote: Although it's possible to tie in to the belay loop, most manufacturers recommend that you thread the rope through the leg and waist, areas that are padded to prevent abrasion. Always follow the manufacturer's directions for tying in and belaying.
Randy - think abrasion here
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Factor2
Feb 2, 2009, 8:38 PM
Post #39 of 113
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randyb wrote: Although it's possible to tie in to the belay loop, most manufacturers recommend that you thread the rope through the leg and waist, areas that are padded to prevent abrasion. Always follow the manufacturer's directions for tying in and belaying.
and for belaying they recommend using the belay loop
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rgold
Feb 2, 2009, 9:17 PM
Post #40 of 113
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The crossloading issues I've heard about occurring when a biner is clipped to the waist and leg loops directly have all occurred with a figure-8 device. And it isn't a question of pulling straight out on the gate, it is a levering action that can happen if the eight slips into a certain position.
Unquestionably a concern, rappelling fatalities have resulted. But other types of belay devices do not produce this levering effect, and I think in all those cases the potential for cross-loading is more of a hypothetical worry than anything that has actually happened with serious consequences. The tendency to cross-load depends on how the leg loop and waist tie-in points situate under load---the closer together they get, the more chance the biner has to pivot in response to the load and so not crossload.
It should also be noted that that the belay biner can be cross-loaded when clipped to the belay loop too.
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tradrenn
Feb 2, 2009, 9:56 PM
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If I was in your shoes I would tie in with my rope using figure 8 knot, back that up with double fisherman than clip my belay biner thru belay loop and second loop created by the rope. Do that for belaying lead or top rope and you always be 100% secure.
Also get a new harness every 5 years.
V.
Edit: You forgot to mention that we only belay with one biner.
(This post was edited by tradrenn on Feb 2, 2009, 10:01 PM)
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dynosore
Feb 2, 2009, 10:14 PM
Post #42 of 113
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For maximum safety, I just stay on the ground and post here instead.
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time2clmb
Feb 2, 2009, 10:45 PM
Post #44 of 113
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randyb wrote: You said you wonder what the Mfg's say, they recommend not using the belay loop. I can help you with simple math if you would like also. I will start slowly... 1 plus 1 equals 2
They recommend the belay loop for belaying and rapping, why do you think they call it a belay loop? They don't recommend the belay loop for TYING IN, that's what the tie in points are for.
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joeforte
Feb 3, 2009, 12:35 AM
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Maddhatter wrote: coastal_climber wrote: If your that worried, double it up with a piece of webbing. Or a locker
Petzl recently put out a warning that specifically addressed this issue. Their opinion was that this is a BAD IDEA, and only the BELAY LOOP should be used for the attachment of belay devices. The belay loop distributes the force evenly between the two tie-in points and allows the belay biner to be loaded directly along it's major axis.
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spikeddem
Feb 3, 2009, 1:10 AM
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fresh wrote: the reason is probably close to the same reason you only have one belay loop. one is good enough. if you want to think about it mathtematically, the difference between one in a million and one in a trillion is probably not enough to double and triple absolutely everything.
Just going to point out that in a world with a million climbers in it there is a difference . . .
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patto
Feb 3, 2009, 1:55 AM
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I have two testicals just in case.
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Valarc
Feb 3, 2009, 2:50 AM
Post #48 of 113
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dynosore wrote: For maximum safety, I just stay on the ground and post here instead.
That's really the best way to keep yourself protected.
patto wrote: I have two testicals just in case.
And that's pretty much all the redundancy you need.
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jmvc
Feb 3, 2009, 3:39 PM
Post #49 of 113
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Great thread guys.. rc.com at it's finest!
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fxgranite
Feb 3, 2009, 4:12 PM
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jmvc wrote: Great thread guys.. rc.com at it's finest!
Gah and now you ruined it!
It WAS the greatest thread in awhile. A symphony if you will, a thesis, a poem. Complete with intro, verse, a series of choruses, and a perfect conclusion by Valarc.
You're like the stupid hippy in the back shouting freebird, the person who wants to talk after sex, and the big fat friend all rolled into one
Edit: conclusion by valarc
(This post was edited by fxgranite on Feb 3, 2009, 4:13 PM)
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