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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 29, 2009, 2:43 AM
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I posted this over at supertopo, wondering your thoughts too !Hello everyone, I just thought up an anchor and would like some feedback if would be so kind :)
As far as I can tell it is completely redundant for all components (protection, cord, crabs). Also I think it adheres to SERENE without sacrificing dynamic equalization for no extension (of course adherence with SERENE only applies to protection failure, not cord failure etc). Even better than that, it uses minimal gear, or as minimal as it could with the above properties.
There is a slight bit of extension. It is equal to half the distance between the failing protection and the protection attached to the failing protection with the extension limiter strand. But this is half or less (depending on how close the protection is) of what other designs yield.
It is fast to setup because the knots that are not clove hitches can be tied before a climb, and it takes minimal cord. Basically to setup it requires 3 clove hitch adjustments, not long.
The clove hitches are there only to adjust length if you have no runners. Once can forgo the clove hitches to adjust and just extend which ever of the three ends you need to to be faster, since it all equalizes out.
The two and three protection versions are below (3 protection version only needs an additional 2 crabs and 1 small sling) as well as a very bad wrong version. Can anybody spot the deficiency in the wrong version? :D
(This post was edited by jonathan.gaillard on Nov 29, 2009, 3:28 AM)
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crazy_fingers84
Nov 29, 2009, 2:46 AM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: I posted this over at supertopo, wondering your thoughts too ! [image] Hello everyone, I just thought up an anchor and would like some feedback if would be so kind :) As far as I can tell it is completely redundant for all components (protection, cord, crabs). Also I think it adheres to SERENE without sacrificing dynamic equalization for no extension (of course adherence with SERENE only applies to protection failure, not cord failure etc). Even better than that, it uses minimal gear, or as minimal as it could with the above properties. There is a slight bit of extension. It is equal to half the distance between the failing protection and the protection attached to the failing protection with the extension limiter strand. But this is half or less (depending on how close the protection is) of what other designs yield. The two and three protection versions are below (3 protection version only needs an additional 2 crabs and 1 small sling) as well as a very bad wrong version. Can anybody spot the deficiency in the wrong version? :D    |
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brokesomeribs
Nov 29, 2009, 3:49 AM
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You can't actually be serious.
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reno
Nov 29, 2009, 3:56 AM
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That is FAR too complicated.
K.I.S.S.
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moose_droppings
Nov 29, 2009, 4:12 AM
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A couple quick points.
You can't have equalization without extension.
The R in SERENE stands for redundant, and yes it applies to everything in an anchor including cord.
The anchor with just 2 points of pro is waaay over designed and can be equally achieved with much less material. Actually i think all 3 off them are.
On your 3 point anchor where the bottom left leg ties into the 2 points connected together, if that cord on the 2 blows, your anchor is in for one long ride.
Any piece of pro in any of those configurations blows and you will have extension. Whether it's enough to be a deal killer or not, I think the jury is still out on that one.
I might have more to say if I got more time to look at another time.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 29, 2009, 4:31 AM)
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 29, 2009, 4:28 AM
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You indeed CAN have equalization without extension. With the normal argument, you get a direct relationship out of the two. Well through design you can change that, such as this one. As I stated before the extension is equal to half of the length between the protection that failed and the protection that is connected to it with the top runner. In a normal 45 degree or so V extension is only around a third of a leg length, as opposed to the full leg length on a magic X anchor.
The anchor is completely redundant once over. What I meant with my statement about SERENE, was that it is only meant to satisfy them all when protection blows. Other events like cord cut, and they are not all satisfied at once, like most anchors.
If you ran both the biners through both masterpoint cords, if one protection blows they simply run off the end...
Actually if that cord your talking about blows, the knot holds the master biners not the other biner.
If you can come up with the same performance, simpler, GREAT ! post it up and I can't wait to use it.
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healyje
Nov 29, 2009, 4:37 AM
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ST was entirely the wrong place to post this. This on the otherhand was the right place (such as it is).
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majid_sabet
Nov 29, 2009, 4:59 AM
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full CF and one of the worse troll I have seen in a long long time.
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 29, 2009, 5:06 AM
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Troll: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Thats a great way of demonstrating, majid_sabet
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USnavy
Nov 29, 2009, 5:16 AM
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That shit is way too complicated. KISS! Just use a damm sliding X with two slings for god sake!! The sliding X is redundant with two slings and extremely easy and fast to set up. If you are worried about "shock loading (insert ghost sounds here)" then just use cordalette and tie a knot at the end. Much simpler, completely bomber, works with any number of anchors, and minimal hardware required.
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coolcat83
Nov 29, 2009, 5:46 AM
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that CF does what could be done in a much simpler way, faster, and without all the fuss. KISS
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curt
Nov 29, 2009, 5:48 AM
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What if you need an anchor you can build in less that three hours?
Curt
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 29, 2009, 5:51 AM
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The goal was for competely SERENE, including dynamic equalization and no extension...
obviously there are other none SERENE methods that are quicker... but thats not the point here.
I am trying to get it as simple as possible with still keeping SERENE, not to mention I don't think any anchor has yet to be completely SERENE and this is as close as I have seen.
Honestly if you don't want equalization the easiest and best thing is to just clove your poinst in series, then there is no extension and its redundant. The cordelette and quickdraws even have a little extension in comparison.
(This post was edited by jonathan.gaillard on Nov 29, 2009, 6:03 AM)
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USnavy
Nov 29, 2009, 7:25 AM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: I am trying to get it as simple as possible
The sliding X with cordlette and a figure eight at the end meets SERENE and its 1/4 as complicated as your CF.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Nov 29, 2009, 7:28 AM)
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 29, 2009, 8:38 AM
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the regular sliding X binds under load, and with the knot it is not equalizing, so I don't see how that is SERENE.
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johnwesely
Nov 29, 2009, 11:48 AM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: the regular sliding X binds under load, and with the knot it is not equalizing, so I don't see how that is SERENE.
I don't see how it really matters.
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socalclimber
Nov 29, 2009, 1:01 PM
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T0 - CF10
Can you imagine trying to build this cluster fuck on a wall?
Why isn't this in the beginners forum where it belongs?
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Nov 29, 2009, 1:30 PM)
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j_ung
Nov 29, 2009, 1:58 PM
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I think you're a little too enamored of the SRENE concept.
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patto
Nov 29, 2009, 2:14 PM
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SERENE is a mathematical impossibility if you require dynamic equalisation. In practice perfect equalisation is an impossibility without dynamic equalisation. Thus in practice SERENE is impossible.
However a well set up cordalette or rope anchor with the direction of fall well anticipated can have adequate equalisation and have no extension.
As others have said. K.I.S.S.
moose_droppings wrote: The R in SERENE stands for redundant, and yes it applies to everything in an anchor including cord.
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 29, 2009, 3:03 PM
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I'm just wondering why john longs equalette didn't receive such "its useless" remarks when his book was published. This is faster and better performing. Not a lot faster though...
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coolcat83
Nov 29, 2009, 3:11 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: I'm just wondering why john longs equalette didn't receive such "its useless" remarks when his book was published. This is faster and better performing. Not a lot faster though...
A. it did get comments from some people that it was unnecessary and a cf.
B. it's pretty fast and easy to set up and is another tool you can use if the situation warrants it.
i'm not sure when i'd ever want to take the time to tie your setup and i don't see any significant advantages to it over the equalette.
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 29, 2009, 3:12 PM
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patto:
SERENE is not an impossibility with dynamic equalization, it just hasn't been designed yet. And the "math" you speak of only applies to current designs, a new design would change that "math".
But I do agree that the redundancy quest is a fallable one. Like you said there are many instances where we don't use it. However that is only because the single unit in question has its safety margin built into it. When one can't build in the safety margin or there is a recognized uncontrollable factor, we use redundancy to keep us safe. Example would be multiple protection points in an anchor because we can't be certain of ones strength. We also can't be certain cord won't be cut by rock on swings etc, so we double it up. Same with crabs being loaded on their side or over an edge etc (that stuff does happen in accident reports) so we double those up to. But when the crab is on your harness, there is no chance of loading across rock etc so we don't double... this should be basic engineering practice. But there is merit to adhering to the SERENE practice, thats why it was thought up. This anchor proves you can get better than the direct relationship previously thought was possible between extension and equalization.
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patto
Nov 29, 2009, 3:12 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: I'm just wondering why john longs equalette didn't receive such "its useless" remarks when his book was published. This is faster and better performing. Not a lot faster though...
Will it make you feel better if I said that it did?
The equalette received considerable criticism when it was discussed on these forums BEFORE the publication of the book.
In my opinion the equalette is overly complicated and unecessary. You design is even more complicated, the hand drawn pictures and presentation adds to this impression.
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Oddball
Nov 29, 2009, 3:14 PM
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USnavy wrote: That shit is way too complicated. KISS! Just use a damm sliding X with two slings for god sake!! The sliding X is redundant with two slings and extremely easy and fast to set up. If you are worried about "shock loading (insert ghost sounds here)" then just use cordalette and tie a knot at the end. Much simpler, completely bomber, works with any number of anchors, and minimal hardware required.
Gotta agree with you USnavy. Sliding X would make it way easier with less gear and you actually only need 1 sling if you put a limiting know on each side of the sling to make it completely redundant, whcih would take at most 5 minutes to set up rather then these monstrosities that are completely impractical.
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 29, 2009, 3:14 PM
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coolcat83:
Ah ok I wasn't aware it got those comments as well, thanks I didn't know.
Well I've said the advantages, but I will repeat them in case it wasn't clear.
If you tie the non clove hitches before you leave ground, this anchor is faster to setup than the equalette, and for the same amount of cord acheives much better lack of extension, and retains all dynamic equalization. It is also redundant with regards to cord and crab failure, without any extra gear than the equalette.
Those are significant advantages I believe, of course we all have our own opinions :)
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