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rschap
Nov 30, 2010, 3:59 PM
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I also wanted to say I'm not trying to tell anyone how to run their gym, and I understand that not all models work everywhere. I just wanted to put out a different point of view.
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vegastradguy
Nov 30, 2010, 4:15 PM
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rschap wrote: I also wanted to say I'm not trying to tell anyone how to run their gym, and I understand that not all models work everywhere. I just wanted to put out a different point of view.
No ones disputing your point of view, or saying its inferior- in fact, we've all gone out of our way to try and explain to you why we (or the gyms we've climbed at) do things a certain way.
Its fine to disagree- but perhaps thinking about the approach you disagree with before you type it may be more productive than just dismissing other peoples thoughts out of hand because you dont like them.
At any rate, I think your approach is fine- great, even. Its how I instruct, and how the gym I climb at instructs. Its how most instructors I know instruct. In a perfect world, that would be the only basis for instruction. Unfortunately, its not a perfect world.
Also, just for clarity, MOST gyms I know require that you can climb 5.9, not lead it, to take a lead class. Being able to get up 5.9 in the gym usually takes a month or two at the most, which, imho, is a minimum amount of time climbing for a leader. Time and rate, imho, is more important than the number someone climbs. I want someone comfortable with their surroundings before they get on the sharp end.
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Jooler
Nov 30, 2010, 5:43 PM
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rschap wrote: I appear to have offended you and that was not my intent. I can see how my last post can be perceived as name calling and my choice of words was not the best. I will admit it is unlikely anyone will reverse my position on this matter but that is not a reason to not have a discution. I make up my own mind but I bounce ideas off of others to see their opinions, and welcome a debate. I posted this question because I honestly can not see a reason for a rule like this. You raise good points but I do disagree with you. In our gym if a beginner climber wants to learn to lead and I don't feel he's ready I set up a QuickDraw low to the ground and tell him/her, when you can clip this with either hand in either direction while hanging on the wall I will give you the next step. Then the next step is demonstriaghting proper top rope belay without any mistakes on an ATC for at least a week. Little things like this keep them engaged while leaving it up to them and giving options rather than you're just not good enough.
You teach them how to lead clip BEFORE top rope belay?!
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vegastradguy
Nov 30, 2010, 6:03 PM
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Jooler wrote: rschap wrote: I appear to have offended you and that was not my intent. I can see how my last post can be perceived as name calling and my choice of words was not the best. I will admit it is unlikely anyone will reverse my position on this matter but that is not a reason to not have a discution. I make up my own mind but I bounce ideas off of others to see their opinions, and welcome a debate. I posted this question because I honestly can not see a reason for a rule like this. You raise good points but I do disagree with you. In our gym if a beginner climber wants to learn to lead and I don't feel he's ready I set up a QuickDraw low to the ground and tell him/her, when you can clip this with either hand in either direction while hanging on the wall I will give you the next step. Then the next step is demonstriaghting proper top rope belay without any mistakes on an ATC for at least a week. Little things like this keep them engaged while leaving it up to them and giving options rather than you're just not good enough. You teach them how to lead clip BEFORE top rope belay?!
ah, i didnt notice that. i tend to teach the other way around, as i like people to be competent TR belayers before even considering teaching them about lead belaying/climbing.
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rschap
Nov 30, 2010, 6:22 PM
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No, It's a tactic to get them to focus on proper belay and to get them thinking about their belay instead of going through the motions. I was talking with the assumption they already know how to top rope belay.
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j_ung
Nov 30, 2010, 7:27 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: rschap wrote: I would also rather see someone fumbling a clip while hanging on a big jug with good feet for their first lead. Yeah, uh, it's called 5.9 in the gym. Seriously- a slightly overhanging 5.9 in the gym will be giant holds with one thin move after a bolt.
You know I love you (friend way), but that's an even more laughably simple generalization than the all-gyms-are-featherbagged one. 
Hundreds of times, I tell you, I've disproved that by doing exactly what you say can't be done.
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jt512
Nov 30, 2010, 11:09 PM
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rschap wrote: [W]hen you can clip this with either hand in either direction while hanging on the wall I will give you the next step . . .
. . . Grasshopper.
Jay
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hafilax
Dec 1, 2010, 12:11 AM
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At the gym I go to, even with the biggest jugs available, the lowest grade they'll put in the lead area is 5.9. I'm not sure that the number accurately portrays the difficulty; it is what it is.
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kletter1mann
Dec 1, 2010, 2:01 AM
Post #36 of 116
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rschap wrote: kletter1mann wrote: vegastradguy wrote: theres a couple of reasons, actually. 1) time climbing. usually someone who is comfortable enough to take the sharp end should be able to climb 5.9 in the gym. 2) steepness. gyms want you to be on overhanging terrain when you're leading- at least most of the time. this makes for safer falls. most gyms dont make their vert to slab walls leadable, or if they do, its not much of it. 3) generally speaking, most gyms just dont set routes under 5.9 for leading. most people who lead are cranking .10 or harder (in the gym) and theres just no point in having a bunch of 5.6s in the gym that are leadable. i guess you can call that elitist, but the reality is that 5.9 in the gym is just not that hard and if you cant manage it, the gym owner is probably not going to be psyched to have you on the sharp end. Coming from a gym owner with lots of beginners AND hard core 5.12 types: exactly what he said. Some weaker climbers complain about it, but guess what - they're the ones I really don't want leading. We keep most of the leading away from the toproping anyhow. And if some old timer comes in saying he used to pull 5.11s at the gunks but now he just climbs 7's, we'll let him have at it. But there won't be much to climb cause there aren't enough people like that to make the setting worthwhile. Finally, to point #3, setting leadable 5.6's on a wall like this isn't easy. You are entitled to your opinion and I’m not trying to change your mind but that is exactly the elitist attitude I suspected was behind a rule like this.
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jt512
Dec 1, 2010, 2:13 AM
Post #37 of 116
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kletter1mann wrote: rschap wrote: kletter1mann wrote: vegastradguy wrote: theres a couple of reasons, actually. 1) time climbing. usually someone who is comfortable enough to take the sharp end should be able to climb 5.9 in the gym. 2) steepness. gyms want you to be on overhanging terrain when you're leading- at least most of the time. this makes for safer falls. most gyms dont make their vert to slab walls leadable, or if they do, its not much of it. 3) generally speaking, most gyms just dont set routes under 5.9 for leading. most people who lead are cranking .10 or harder (in the gym) and theres just no point in having a bunch of 5.6s in the gym that are leadable. i guess you can call that elitist, but the reality is that 5.9 in the gym is just not that hard and if you cant manage it, the gym owner is probably not going to be psyched to have you on the sharp end. Coming from a gym owner with lots of beginners AND hard core 5.12 types: exactly what he said. Some weaker climbers complain about it, but guess what - they're the ones I really don't want leading. We keep most of the leading away from the toproping anyhow. And if some old timer comes in saying he used to pull 5.11s at the gunks but now he just climbs 7's, we'll let him have at it. But there won't be much to climb cause there aren't enough people like that to make the setting worthwhile. Finally, to point #3, setting leadable 5.6's on a wall like this isn't easy. You are entitled to your opinion and I’m not trying to change your mind but that is exactly the elitist attitude I suspected was behind a rule like this. So where exactly is the "elitism"?
It starts at 5.9, apparently.
Jay
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lena_chita
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Dec 1, 2010, 3:09 PM
Post #38 of 116
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rschap wrote: Can someone give me a non elitist reason why a person would have to be able to lead at least a 5.9 in order to pass a lead test in a gym?
Limited evidence, but... here's a story, for what it is worth.
The gym owner at a place where I climb regularly decided not to require any specific level of climbing ability during one of his lead climbing clinics a couple of years ago, and there were several relatively weak climbers who were interested in taking the class.
After that one time, he swore never to do it again. These people simply have not been able to hang on to a jug on an overhanging wall one-handed long enough to let go with the other hand and clip. Forget any specific grade, they didn't have t oclimb aspecific route while leading, they could have just rainbowed up the wall... except they couldn't even do that. So he spent time teaching them how to flag and turn the hips in, b/c really, that's part of climbing on overhanging wall and being able to hang long enough to clip... and they never actually led-- they did mock lead on toprope, hanging mutiple times and being pulled up with tension.
Sure, they learned about backclipping and z-clipping, and toprope transfer, and basics of lead belay. They wanted to take a class, and they got to take it. But guess what? Two-three years after the fact, how many of these people are actually climbing, let alone leading? ZERO.
What was the point of that class? Why teach people who are really not yet at the point where they could take advantage of the skills they learn? We don't teach calculus to 1-st graders who are still learning their way with addition/subtraction and don't expect to hear a comprehensive plot analysis from kids who are just learning to sound out words.
So I believe now the requirement is back. They don't call it any specific grade b/c our gym just calls routes easy/medium/hard, and the person teaching the class mades the decision based on their personal knowledge/observation of the climber who wants to take the class, I guess. But in order to take the lead class the person must be able (on a toprope) to climb all the way up the gently-overhanging wall without struggling much. And yeah, it comes to being able to climb something roughly 5.9ish, and having at least several months of toprope climbing experience.
It makes sense b/c we all know that your climbing ability takes a hit when you get on the sharp end for the first time. Someone who can just climb 5.9 on a toprope, will be shaking, over-gripping and pumping out on 5.7-5.8 the first few times... so really, when you are asking for 5.9 toprope climbing ability, you are asking for bare minimum in terms of leadable sport routes.
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j_ung
Dec 1, 2010, 3:14 PM
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^^ I've bumped up against that problem, as well, on several occasions. For those people, I focused almost entirely on lead belaying, which I felt was a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
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guangzhou
Dec 2, 2010, 2:19 AM
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I don't see any point in it. Actually, I think people should start leading as soon as possible. Indoor or outdoors. Grades have nothing to do with leading in my opinion.
Waiting to long to learn to lead builds a unreal fear of leading instead of an awareness of the risk.
This goes for indoors or out.
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lena_chita
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Dec 2, 2010, 6:37 PM
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guangzhou wrote: I don't see any point in it. Actually, I think people should start leading as soon as possible. Indoor or outdoors. Grades have nothing to do with leading in my opinion. Waiting to long to learn to lead builds a unreal fear of leading instead of an awareness of the risk. This goes for indoors or out.
I actually don't see much point in leading indoors... other than a few times done for learning, and other than super-steep long roofs that are not safe to toprope. Not every gym even has these!
And in that case, we are back to "first, you should be able to demonstrate that you have a decent chance of climbing these kinds of steep routes"-- and I cannot believe that you can possibly make a route on a continuous severe overhang that would be less than 5.9.
If i were a gym owner and I had a gym with this sort of leadable severely overhanging walls, I would also have a similarly-overhanging section in the bouldering cave, and I would require the would-be leaders to demostrate that they can climb a few easy juggy problems on that roofy bouldering wall...
I find it a bit ridiculous that we are discussing this as if 5.9 were some crazy grade unatainable by most, and thus this 5.9 requirement for leading in a gym was keeping a majority of climbers from sport leading.
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Jooler
Dec 2, 2010, 7:03 PM
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lena_chita wrote: guangzhou wrote: I don't see any point in it. Actually, I think people should start leading as soon as possible. Indoor or outdoors. Grades have nothing to do with leading in my opinion. Waiting to long to learn to lead builds a unreal fear of leading instead of an awareness of the risk. This goes for indoors or out. other than a few times done for learning, and other than super-steep long roofs that are not safe to toprope. Not every gym even has these! And in that case, we are back to "first, you should be able to demonstrate that you have a decent chance of climbing these kinds of steep routes"-- and I cannot believe that you can possibly make a route on a continuous severe overhang that would be less than 5.9. If i were a gym owner and I had a gym with this sort of leadable severely overhanging walls, I would also have a similarly-overhanging section in the bouldering cave, and I would require the would-be leaders to demostrate that they can climb a few easy juggy problems on that roofy bouldering wall... I find it a bit ridiculous that we are discussing this as if 5.9 were some crazy grade unatainable by most, and thus this 5.9 requirement for leading in a gym was keeping a majority of climbers from sport leading.
Just curious...why would you rather top rope indoors than lead?
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petsfed
Dec 2, 2010, 7:05 PM
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I worked at Rockin' & Jammin' (both locations) in Denver for a while. We didn't set lead routes on slabby walls for fear of climbers hitting holds as they fell. The other issue was that if we put our lead test on a wall that a climber could toprope, they would dog the hell out of it, practice all the clips on TR, pass the lead test with flying colors, then immediately deck from the second clip on the super-steep 10+ that always tackled the prow of the dramatic wave you see in all of the pictures.
If 90% of all newly minted leaders would immediately go for that route, we needed the means to ensure that they wouldn't kill themselves in the process. Thus, an overhanging jug haul which clocked in around 5.9 was the lead test.
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troutboy
Dec 2, 2010, 8:10 PM
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Some random thoughts from a climber of 30+ years who travels a lot for work and has climbed in many gyms:
1) Lead route grades are gym specific and vary widely. I've tested on everything from 5.6 (Delaware Rock Gym) to 5.10c (Berkeley Ironworks). I can see arguments for and against both.
2) I lead 5.6 and 5.7 routes every time I go to the gym. At my advancing age, I need easy warm ups before trying the harder (for me stuff). And yes, I lead considerably higher than 5.7, but it gives me a few routes to get things loose and get in a good rhythm.
3) Good routesetters can set good routes of almost any grade on almost any terrain. The main routesetter at my gym sets great routes up to 5.12b on slab that are very much like real routes and 5.6's on pretty overhanging terrain. We have 5.6 climbs on 5-foot roofs at the Gunks; a good routesetter can certainly mimic that on a 5-foot gym roof.
4) At the majority of gyms I've cclimbed, the grades are fairly consistent with "real" grades. Only a couple exceptions. I think that depends on having a routesetter who has reasonable outdoor experience.
TS
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justroberto
Dec 2, 2010, 11:10 PM
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Jooler wrote: Just curious...why would you rather top rope indoors than lead?
(1) situations where it's safer to lead than tr, and
(2) someone just learning how to lead,
I can't imagine when a person would rather lead than tr indoors. Gym climbing is for training; I'd feel like a complete goober if I actually got sense of accomplishment from leading inside.
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j_ung
Dec 2, 2010, 11:20 PM
Post #46 of 116
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lena_chita wrote: guangzhou wrote: I don't see any point in it. Actually, I think people should start leading as soon as possible. Indoor or outdoors. Grades have nothing to do with leading in my opinion. Waiting to long to learn to lead builds a unreal fear of leading instead of an awareness of the risk. This goes for indoors or out. I actually don't see much point in leading indoors... other than a few times done for learning, and other than super-steep long roofs that are not safe to toprope. Not every gym even has these! And in that case, we are back to "first, you should be able to demonstrate that you have a decent chance of climbing these kinds of steep routes"-- and I cannot believe that you can possibly make a route on a continuous severe overhang that would be less than 5.9. If i were a gym owner and I had a gym with this sort of leadable severely overhanging walls, I would also have a similarly-overhanging section in the bouldering cave, and I would require the would-be leaders to demostrate that they can climb a few easy juggy problems on that roofy bouldering wall... I find it a bit ridiculous that we are discussing this as if 5.9 were some crazy grade unatainable by most, and thus this 5.9 requirement for leading in a gym was keeping a majority of climbers from sport leading.
You might be surprised. I climbed for 2 or 3 years before I TR-ed 5.9. I probably climbed for 6 before I led it.
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Jooler
Dec 2, 2010, 11:22 PM
Post #47 of 116
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justroberto wrote: Jooler wrote: Just curious...why would you rather top rope indoors than lead? Geez, aside from: (1) situations where it's safer to lead than tr, and (2) someone just learning how to lead, I can't imagine when a person would rather lead than tr indoors. Gym climbing is for training; I'd feel like a complete goober if I actually got sense of accomplishment from leading inside.
Regardless of leading or TRing, I think both lead to the same amount of "accomplishment" when climbing inside. I guess I just get more ENJOYMENT out of leading over TRing
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j_ung
Dec 2, 2010, 11:23 PM
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justroberto wrote: Jooler wrote: Just curious...why would you rather top rope indoors than lead? Geez, aside from: (1) situations where it's safer to lead than tr, and (2) someone just learning how to lead, I can't imagine when a person would rather lead than tr indoors. Gym climbing is for training; I'd feel like a complete goober if I actually got sense of accomplishment from leading inside.
Call me Mr. Goober. 
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redlude97
Dec 2, 2010, 11:34 PM
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justroberto wrote: Jooler wrote: Just curious...why would you rather top rope indoors than lead? Geez, aside from: (1) situations where it's safer to lead than tr, and (2) someone just learning how to lead, I can't imagine when a person would rather lead than tr indoors. Gym climbing is for training; I'd feel like a complete goober if I actually got sense of accomplishment from leading inside.
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Jooler
Dec 2, 2010, 11:49 PM
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redlude97 wrote: justroberto wrote: Jooler wrote: Just curious...why would you rather top rope indoors than lead? Geez, aside from: (1) situations where it's safer to lead than tr, and (2) someone just learning how to lead, I can't imagine when a person would rather lead than tr indoors. Gym climbing is for training; I'd feel like a complete goober if I actually got sense of accomplishment from leading inside. Is clipping not a part of training? For those of us who can't get outside more than 1-2 days a week, any climbing outdoors is usually reserved for trying to climb at one's peak level, which does not lend itself well to practicing many of the nuances associated with position, stance etc when clipping efficiently. I know the first winter I spent in the gym lead climbing made for a much more successful spring/summer since clipping had become second nature from practicing in the gym. I also take and catch significantly more falls indoors which adds to overall experience. It is hardly about the feeling of accomplishment.
Agreed! Also, leading indoors can also help fine tune belay technique...perhaps with another style of device (reference to another thread )
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