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sandstone
Nov 30, 2010, 8:23 PM
Post #26 of 65
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Last year my partner leading the second pitch, ~20ft above me, dislodged a rock that was about 12 inches diameter, and about 1 1/2 inch thick. I was on a small stance, tied in close to the anchor by necessity. I saw it coming, right for my head. I reflexively reached up with my free hand to try to deflect it. I did change its course, but it still made a hard glancing blow off my helmet, then bounced off my thigh. My head was fine, my hand had a scrape, and my thigh had a nice bruise. I never lost control of the belay. We were both shaken up a bit, but we finished the climb. Without a helmet, there's no doubt I would have been clocked hard enough to lose the belay, and possibly hard enough to not be able to write this.
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chilli
Nov 30, 2010, 8:45 PM
Post #27 of 65
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Thanks for the post & photos majid. Compelling evidence to say the least. Do you have the rest of the incident report? I'm especially interested in the injuries sustained that may have been found on workup and specific characteristics of the fall. At 40m, we're well past the height for multiple fractures, counter/coup, subdural hematoma & death (with or without a helmet). So i gotta wonder what the fall was actually like (if you're aware of it - i know information collection can be difficult in cases like these) and what was actually going on inside that kid's head after he hit the deck. Were you present for EMT assessment or are you aware of final med report? edit: b/c i apparently don't proofread
(This post was edited by chilli on Nov 30, 2010, 8:48 PM)
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milesenoell
Nov 30, 2010, 8:55 PM
Post #28 of 65
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I'm another helmet believer. I would have died in a bike wreck without my helmet, and I'm not talking facetiously in any way. I almost broke my neck as it was, but I have no doubts at all that my helmet saved my life. Something about seeing that shattered helmet just brought the pro/con thing into perspective. Incidentally, in my accident the main point of impact was a point of rock that just barely caught the edge of my helmet, and wouldn't have if my helmet had been tipped back at all. It would have been very easy for me to have died of a traumatic brain injury with my helmet on in that situation. Helmets aren't a guarantee, but I like what they do for my odds.
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majid_sabet
Nov 30, 2010, 10:27 PM
Post #29 of 65
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chilli wrote: Thanks for the post & photos majid. Compelling evidence to say the least. Do you have the rest of the incident report? I'm especially interested in the injuries sustained that may have been found on workup and specific characteristics of the fall. At 40m, we're well past the height for multiple fractures, counter/coup, subdural hematoma & death (with or without a helmet). So i gotta wonder what the fall was actually like (if you're aware of it - i know information collection can be difficult in cases like these) and what was actually going on inside that kid's head after he hit the deck. Were you present for EMT assessment or are you aware of final med report? edit: b/c i apparently don't proofread The report is three pages long which will be published in my accident book but i haven't had a chance to get the medical report afterward. I will defiantly try to update this post once I get the hospital report.
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curt
Dec 1, 2010, 1:00 AM
Post #30 of 65
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Lbrombach wrote: The helmet clearly absorbed much energy and the guys head is better off. The fact that it's still possible to get injured in car crashes doesn't mean seat belts and air bags are a bad thing. That's not my point--I'm talking about the proximate cause of this injury in the first place. I'll expand on your automobile example a bit further. Nobody should agree to ride in a car driven by a falling-down drunk and then expect the seat belts and air bags installed in the car to keep them safe. Curt
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Raiden
Dec 1, 2010, 1:45 AM
Post #31 of 65
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Are there any advantages to belaying with an 8 over, for example, an atc?? Also, Majid, are you sure it was a 40 meter fall? 40 meters is approximately 130 feet...
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k.l.k
Dec 1, 2010, 3:06 AM
Post #33 of 65
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bill413 wrote: Raiden wrote: Are there any advantages to belaying with an 8 over, for example, an atc?? Yeah - the rope flows through it so easily. They may use it because they already have it. Sigh. People that don't understand the forces involved in falling incorrectly assume that because they can hold themselves on an 8 for rappel, that they can catch a fall on the same 8. There are a handful of advantages to using an 8. But unless the belayer was using some weird 8 with which I am unfamiliar, there is nothing in the design of the 8 that makes it difficult to use in arresting a fall. And 2nd what Curt said.
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Raiden
Dec 1, 2010, 3:46 AM
Post #34 of 65
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k.l.k wrote: There are a handful of advantages to using an 8. Could you (or someone) elaborate? I'm not trying to be difficult, just curious. I was always under the impression that eights were primarily for descending and not really ideal for belaying since they were much harder to catch falls with.
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majid_sabet
Dec 1, 2010, 3:47 AM
Post #35 of 65
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Raiden wrote: Are there any advantages to belaying with an 8 over, for example, an atc?? Also, Majid, are you sure it was a 40 meter fall? 40 meters is approximately 130 feet... He took a whole pitch so it was about 40 meter fall however, the base was at 40 degree hill so he slide down instead of direct impact.. Also, belaying with 8 still very common in other countries but belaying with 8 where you run the rope parallel to 8 thru the biner should be done by experienced belayers.
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Raiden
Dec 1, 2010, 3:53 AM
Post #36 of 65
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majid_sabet wrote: He took a whole pitch so it was about 40 meter fall however, the base was at 40 degree hill so he slide down instead of direct impact.. Also, belaying with 8 still very common in other countries but belaying with 8 where you run the rope parallel to 8 thru the biner should be done by experienced belayers. He was on a 20m (65ft) runout? Or did he have a bunch of gear blow or something?
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majid_sabet
Dec 1, 2010, 3:57 AM
Post #37 of 65
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k.l.k wrote: bill413 wrote: Raiden wrote: Are there any advantages to belaying with an 8 over, for example, an atc?? Yeah - the rope flows through it so easily. They may use it because they already have it. Sigh. People that don't understand the forces involved in falling incorrectly assume that because they can hold themselves on an 8 for rappel, that they can catch a fall on the same 8. There are a handful of advantages to using an 8. But unless the belayer was using some weird 8 with which I am unfamiliar, there is nothing in the design of the 8 that makes it difficult to use in arresting a fall. And 2nd what Curt said. 8 is universal and can be used for belay and rapping in three different mode but belaying in parallel should be done by experienced belayers only. parallel belay for fast moving second low angle Regular belay ATC or tube type belay
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majid_sabet
Dec 1, 2010, 4:01 AM
Post #38 of 65
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Raiden wrote: majid_sabet wrote: He took a whole pitch so it was about 40 meter fall however, the base was at 40 degree hill so he slide down instead of direct impact.. Also, belaying with 8 still very common in other countries but belaying with 8 where you run the rope parallel to 8 thru the biner should be done by experienced belayers. He was on a 20m (65ft) runout? Or did he have a bunch of gear blow or something? He was less than 10 meter traverse to left of belay and at the beginning of the second pitch when he fall then he swing to right and hit his head then belay couldn't stop his fall and let go off the rope and fell another 30+meter to base.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 1, 2010, 4:01 AM)
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k.l.k
Dec 1, 2010, 4:04 AM
Post #39 of 65
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Raiden wrote: k.l.k wrote: There are a handful of advantages to using an 8. Could you (or someone) elaborate? I'm not trying to be difficult, just curious. I was always under the impression that eights were primarily for descending and not really ideal for belaying since they were much harder to catch falls with. Harder than what? Harder than a Gri-Gri, certainly, assuming that you are using a rope of the proper diameter and know how to use a Gri Gri. But no harder than a Sticht or a Muenter or even most ATCs. An 8 set up using only the small end is essentially a Sticht plate (or a mini-ATC), which was a popular mechanical device in the 1980s. The greatest disadvantage of the Sticht (and of an 8 used like a Sticht, assuming ropes sized appropriately to the device), was that 8s actually made it easier to arrest statically, rather than dynamically, and even to make it harder to release the rope once the fall was over. If the 8 was used as as a belay device in the threaded position, the same way you'd arrange an 8 for rappel, the main disadvantage was that it was difficult to pay out slack to the leader, much as it is a bit complicated to pay out slack quickly with a Gri Gri. The main reason everyone not on a rescue unit traded their 8s for ATCs, was that 8s tend to twist the rope during rappels, increasing knots, tangles, etc.
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Raiden
Dec 1, 2010, 4:07 AM
Post #40 of 65
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majid_sabet wrote: 8 is universal and can be used for belay and rapping in three different mode but belaying in parallel should be done by experienced belayers only... I'm aware that you can belay with an 8, i was looking for reasons to do so, as opposed to just using an atc or another belay device. I've heard before that it's used in alpine conditions sometimes since a frozen stiff rope can be easier to use with it. But otherwise...?
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Raiden
Dec 1, 2010, 4:10 AM
Post #41 of 65
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k.l.k wrote: Harder than what? Harder than a Gri-Gri, certainly, assuming that you are using a rope of the proper diameter and know how to use a Gri Gri. But no harder than a Sticht or a Muenter or even most ATCs. An 8 set up using only the small end is essentially a Sticht plate (or a mini-ATC), which was a popular mechanical device in the 1980s. The greatest disadvantage of the Sticht (and of an 8 used like a Sticht, assuming ropes sized appropriately to the device), was that 8s actually made it easier to arrest statically, rather than dynamically, and even to make it harder to release the rope once the fall was over. If the 8 was used as as a belay device in the threaded position, the same way you'd arrange an 8 for rappel, the main disadvantage was that it was difficult to pay out slack to the leader, much as it is a bit complicated to pay out slack quickly with a Gri Gri. The main reason everyone not on a rescue unit traded their 8s for ATCs, was that 8s tend to twist the rope during rappels, increasing knots, tangles, etc. Thank you - not sure where I heard that it was harder to arrest falls with an eight when compared with an atc.
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jt512
Dec 1, 2010, 4:12 AM
Post #42 of 65
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Raiden wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 8 is universal and can be used for belay and rapping in three different mode but belaying in parallel should be done by experienced belayers only... I'm aware that you can belay with an 8, i was looking for reasons to do so . . . There aren't any. Jay
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notapplicable
Dec 1, 2010, 4:23 AM
Post #43 of 65
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jt512 wrote: Raiden wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 8 is universal and can be used for belay and rapping in three different mode but belaying in parallel should be done by experienced belayers only... I'm aware that you can belay with an 8, i was looking for reasons to do so . . . There aren't any. Jay Bullshit, those things are the best! As a matter of fact, I've got one that I'd be willing to sell to a worthy user. It is 7 years old but it's in like-new condition and has only been used once. Any takers?
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majid_sabet
Dec 1, 2010, 4:24 AM
Post #44 of 65
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Raiden wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 8 is universal and can be used for belay and rapping in three different mode but belaying in parallel should be done by experienced belayers only... I'm aware that you can belay with an 8, i was looking for reasons to do so, as opposed to just using an atc or another belay device. I've heard before that it's used in alpine conditions sometimes since a frozen stiff rope can be easier to use with it. But otherwise...? Ever since tube type belay devices came to market, belaying with 8 phased out especially in north America but its still very popular in Asia and in some part of Europe. My favorite rap device is 8 for the fact that I could use it in many applications. Also, they are still making 8 so there must be a big market for it.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 1, 2010, 4:25 AM)
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k.l.k
Dec 1, 2010, 4:24 AM
Post #45 of 65
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jt512 wrote: Raiden wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 8 is universal and can be used for belay and rapping in three different mode but belaying in parallel should be done by experienced belayers only... I'm aware that you can belay with an 8, i was looking for reasons to do so . . . There aren't any. Jay That's true for general consumption. 8s are more versatile in rappelling/lowering scenarios, especially involving bad conditions, so I can imagine rescue/military applications where it makes sense to outfit folks with 8s rather than some heavier and costlier combination of ATCs and Gri Gris, Traxions or what have you. An 8 is not something you need to be stocking up on for trips to the roadside crag, unless you're thinking of trying to become a fireman.
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majid_sabet
Dec 1, 2010, 4:27 AM
Post #46 of 65
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k.l.k wrote: jt512 wrote: Raiden wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 8 is universal and can be used for belay and rapping in three different mode but belaying in parallel should be done by experienced belayers only... I'm aware that you can belay with an 8, i was looking for reasons to do so . . . There aren't any. Jay That's true for general consumption. 8s are more versatile in rappelling/lowering scenarios, especially involving bad conditions, so I can imagine rescue/military applications where it makes sense to outfit folks with 8s rather than some heavier and costlier combination of ATCs and Gri Gris, Traxions or what have you. An 8 is not something you need to be stocking up on for trips to the roadside crag, unless you're thinking of trying to become a fireman. that is not true. most pro climbers if they were given a choice to take 8 or tube type for a unknown climbing trip, they will take 8
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Raiden
Dec 1, 2010, 4:34 AM
Post #47 of 65
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majid_sabet wrote: that is not true. most pro climbers if they were given a choice to take 8 or tube type for a unknown climbing trip, they will take 8 You've asked them all have you? He said you don't need it for a "trip to the roadside crag"... which is true. He wasn't talking about an "unknown climbing trip"
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jt512
Dec 1, 2010, 4:47 AM
Post #48 of 65
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majid_sabet wrote: k.l.k wrote: jt512 wrote: Raiden wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 8 is universal and can be used for belay and rapping in three different mode but belaying in parallel should be done by experienced belayers only... I'm aware that you can belay with an 8, i was looking for reasons to do so . . . There aren't any. Jay That's true for general consumption. 8s are more versatile in rappelling/lowering scenarios, especially involving bad conditions, so I can imagine rescue/military applications where it makes sense to outfit folks with 8s rather than some heavier and costlier combination of ATCs and Gri Gris, Traxions or what have you. An 8 is not something you need to be stocking up on for trips to the roadside crag, unless you're thinking of trying to become a fireman. that is not true. most pro climbers if they were given a choice to take 8 or tube type for a unknown climbing trip, they will take 8 No pro climber I've ever seen belay was using a figure-8. How do you explain that? Sampling bias? Jay
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Raiden
Dec 1, 2010, 4:54 AM
Post #49 of 65
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jt512 wrote: No pro climber I've ever seen belay was using a figure-8. How do you explain that? Sampling bias? Jay me and chris sharma are tight, he uses an 8 exclusively
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majid_sabet
Dec 1, 2010, 7:08 AM
Post #50 of 65
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jt512 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: k.l.k wrote: jt512 wrote: Raiden wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 8 is universal and can be used for belay and rapping in three different mode but belaying in parallel should be done by experienced belayers only... I'm aware that you can belay with an 8, i was looking for reasons to do so . . . There aren't any. Jay That's true for general consumption. 8s are more versatile in rappelling/lowering scenarios, especially involving bad conditions, so I can imagine rescue/military applications where it makes sense to outfit folks with 8s rather than some heavier and costlier combination of ATCs and Gri Gris, Traxions or what have you. An 8 is not something you need to be stocking up on for trips to the roadside crag, unless you're thinking of trying to become a fireman. that is not true. most pro climbers if they were given a choice to take 8 or tube type for a unknown climbing trip, they will take 8 No pro climber I've ever seen belay was using a figure-8. How do you explain that? Sampling bias? Jay i never said pros use 8 as belay device. I said, its popular device among pro climbers and they often carry it and use it.
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