So it's winter and I have no climbing gym nearby. I am still getting out on the weekends ice climbing and drytooling, but haven't been climbing through the week.

One of my weakest link in my climbing has always been brute strength. Generally I've done pretty good despite this but especially now as I'm getting into 5.12 I'm finding more routes that just have stopper moves for me and these stopper moves are almost always because I'm not strong enough to pull them. So I decided to use my time after work going to the meathead gym and lifting weights in an attempt to get stronger.

I am doing a mix of power and endurnace (5-6 reps, long rest and 10+ reps, shorter rest) on things like one-arm lat pulldowns and rows, and then strictly higher reps (10+) on things like tricept and rotater cuff exercises. I would like to do some pullups as well, but I tend to max out at one or two and don't like such low reps when I'm already fatiguing my back muscles in the same workout. I'm looking to see where to buy some assistance bands to make this more reasonable, but until then I'm not doing these in my workouts.

So I was just hoping to get some feedback from anyone else that has done weight lifting to try to improve strength so they can climb harder. Suggestions on exercises, etc.

I'm not interested in the 5.10 climber telling me how awesome pullups have been for them and their climbing, or people telling me how amazing Crossfit is for this kind of thing. I'm hoping to hear from people who climb 5.12 and above on how they used specific weight training to help them climb harder, what they did and how it helped. Thanks.

I'm hoping to hear from people who climb 5.12 and above on how they used specific weight training to help them climb harder, what they did and how it helped. Thanks.

I would like to do some pullups as well, but I tend to max out at one or two and don't like such low reps when I'm already fatiguing my back muscles in the same workout. I'm looking to see where to buy some assistance bands to make this more reasonable, but until then I'm not doing these in my workouts.

Well that really narrowed the field of desired input, at least from this audience.

So I was just hoping to get some feedback from anyone else that has done weight lifting to try to improve strength so they can climb harder. Suggestions on exercises, etc.

I'm not interested in the 5.10 climber telling me how awesome pullups have been for them and their climbing, or people telling me how amazing Crossfit is for this kind of thing. I'm hoping to hear from people who climb 5.12 and above on how they used specific weight training to help them climb harder, what they did and how it helped. Thanks.

I climbed my first climb rated 5.12 in 1991 (I climbed things that hard 10-12 years before that but that was before grade inflation and they weren't rated 5.12), I climbed my last (well hopefully not my last but I'm having major rotator cuff surgery next week - so who knows) one last year. In all that time span I never followed any formalized weight training program for very long. I did knock out a lot of oullups - variety of grips and dabbled with Long's "workout from hell" occasionally but I never noticed any particular correlation. I have a extremely high slow twitch/fast twitch ratio so I am never going to be able to get very strong - but could easily hurt myself trying. I'm sure you can point to many routes with a well defined power crux, even more common in bouldering, but I think at the 5.12 level you are still going to find the majority of routes will succumb to technique and endurance.

If your genetic makeup allows you to gain strength easily (fast twitch) then go for it - follow any of the pyramid/periodization schemes. Focus on the muscles that are not your primamry climbing ones as they need it more.

I am curious-- how do you know this (the bolded part)? Is this an inference from the kind of response you see to training, or did you actually have some kind of testing done?

Beccs, I've seen you climb, and rarely have you (or most other people) failed because of weak triceps or lats (though, I dunno, all that mixed tooling you guys do might be another story).

Work forearms and lockoff strength for maximum performance on the rock. For forearms and finger strength, try fnger rolls. Get a standard bench press bar, add enough weights so that it weighs the same as you. Hold it at about waist level, palms outward, then do reps of letting the bar roll down to your finger tips, and curl it back up again to a closed fist. It's the best forearm workout you can do, apart from hangboarding.

The answer isn't "brute strength." When I'm in top shape I can probably do about 10 pull-ups, so I'm not strong by any means. Nonetheless, having climbed up to low 5.13, I cannot recall ever having encountered a move that I wasn't "strong" enough to do. I've been stopped by lack of forearm endurance, lack of power-endurance, poor body tension, poor timing, misuse of balance, poor movement initiation, poor pacing, etc. The solution to such problems is not weightlifting; it's sport-specific training. And guess which book you should be turning to for that? No climbing gym in the off-season? Then training on a wall at home will be infinitely more beneficial to your climbing than anything you can do in a weight gym.

That doesn't answer the question you asked, but I strongly suspect that you're asking the wrong question.

Jay

Do you even bother to read a person's entire post before giving your generic replies?

Obviously, if I had a choice I would be bouldering on a home wall instead of going to the meathead gym if it were possible to have one in my current situation, but sometimes you just have to work with what you've got.

I climbed my first climb rated 5.12 in 1991 (I climbed things that hard 10-12 years before that but that was before grade inflation and they weren't rated 5.12), I climbed my last (well hopefully not my last but I'm having major rotator cuff surgery next week - so who knows) one last year. In all that time span I never followed any formalized weight training program for very long. I did knock out a lot of oullups - variety of grips and dabbled with Long's "workout from hell" occasionally but I never noticed any particular correlation. I have a extremely high slow twitch/fast twitch ratio so I am never going to be able to get very strong - but could easily hurt myself trying. I'm sure you can point to many routes with a well defined power crux, even more common in bouldering, but I think at the 5.12 level you are still going to find the majority of routes will succumb to technique and endurance.

If your genetic makeup allows you to gain strength easily (fast twitch) then go for it - follow any of the pyramid/periodization schemes. Focus on the muscles that are not your primamry climbing ones as they need it more.

Well, this has been a long account of techniques now pretty well discredited, and I am sure that there is little point in trying all this stuff if you have access to anything of a modern nature. I am equally sure that these exercises are going to be far more effective for climbing than traditional weight-room work, even when such work is done with pulleys to mimic body-weight exercises. If anyone wants to PM me for even more esoteric and out-of-date information about the fine points of latex tube-ology, keeping in mind its questionable utility for the modern climber, feel free...

Climbers really had to be strong back in the day.

Elite climbers today are far stonger. Have a look at http://vimeo.com/36429174 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54VtaVbJdLo for example.

I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.

Great post, thanks for spending the time on that, rgold.

I think one of the things I need to make a priority to get is some sort of tubbing for pullup and other exercise assistance. I have gone through cycles of trying to increase the number of pullups I can do, but the rep of 1 or 2 has always put too much stress on my body and I usually stop before I realy make any progress because me elbos start feeling tweaky.

These are the sorts of bands that I'm thinking of, but I'm having problems finding places that carry them or online places based in Canada. I've used them in the past and they're pretty handy:

http://rubberbanditz.com/pull-up-bands/

I have never thought of using them to help toward levers though, which is a great idea.

It's pretty clear boadman hasn't read the whole thread. I never promoted weight lifting, for example, and suggesting weighted pullups to someone who is struggling to do two without weight makes absolutely no sense.

More importantly, it makes absolutely no sense to get caught up in false dichotomies. G-girl said she doesn't have a hangboard, but if she could get one, then doing both types of exercises would be better for her than doing only finger training or only upper-body training.

And there is another consideration: the hangboard by itself is probably not a good idea, because doing a lot of hanging when your pulling strength is relatively low is going to be more than usually dangerous for your shoulders.

It's pretty easy to avoid shoulder injuries by starting hanging by stepping off of a step ladder or a chair into a locked off position. From my experience, the big muscle strength comes super quick in the spring, and doesn't require any specific training to maintain. If she's like me and has a limited amount of time to train, hangboarding will be much more effective than any big muscle pulling work. Weightlifting might actually hurt her climbing if she puts on weight as a result of that type of training. I have several female friends that climb 13- that can't do more than 2 or 3 pull-ups.

I find it really hard in this male dominated sport to get good training advice for strength gains. Most guys take what apply to themselves and then give it back to me.

Girls don't just gain muscle mass the way guys do. I'm never going to gain so much weight from muscle gain in the period of three months that it will effect my climbing when I head outside again, nor would most girls. This isn't even on the radar.

At the level I climb I don't think most guys have to worry about their strength holding them back. Technique, endurance, finger strength, yes, but not lock-off and core. I then get dismissive replies about things I percive as a weakness for myself because they never found it to be a weakness for themselves. What's up with that?

I find it really hard in this male dominated sport to get good training advice for strength gains. Most guys take what apply to themselves and then give it back to me.

Girls don't just gain muscle mass the way guys do. I'm never going to gain so much weight from muscle gain in the period of three months that it will effect my climbing when I head outside again, nor would most girls. This isn't even on the radar.

At the level I climb I don't think most guys have to worry about their strength holding them back. Technique, endurance, finger strength, yes, but not lock-off and core. I then get dismissive replies about things I percive as a weakness for myself because they never found it to be a weakness for themselves. What's up with that?

I'm not trying to be dismissive. I do have an (unwarranted, I admit) feeling that your arms and shoulders aren't really holding you back as much as you think they are. I have several friends, both male and female, who are very strong climbers that aren't very burly in terms of pulling, but manage to finagle there way through pulling moves with technique.

I do very well with finagling too, but you don't think it would help your friends if they could do a route with less moves in terms of less foot switches, less intermediates...basically less fucking around on holds and in positions that you can skip through?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive, but I'm 5'8" tall and I don't think I make full use of my height on many routes because of things like lock-off and core strength. I know that self analyisis can be faulty, but I do try to look at my climbing with a critical and anylitical eye as best I can.

I do very well with finagling too, but you don't think it would help your friends if they could do a route with less moves in terms of less foot switches, less intermediates...basically less fucking around on holds and in positions that you can skip through?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive, but I'm 5'8" tall and I don't think I make full use of my height on many routes because of things like lock-off and core strength. I know that self analyisis can be faulty, but I do try to look at my climbing with a critical and anylitical eye as best I can.

I do very well with finagling too, but you don't think it would help your friends if they could do a route with less moves in terms of less foot switches, less intermediates...basically less fucking around on holds and in positions that you can skip through?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive, but I'm 5'8" tall and I don't think I make full use of my height on many routes because of things like lock-off and core strength. I know that self analyisis can be faulty, but I do try to look at my climbing with a critical and anylitical eye as best I can.

So it's winter and I have no climbing gym nearby. I am still getting out on the weekends ice climbing and drytooling, but haven't been climbing through the week.

One of my weakest link in my climbing has always been brute strength. Generally I've done pretty good despite this but especially now as I'm getting into 5.12 I'm finding more routes that just have stopper moves for me and these stopper moves are almost always because I'm not strong enough to pull them. So I decided to use my time after work going to the meathead gym and lifting weights in an attempt to get stronger.

I am doing a mix of power and endurnace (5-6 reps, long rest and 10+ reps, shorter rest) on things like one-arm lat pulldowns and rows, and then strictly higher reps (10+) on things like tricept and rotater cuff exercises. I would like to do some pullups as well, but I tend to max out at one or two and don't like such low reps when I'm already fatiguing my back muscles in the same workout. I'm looking to see where to buy some assistance bands to make this more reasonable, but until then I'm not doing these in my workouts.

So I was just hoping to get some feedback from anyone else that has done weight lifting to try to improve strength so they can climb harder. Suggestions on exercises, etc.

I'm not interested in the 5.10 climber telling me how awesome pullups have been for them and their climbing, or people telling me how amazing Crossfit is for this kind of thing. I'm hoping to hear from people who climb 5.12 and above on how they used specific weight training to help them climb harder, what they did and how it helped. Thanks.

I guess it's cold math-- the most efficient move (or series of moves) in terms of energy used is the best, period. Sometimes making 3 easy moves is much better than a single hard move, sometimes you burn more energy hanging and the best option is to power through quickly. Climb lazy!

G-Girl, there are perhaps a few training experts here who fully understand gender differences. Most of us have just done some (or a lot of) training and are saying what worked for us, just as you say. I don't think it is a matter of anyone being dismissive, although a few are not paying attention.

Here's what I think. Read the advice. Think about it. Look for ideas that makes sense to you and seem like they might work. Then modify them to apply to your situation. Because that's all you can expect, and indeed, it is all you need.

I shouldn't have expected anything more than what I've been getting....goodness knows I've spent enough time on this site to know better.

Yeah, it's just frustration and the term "dismissive" was too harsh.

While I still think weight training can help if done right, it seems that very few people here have experimented with it enough to tell me if it has helped their climbing or not. I shouldn't have expected anything more than what I've been getting....goodness knows I've spent enough time on this site to know better.

Hopefully this will be helpful to you. I am a dude, so take it with a grain of salt.

I take 4 months off every year to work at a Scout camp. Really enjoy the opportunity to do something great for the community. When I'm there, I have two options. I can train, or I can get worse. My training facility is a hangboard and a place to do some core work.

So I work up a hangboard routine every summer. Hangboards are not expensive, and often times you can find one used for even cheaper. I do some core work on the board, but mainly focus on raw finger strength.

When I get to the core part of my workout, I focus on my obliques and back. Why? When you're making hard snatches, cross throughs, or lock offs your obliques and back tend to be the most engaged.

Building lock off strength is kind of old school. Learning to deadpoint effectively can supersede all but the weirdest lock off moves. Not to say it isn't an effective strategy, but deadpointing lets you use your legs and core really efficiently. My wife (5'6") can nail hard deadpoints even better than I. She is little, but has really strong fingers. I can wrap my thumb and first finger around her entire bicep, so it isn't pure, raw strength at play either. (SPRAY WARNING: she also sent her first v9 yesterday, a powerful, dynamic problem)

rgold talked about the hard 'snatches' in modern sport climbing and bouldering. Honestly, a strong back and obliques are necessary, but you also need the strength in your hand not to get ripped off the holds when your feet swing out. A little bit of bicep strength can help you initiate some of the harder moves, but I don't tend to find that in most 5.12's or v4-5 climbs.

Finally, the hardest part about taking time off is that you don't trust your feet when you get back. It takes me a bit of time to tune up, but the finger strength gains mean I start at about the same level as I left. I quickly surpass my old high point, then keep on motoring.

Building lock off strength is kind of old school. Learning to deadpoint effectively can supersede all but the weirdest lock off moves.

True enough in the sport and bouldering context. Locking off, to the extent that it requires more from your upper body and fingers, is nowadays be relegated to the category of inefficient technique.

On the other hand, the idea behind maximal technique and minimal strength means that the climber is more marginal. If a foot skids, the body is imperfectly oriented, or the timing is just a tad off, then the technique fails and the climber falls. A little bit of that good old ``old school'' brute strength provides a margin of error for those moments when you ain't perfect. What's so terrible about that?

When it comes to the marginality of perfectly timed technique vs. a bit more upper-body strength, trad climbing is a totally different situation. You can't deadpoint gear in. And on a run-out lead, deadpointing to an unknown hold might be pretty risky. Anyone who aspires to this type of climbing will be a lot better off if deadpointing is not their only option.

So you feel you were able to get some strength gains from your time off that helped your climbing? What kind of exercises were you doing for your back? A lot of lower back stuff or more shoulders/lats?

And I will pry the hang board away from the husband when I go back home this weekend, it will be an epic battle not to be missed!

So you feel you were able to get some strength gains from your time off that helped your climbing? What kind of exercises were you doing for your back? A lot of lower back stuff or more shoulders/lats?

And I will pry the hang board away from the husband when I go back home this weekend, it will be an epic battle not to be missed!

Everyone says weight training is counter-productive to climbing but I climbed harder at 185 (13b) than I do now at 170 (12d).

Lifting doesnt make you big, eating does.

Lifting weights increases muscle mass, provided your nutrition is sufficient. If it isn't, you shouldn't be lifting weights, as you'll at best be wasting your time.

Jay

Lifting weights increases muscle mass, provided your nutrition is sufficient. If it isn't, you shouldn't be lifting weights, as you'll at best be wasting your time.

Jay

To build better core for climbing, should I start doing lower reps of leg lifts, but with weight added?

For antagonist muscles, should I move from trying to do 100 pushups, and towards fewer reps of bench presses?

On the occasion that I do lockoffs or offset pullups, should I add weight?

Ok, this might be enough of a thread drift to prompt another thread, but I'm just going to ask.

What you're saying, Jay, is essentially a variation of the old wisdom that high reps & low weight are better for "toning" your muscles, whereas high weights and low reps are better for building bulk, right? That's the way I've understood it since high school PE.

Going of of this, I've long stayed away from doing weighted exercises. Go for more pullup reps, more pushups, more leg lifts, etc., in order to not add too much bulk.

However, once I started hangboarding, I realized the essentiality of adding weight for most efficient hypertrophy; up to 35 lbs or so. Now, I know that forearm training is kind of its own thing; I'm not really at risk of building too much bulk in my forearms. But, I'm still wondering, should I apply more weight to other exercises that, while not climbing specific, are intended to help my climbing?

To build better core for climbing, should I start doing lower reps of leg lifts, but with weight added? For antagonist muscles, should I move from trying to do 100 pushups, and towards fewer reps of bench presses? On the occasion that I do lockoffs or offset pullups, should I add weight?

Ok, this might be enough of a thread drift to prompt another thread, but I'm just going to ask.

What you're saying, Jay, is essentially a variation of the old wisdom that high reps & low weight are better for "toning" your muscles, whereas high weights and low reps are better for building bulk, right? That's the way I've understood it since high school PE.

Going of of this, I've long stayed away from doing weighted exercises. Go for more pullup reps, more pushups, more leg lifts, etc., in order to not add too much bulk.

However, once I started hangboarding, I realized the essentiality of adding weight for most efficient hypertrophy; up to 35 lbs or so. Now, I know that forearm training is kind of its own thing; I'm not really at risk of building too much bulk in my forearms. But, I'm still wondering, should I apply more weight to other exercises that, while not climbing specific, are intended to help my climbing?

To build better core for climbing, should I start doing lower reps of leg lifts, but with weight added? For antagonist muscles, should I move from trying to do 100 pushups, and towards fewer reps of bench presses? On the occasion that I do lockoffs or offset pullups, should I add weight?

I've been weighing the pros and cons of this for the last few months, and am wondering what others' experience/thoughts would be.

From my research on the interwebs and asking trainer who owns the gym I've been going to, this is the general breakdown of max reps with rest time:

3-6 reps w/ 2min+ rest = strength training
~8 reps w/ 1min rest = hypertrophy
10+ reps w/ 30-45 sec rest = endurance

I've seen slightly different numbers from different sources, but they're all in the same ball park. So from all this I gather we as climbers should keep the reps either low with long rests or high with short rests, but you want to stay out of that middle range.

hey Rich... can women do front levers? not trying to be a dick, just wondering 'cause I googled it on a lark and couldn't find any pictures of women doing them. tried Lynn Hill specifically and got nothing.

I don't see why not, though google image search definitely doesn't show any women actually doing one (I saw a bunch of pictures of women "working towards" one.)

I've gotten pretty close when I tried to work on it half-ass-regularly for about a month.

I don't see why not, though google image search definitely doesn't show any women actually doing one (I saw a bunch of pictures of women "working towards" one.)

I've gotten pretty close when I tried to work on it half-ass-regularly for about a month.

In theory, I don't see why not. But remember, most women have 1 - a center of gravity lower on their bodies, and 2 - less upper body strength, and less ability to gain it quickly.

I think these two factors might add up to make it much more difficult for most women to get there, and near impossible for some.

GO

Yes, I thought about lower center of gravity. But if a 6ft+ guy can do it, surely even with lower center of gravity a 5ft tall woman has less force being leveraged on her upper body in the lever position than a 6ft+ tall guy does?

some of the guys at my gym have been working towards it recently, doing this ridik leg-lift/curlupintoaballandsuckyourowndick things, where they're hanging from the hangboard, and bring the knees up in the chest and then start curling like you're going to flip through, but just go as high as you can instead. the strong kids are doing sets of them. I tried it, and it does kick your ass. Mostly I've just been doing hanging leg lifts and pullups and some hangboard. I can do 3 sets of (8 hanging leg lifts+ 5 pullups) now, with the leg lifts getting past horizontal each time. I do think it helps/ correlates to being about to keep my feet up and on on the steeps.

hey Rich... can women do front levers? not trying to be a dick, just wondering 'cause I googled it on a lark and couldn't find any pictures of women doing them. tried Lynn Hill specifically and got nothing.

some of the guys at my gym have been working towards it recently, doing this ridik leg-lift/curlupintoaballandsuckyourowndick things, where they're hanging from the hangboard, and bring the knees up in the chest and then start curling like you're going to flip through, but just go as high as you can instead.

I've seen Lynne do multiple repetitions of pulling into front-lever position and dropping back to a vertical hang. I had the impression she couldn't (and wasn't interested in) holding the level position.

Although there are mass distribution differences between genders that might give some men an advantage in front levers over some women, I seriously doubt this is of any consequence. My take is that women are, in principle, stronger at strength-to-weight tasks then men (don't forget Lillian Leitzel's 26 one-arm pullups) and there is no reason other than, perhaps, a substantial lack of interest that would stop women from performing levers.

The same goes for other gymnastic feats of strength. Why do you suppose the women have different events than men in gymnastics? At least one reason is so that the genders won't be directly comparable, which might be distressing for male egos. Make the rings a women's event, give 'em a few years to get up to speed, and see what happens then.

I'm not interested in the 5.10 climber telling me how awesome pullups have been for them and their climbing, or people telling me how amazing Crossfit is for this kind of thing. I'm hoping to hear from people who climb 5.12 and above on how they used specific weight training to help them climb harder, what they did and how it helped. Thanks.