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philbox
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Mar 12, 2003, 6:25 AM
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Not so much a gear failure as placement error. Many of you may have seen the thread over on Injuries and accidents forum about the tragic non helmet climbing accident http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=27497 A pic is also available for viewing of the green Alien which was the second piece that pulled http://www.rockclimbing.com/...n=Show&PhotoID=11828 A larger scale pic of the green Alien that was the second piece that pulled is also available for viewing http://www.pbase.com/...t_frog_buttress_8303 This last link will take you into a gallery that will indicate how high up the climber was when she rested on the black Alien which subsequently pulled. The black Alien is also displayed on the gallery.
Please feel free to post your comments and opinions here on this forum rather than in Injuries and accidents, we`ll keep that forum for well wishing and sentiment.
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easysteve
Mar 12, 2003, 6:31 AM
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How is she doing anyway? I never bothered to look at any other topics.
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philbox
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Mar 12, 2003, 6:34 AM
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Mate still critical but fortunately stable. Under heavy sedation and in a coma which they will bring her out of in a few days. It is all a waiting game now. Thank you everybody for your concern, it is indeed heartening for the family at this difficult time.
...Phil...
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ricardol
Mar 12, 2003, 7:13 AM
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i have no skills to judge what may have happened by just looking at a picture ..
the lobes look offset -- is that an offset alien? -- or is that the damage that occurred when it pulled?
-- ricardo
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apollodorus
Mar 12, 2003, 7:22 AM
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Do you know if that Green Alien was placed in a horizontal crack? From the photos, it looks like the stem rotated with respect to the cams. The trigger cables slipped until they bottomed out on the crimps. Further rotation of the stem would have caused the outer cams to be retracted.
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twrock
Mar 12, 2003, 8:14 AM
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(Having been involved in a similar rescue of a climbing accident victim, the original accident report and this thread do bring back some scary memories. My heart goes out to all who are feeling the fear and pain of this tragedy.)
As apollodorus has suggested, the condition of the cam might indicate a horizontal placement. This would be very helpful to know. It's hard to know if this incident is the cause of all the scratches, but if so, the side we are looking at here appears to have been down if the placement was horizontal. It would also be helpful to see the other side of the cam for signs of damage. I've noticed in some of my horizontal placements that if I'm not careful the "upper" cams contact the rock first and allow the lower cams to expand further, causing an uneven placement.
I can only speculate that the cam was a little too small for the placement or that it walked to a wider spot. When the cam was weighted, the two widest cams inverted allowing the cam to slide out. This may have been exacerbated by the steel "head" of the cam levering over the edge, but I can't see any scrape marks on the steel like are visible on the copper sleeve and cable plate. In any case, it is frightening to think about.
(edit: Oops, just noticed Phil's post in the original thread. Seems all this has been suggested already. But I would still be interested as to whether or not it was a horizontal placement and how that may or may not have contributed to its failure.)
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serra_da_leba
Mar 12, 2003, 5:02 PM
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I am fairly new to trad climbing. Nevertheless, from reading the accident report I couldn't help thinking that 2 placements in 20 meters (60 or so feet) of climbing sounds pretty runout. Is this route that thin for placement or could it have taken more protection up to the point that the piece the climber rested on dislodged?
I know this kind of question can seem as targeting the climber's judgement and it's absolutely not fair to her. I apologize. It's just question that has been nagging me seen I read the report.
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ricardol
Mar 12, 2003, 5:46 PM
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i believe the report said that there was 3 placements, the 3rd one held, but was too low to arrest her fall... (and the pictures prove that since the rope was still up on the cliff) ..
... still 3 placements in 60' is a bit runout -- then again it depends on how comfortable you are at that level .. i know that i've ran out placements on 5.6 ground up to 15' .. (of course i was on the 3rd pitch of a route -- but still a 30' fall possible) ...
-- ricardo
In reply to: I am fairly new to trad climbing. Nevertheless, from reading the accident report I couldn't help thinking that 2 placements in 20 meters (60 or so feet) of climbing sounds pretty runout. Is this route that thin for placement or could it have taken more protection up to the point that the piece the climber rested on dislodged? I know this kind of question can seem as targeting the climber's judgement and it's absolutely not fair to her. I apologize. It's just question that has been nagging me seen I read the report. |
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onemistakebigpancake
Mar 12, 2003, 6:03 PM
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now that you have a detailed picture of the cam, why not contact CCH and ask them directly for an "expert opinion"? They may give you an answer you disagree with, but it could be a start of a informative discussion.
just my two pennies worth.
My best wishes and thoughts to Miss B. and her family.
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philbox
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Mar 12, 2003, 8:39 PM
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In all there were at least 6 placements to reach where she rested on her gear, this includes the 2 that pulled. I believe that both the pieces that pulled were in vertical placements. The nature of pretty much all the cracks at Frog is vertical columnar volcanic rhyolite. The columns are chrystalline i/e they are hexagonal vertical columns. Often the cracks can flare either outwards or towards the back. They can also be dead straight and not flare.
We believe that the green Alien was placed in a vertical flaring towards the back placement. No quickdraw appears to have been placed on the Alien thus increasing the possibility of the cam walking in as rope jiggles the stem of the cam. These cracks are usually fairly smooth sided so that means that natural weathering that could create shallow pockets in the sides of the crack has invariably not occured. When placing cams I am looking for these features to place my cams in to minimise walk. Even better I would search out a bottoming crack or a chockstone to seat the cam up against.
As we learn more about this climber we are finding out that perhaps she may not have had enough gear to protect this climb as well as it could have been protected and a degree of inexperience could well have contributed to the accident. That coupled with the lack of a helmet and lots of other tiny contributing factors lead to her plummet.
This climb is relatively easy and is climbed via a series of cracks that lead over some ledges and then one hits the deep v groove slot that is the crux of the climb. There is ample opportunity for protecting both passively and actively but the easy nature of the climb leads one to minimise pro placements.
Please feel free to continue the suppositions and postulations as this is a great teaching tool for those out there who are just getting into trad leading.
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serra_da_leba
Mar 12, 2003, 9:28 PM
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philbox
Thanks for added detail.
This approach is indeed a great teaching tool.
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wlderdude
Mar 12, 2003, 11:50 PM
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From what I can see, it does look as though the cam lobes inverted. Notice that the ends of the outer cam lobes have slight rounded mushrooms on them, different from the scrapes on the trigger assembly. Cam stops might have made a difference, but who's to say.
My best guess is that the cam was placed fairly deep into the rack, so it was not obvious that the unit was under camed. When she put ther weight on the unit, the unit likely shifted, and the unit worked its way into a completely undercamed position until just the corners of the bottom lobes were engaged into the rock, then the lobes inverted. Since it was a lie back, there was probabaly a force pushing sideways on the cam, which means it was drug out of the crack sideways as the cam lobes disengaged from the rock, and thus the sides are scraped up.
If you swing at all on a cam, especially when weighted, it will try to move into postions where it can expand. A quick draw would have done little to prevented this. I had this happen to me once, but it was on a Metolius cam with milled cam stops, so the lobes did not invert. I decided not to rest on cams after that.
Thank you for sharing this information with us. These kinds of stories can improve safety for everyone if we can learn from them.
I hope she recovers well.
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graniteboy
Mar 13, 2003, 6:09 AM
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I had a friend who died a few years back on an easy climb called "olive Oil" down in red rocks. ... It was a weird situation; she was ON the belay ledge, and had placed a piece or 2 for the anchor. then she fell. about 40+ feet, and died later. Nobody knows what exactly happenned...but it seems likely she made a simple screw up...and it cost her her life. I would suspect that the Miss B scenario involved protection which was placed a little less than adequately, then she hung on that pro....
Not to diss Miss B, but that's the usual thing. Human error. We all make errors, once in awhile.
Good luck to Miss B.
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jt512
Mar 13, 2003, 6:52 AM
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Did she fall on the black Alien or just weight it. If it pulled while statically weighted, it was likely a bad placement.
-Jay
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rocmonkey
Mar 13, 2003, 7:02 AM
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Goes to show that placement can be more important than the actual brand of gear you buy. :idea:
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climbs2much
Mar 13, 2003, 7:39 AM
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I have a question that I feel is relavent. It goes to answer why she fell in the first place. I am still inexperienced with my placements so let some one with more experience answer this.
The black alien was what she placed and then rested on. The range of this cam is .33-.54 inchs and is the smallest cam made by CCH. That only gives you .21 inches or 5.33 mm of range over which the cam is intended to operate. If you look at one of these cams in a crack it is very difficult to see if the cam is with in this range of operation. These cams can be placed with more trust in granite or other types of rock with parrallel sided cracks. In volcanic rock, which tends to lack parrallel sided even cracks, it would be hard to see if it was properly set. When I have looked in to buying some aliens I was told that the black alien was not well suited to free climbing because of this reason. (I live in a primarily volcanic rock area.) Could the initial fall have come from weighting a barely camed black alien, which promptly inverted? The moral of which would be dont trust very small cams in certain types of rock.
Let the people who clip less bolts than me say what they think.
Jason
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ricardol
Mar 13, 2003, 8:34 AM
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small gear is hard for beggining leaders to use -- i definately know this since i am a beginning leader and every time i make a placement that is smaller than a .5 camalot, it makes me think ...
.. i detest making placements in the .2 to .1 range .. and would not want to weigh those placements ... (though i've made the placemtns and climbed above then inte past!) .. thoroughly thinking to myself "The Leader MUST not fall, The Leader MUST not fall!" ..
.. phil : is there someone working on investigating the cause of this accident? --
-- ricardo
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philbox
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Mar 13, 2003, 8:54 PM
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From what little evidence we have from the eye witness it seems that she did fall a short distance onto the Black Alien. As she was in a tight v groove slot she was a little out of sight. She would have taken a kinda spoogey slow fall at this point as she slimed her way down the v groove slot so I don`t think the Black Alien was totally shock loaded.
It`s pretty much devolved to me to investigate the causes of this accident, there is no official investigation. Those most closely involved as first responders to the scene have been following up as much as we can and staying in contact with the family.
I believe that climbs2much hit the nail on the head. The cam was simply too small for the placement.
I climb with a partner who climbs way harder than me and I have given him belays on really thin cracks on this same cliff where the black Alien is key to safely getting to the top. He has taken numerous falls onto the black Alien. The rock at this cliff is sound, the gear is good so the only other option is that the placement was bad on both of these cams that blew.
...Phil...
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elvislegs
Mar 13, 2003, 9:09 PM
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In which case the lesson would be to watch those with more experience, clean for them, practice on the ground and on TR a TON before leading on gear. Best wishes to miss B and family. -Sean
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melekzek
Mar 13, 2003, 9:11 PM
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This is one of the scariest things with the small size cams for me, I cannot tell whether they are really good, or I need go to the smaller/larger size or just place again to get a better fit.
Similar thing happens with the asimetric friends, once I place one of them, it does not stick, I replace again, again, again, it drives me crazy, larger one doesnt fit, smaller one is err.... small, this is the one but does not stick, and finally it sticks.... Weird...
I feel confident with the nuts, or hexes, but small cams scare me, because I cannot tell about solidity of the placement (yet)....
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philbox
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Mar 13, 2003, 9:34 PM
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Oh yeah one thing I have learnt about small cams is that they must be set. Give them a really strong and sharp tug down to set them in place, whack a long quickdraw on it and leave it alone. On the Black I try to almost overcam it. I have heard of axle distortion in a really big fall on the black which can result in an otherwise good placement blowing.
The lesson that is coming out loud and clear is that specialist gear such as small cams require a degree of experience to not blow it. Now of course we have zero cams which I wouldn`t recommend to anyone but the very expert climber or aid climber.
Of course any gear can be placed badly so expert tuition in a safe environment is key to gaining experience in placeing gear well.
...Phil...
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melekzek
Mar 13, 2003, 9:41 PM
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/quote I have heard of axle distortion in a really big fall on the black which can result in an otherwise good placement blowing /unqoute
I guess that is what happened to the cam in question, it doesnt seem to have inverted but rather distorted to me (?)
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number7
Mar 13, 2003, 9:43 PM
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What I am wondering is why there was little passive protection if the climb was realatively easy? Cams were designed for speed and we all know there is nothing like a good bomber placement with passive pro.
I am a pretty new leader myself, so I have little room for suggestion except that the ledges on the climb gave ample opportunity to build a nice, bomber, redundant placement of pro. I try doubling up at every opportunity as long as I don't jepardize my peices for the climb. As belayers, we might suggest this to our leaders as well.
All that aside, I want to wish only the very best for the injured climber and her family and friends. Also, thank you for the thourough updates. It benefits us all. Thank you RC.com
One more thing:
A) Wear your brain bucket.
B) Protect early and often.
C) Check, and then double check.
D) Have fun and be safe.
PEACE! M
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dsafanda
Mar 13, 2003, 10:03 PM
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In reply to: What I am wondering is why there was little passive protection if the climb was realatively easy? Cams were designed for speed...
Who told you "cams were designed for speed"?
I'm under the impression that Ray Jardine developed Friends as a way to protect the parallel sided cracks of Yosemite that can sometimes be tricky to protect with only passive pro. To this day most crack climbers I know routinely trust their lives to camming devices as well as passive pro. There are plenty of placements that are in fact much better suited to a cam than a nut. It has nothing to do with whether the climb is easy or difficult or whether you're moving slow or fast. It depends entirely on the individual placement.
I think it's a bit short sighted to suggest that as a general rule of thumb passive pro should be used instead of active pro. That notion will surely get you in just as much trouble as a dependency on cams will.
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philbox
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Mar 13, 2003, 10:22 PM
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This particular climb has many passive pro opportunities as well as great cam placement opportunities. The fact is that the climber went up with insufficient cams but did have a reasonable selection of nuts. We are all wondering why she didn`t take the passive option in the places that mattered.
Of course any speculation on our part now does little to bring her back to perfect health but this discussion is aimed at getting leaders particularly new leaders to think about their pro placements and what could happen in the event of a fall. What is the worst that could happen is constantly in the back of my mind and if I come up with a reassuring answer I carry on with the climb and I climb more confidently in the knowledge that my gear will hold.
If I cannot answer the niggling suspicions in the back of my mind as to my pro placements I will back them up with more and then reassured I will them carry on.
The trick here though is to build up a solid knowledge base of pro placement so that you know that you know that your gear is good and not just guessing.
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mikedano
Mar 13, 2003, 10:32 PM
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I am concerned about the cam stops issue.
As I understand it, aliens are one of the only brands that don't include cam stops. It's hard to tell from looking at the picture, but do you or anyone else think that a similar cam with cam stops would have helped?
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ricardol
Mar 13, 2003, 10:49 PM
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phil:
since you said that its you thats doing the investigation into this accident -- have you been up the climb to the location where the black cam ripped (and the blue cam?) --
.. perhaps you can post pictures on what scars might have been left on the rock from the ripped placements .. that would give some hints as to what the cams did under load.
to address other posts: .. asking questions like why there wasn't more pro placed does little to solve why her gear ripped. -- obviously if she'd set more pro, she would have had a bigger chance on surviving her fall.
-- ricardo
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caughtinside
Mar 13, 2003, 10:55 PM
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Its hard to say if stops would have helped, without seeing the placement. The thing is, those tiny cams are difficult to place because of the tiny expansion range. My guess is that the placement was poor enough so that they wouldn't have helped.
I'm all for stops, but I think people have a tendency to overvalue them. If you make a good placement, the cam won't walk, and the cams won't be able to invert.
I think I have a little idea of what happened. Miss B likes gear. I'm just guessing because I love shiny gear, and if I felt I was cruising I would probably succumb to the temptation to place a cool, tiny, advanced 50 dollar cam rather than a dull, scratched, passive nut.
And that's ok. When you're cruising is the best time to experiment with placement of new gear. Accidents happen though, so I'm going to continue to inspect my placements and wear a helmet.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
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dogen
Mar 13, 2003, 10:58 PM
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cam stops in single axle cams only work when two opposing lobes are completely uncammed. in this situation one set of lobes was cammed and the other was uncammed, therefore the cam stops were not engaged. camalots with their double axle design (sizes .3 and up) are the only cams that cannot become inverted like the piece in question.
i've seen other small single axle cams become inverted like this. its usually the result of the piece walking into a wider section of the crack, or being placed incorrectly in the first place.
here's wishing the leader a speedy recovery.
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caughtinside
Mar 13, 2003, 11:02 PM
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Dogen,
The double axel doesn't make a difference as long as the stops are full strength. DMM cams will not invert.
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drector
Mar 13, 2003, 11:13 PM
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In reply to: Dogen, The double axel doesn't make a difference as long as the stops are full strength. DMM cams will not invert.
The cam stops on camalots stop a single cam no matter the position of the other 3 cams. On other camming devices, the two opposing cams stop against each other so it is possible for one to invert if the other has not opened up all of the way.
I only looked at the picture of the cam a few days ago but I think that it was the case that only one side inverted.
Cam stops allow a cam to be placed passively but I don't think they will make a bad cam placement usable in any way (bad placement or walking into a bad position). If any one lobe does not grab then things get very iffy very quickly. If the lobes on one side open all the way, it's dumb luck if it holds a hamster.
Dave
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dogen
Mar 13, 2003, 11:25 PM
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thanks for the clearification Dave, that's exaclty what i was trying to say.
i think its also important to note that axles on camalots are the cam stops. any given lobe rotates on one axle, and is stopped (should the need arise) by the other.
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mikedano
Mar 13, 2003, 11:31 PM
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Perhaps one lesson to learn from this is that cams are complicated pieces of equipment (perhaps the most complicated thing on a rack.) When used correctly they're great, but it's pretty easy to use them incorrectly. Therefore, WHEN IN DOUBT, NUT (or hex) IT OUT.
Clever, huh?
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jt512
Mar 14, 2003, 1:04 AM
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In reply to: cam stops in single axle cams only work when two opposing lobes are completely uncammed. in this situation one set of lobes was cammed and the other was uncammed, therefore the cam stops were not engaged.
Actually, in this situation, they were Aliens, which do not have cam stops.
-Jay
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number7
Mar 14, 2003, 2:24 AM
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I love this site, I love this site, I love this site! It is very unfortunate but a fact that people do and will get hurt rock climbing. Any one of us could be the next accident, no matter how skilled we might be. But this site makes the fear and the mountain of information to learn so much more tollerable. Thank you Philbox for all of the information you have provided to us for I can see no other reason than to help and inform. Sometimes we only get the accident report, but are missing many peices that we can learn from. Because we have so much of the story, I feel particularly close to this. And again, I wish my very best to those involved.
Peace, M
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philbox
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Mar 14, 2003, 4:31 AM
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In reply to: phil: since you said that its you thats doing the investigation into this accident -- have you been up the climb to the location where the black cam ripped (and the blue cam?) -- .. perhaps you can post pictures on what scars might have been left on the rock from the ripped placements .. that would give some hints as to what the cams did under load. -- ricardo
They were a Black Alien and a Green Alien that ripped and no I haven`t been up there but one of the other guys went up to retrieve the other gear that was left up there. He says that he saw where the Green Alien ripped from. I`m heading back out the Saturday morning so I will attempt to get a pic of where I think the placement ripped from. I`m gunna take a Black Alien and a Green Alien up there and fish around to try to identify what went wrong.
Number7 brings up a good point too. Often we hear about accidents but more often than not we are all left wondering what happened technically. I do believe that we climbers can learn much from each other by examining all the causes of these events and learn to develop habits that preclude us from stuffing up big time. This I believe is far and away a much better way of modifying behaviour than to legislate. Once you have legislated rules and try to codify behaviour you begin a dumbing down process. Education is much much better than legislation.
I`m also a great believer in learning from mistakes, those of my own and just as importantly from the mistakes of others. What was that quote, I stand on the shoulders of giants (or was that the other way around where giants are standing on my shoulders). Learning by the mistakes of others is like a pyramid reaching for the sky. Many mistakes were made and avoided to bring to us a body of knowledge that we can learn from if we take the trouble to educate ourselves.
...Phil...
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number7
Mar 14, 2003, 4:44 AM
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Amen.
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smithclimber
Mar 14, 2003, 6:20 AM
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"A wise man learns from his mistakes, a wiser man learns from the mistakes of others".
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smithclimber
Mar 14, 2003, 6:24 AM
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"A wise man learns from his mistakes, a wiser man learns from the mistakes of others".
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philbox
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Mar 17, 2003, 9:55 PM
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I`ve posted some more pics of the offending green Alien placement. We went up to the crag last weekend and rapped the route to determine how these cams pulled. We placed cams in the locations where they would have pulled from.
http://www.pbase.com/...t_frog_buttress_8303
The Green Alien was known to have pulled from the location where we have taken pictures of our placement. Our investigations lead us to believe that the green Alien walked in to a position where the Alien was too small resulting in the lobes on one side becoming fully open. We also discovered that the large block that the Alien sat behind had some degree of movement thus all the evidence leads us to believe that this placement was never going to hold a fall.
The trivial nature of the climbing up to this point leads the novice climber into a false sense of security. This placement would have worked if climber had placed another piece when she clambered on top of the block. It would have been okay to protect a short scrambly move to another placement. The thing is that there are other better options for pro placement around this block with two large hex placements either side of the large block.
The lessons to be learned here is to test blocks for movement, be suspicious of all blocks, flakes etc. especially when useing active camming devices, look for the optimal placement with the biggest and bomberest piece of gear that you can get. Extend your cams to minimise the chances of them walking. Don`t blindly trust your placements just because it is a cam.
...Phil...
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jumaringjeff
Mar 17, 2003, 10:48 PM
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yeow that green alien placement is scary lookin'. i wouldn't even think of climbing past that, nor would I try to hang off of it.
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ricardol
Mar 17, 2003, 11:11 PM
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The green placement is definately bad -- you need to use the next size up at least.
The black placement also leaves alot of be desired -- i usually like to place my cams suck that the lobes area all "encased" in the rock -- the black placement has one of thelobes outside the crack -- (even though its making contact with the rock) -- also i usually like my cam placements to be deeper than the black one is .. the tips of the lobes are outside of the constriction .. which can make the cam "pop" out.
-- ugh -- so sad that this accident could have been prevented ..
.. inc eht green cam case -- using a bigger cam, deeper in the crack would have helped -- or a different piece -- or more pieces above it ..
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philbox
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Mar 17, 2003, 11:13 PM
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The thing about the green Alien placement is that it would have looked ok to a novice leader but subsequent to climbing past it without a runner placed on the cam it walked in to that dodgy placement and then of course the slightly wobbly block meant that this cam would not hold a shock load. The climber fell on the black Alien which was in a dodgy placement to start with and it blew resulting in a shock load to the green Alien which by that time was bunk.
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philbox
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Mar 17, 2003, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: The green placement is definately bad -- you need to use the next size up at least. The black placement also leaves alot of be desired -- i usually like to place my cams suck that the lobes area all "encased" in the rock -- the black placement has one of thelobes outside the crack -- (even though its making contact with the rock) -- also i usually like my cam placements to be deeper than the black one is .. the tips of the lobes are outside of the constriction .. which can make the cam "pop" out. -- ugh -- so sad that this accident could have been prevented .. .. inc eht green cam case -- using a bigger cam, deeper in the crack would have helped -- or a different piece -- or more pieces above it ..
There`s no question that the black cam is bunk. The green Alien on the other hand could have been okay but for the lack of a runner and compounding the problems here is that the block was wobbly. I`m not sure that a larger cam would have worked in this placement given that the block had movement. A larger cam could well have moved the block as well. I think you hit the nail on the head with the comment about placing more gear above this cam. There were also ample opportunities to place big hexes at the sides of this block.
I`m definitely coming to the conclusion that the climber did not have sufficient gear placing skills in her repertoir. I think that novice trad leaders need much more coaching in gear placing options. I always coach my pupils in the art of the funky non obvious gear placement. Easy placements come somewhat naturally but when things get a bit odd then one needs lots more skills.
Anyway keep the comments flowing, this is highly educational for any budding trad crackmeister.
...Phil...
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philbox
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Mar 18, 2003, 9:42 PM
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Below is a pic of the tipped out lobes on the green Alien placement. This was a pic taken for a recreation of events leading up to the accident
The pic below here is another view of the placement.
Here is a pic looking down from the top of the v groove to the blocks. The closest block to the v groove is where the green Alien was placed.
While we were poking around we found that this large block had some movement. This meant that because the green Alien got wiggled and walked in to a slightly larger placement and the Alien subsequently had two lobes fully opened and then the rock had movement the fall ripped the Alien out of its position in the crack.
We found alternatives to this placement on either side of this green Alien placement. There were two large hex placements that could have been utilised. As a matter of fact where the black Alien blew further up the crack there was also a large hex placement nearby that would have been perfect.
...Phil...
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bandycoot
Mar 18, 2003, 11:22 PM
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This makes me want to critique my friends' placements MUCH MORE OFTEN. It is truly a sad accident that could have been prevented if B had known what to look for in a placement. There is nothing wrong with all active protection on a climb as some of you are implying, provided it is GOOD. As a result of this topic, I'm going to go and preach good gear placements much more often, and stress that beginner climbers need to follow A LOT before leading and discuss the pro's and con's of certain placements. Thank you all for the excellent information and discussion.
Josh
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trillium
Mar 19, 2003, 2:50 PM
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I printed this topic and all of its replies out and plan on showing a few people the photos and opinions. It truly is an excellent teaching tool. I think we should have a regular section in the forum labeled: "What's wrong with this picture?" Thank you philbox and all of you who put effort into thoughtful replies.
trillium
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mewalrus
Jun 11, 2003, 5:38 AM
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Here is good advice from Metolius, I was reading this today and thought of this accident and thread.
In reply to: It's critical to place micro-sized TCUs and Power Cams near their full retraction.
I would guess this applies to all micro cams. Make sure you slot them TIGHT!!
I know sometimes people worry about making their cams permanent fixtures in the rock, but the alternative is even worse.
One other thing. In my opinion its almost impossible to beat a well placed hex, as phils comments alluded to. If I have a good stance I'm always looking to place a bomber hex.
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ptone
Jun 13, 2003, 10:32 PM
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There are alot of good observations here. Thanks Phil, for opening the discussion on this. As tragic as accidents can be, they happen, and better to learn from them than try to make them go away...
I'm newer to trad, and learned first only passive gear, so I tend to look at the rock first, rather than the cam's spring, so here's my 2 cents.
Here's some observations/questions it seems no one has made yet:
Seems to me the Black was unstable, slid out with minimal shock. Makes me wonder, for very small cams like that, where the action is minimal and spring tension is less, could there be a gear effect like with the grigri, where you need a bit of shock load to 'set' the camming action? If there is no load, in a situ where the cam is sitting in an outward flare, could a slow even pull cause it to fail?
Looking at the Green, it looks as if from below it might have appeared OK, as the bottom lobe seemed sprung fine, and it may have silhouetted the view of the overextended top lobe. If she placed it at or above her head on the way up, she may have thought it was cammed more than it was.
Also, from the side wear after tearing, it looks like the cam twisted when it ripped. I wonder if without cam stops, a cam unequally balanced over a crystal or imperfection would have a tendancy to twist, which would counter the camming action a bit. If the cam walked down a bit of a protrusion or crystal at that moment, it'd slip without camming. If it was shallow enough, bye bye.
I say 'I wonder' here, cause I do. If anyone can touch on this, please do!
Thanks, and my thoughts to her and hers today.
peace
-p
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philbox
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Jun 15, 2003, 10:38 PM
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In reply to: Here's some observations/questions it seems no one has made yet: Seems to me the Black was unstable, slid out with minimal shock. Makes me wonder, for very small cams like that, where the action is minimal and spring tension is less, could there be a gear effect like with the grigri, where you need a bit of shock load to 'set' the camming action? If there is no load, in a situ where the cam is sitting in an outward flare, could a slow even pull cause it to fail?
The Black alien was certainly placed extremely poorly. It was never gunna hold. Only two lobes of that cam were ever in contact with the rock. This cam I believe was placed in desperation and hope. During a rap inspection we simply could not find any position where there would have been the remotest chance that a black Alien would have held. You are correct when you state that micro gear has to be set for it to hold.
I don`t believe that a cam will fail from a steady slow pull where the cam is set in an outward flare.
In reply to: Looking at the Green, it looks as if from below it might have appeared OK, as the bottom lobe seemed sprung fine, and it may have silhouetted the view of the overextended top lobe. If she placed it at or above her head on the way up, she may have thought it was cammed more than it was.
She had the luxury of standing on a platform and placing the green Alien at around elbow height. As a matter of fact she could have set up a bivy on the ledge she was standing on. I believe that she had ample opportunity to set this cam correctly but subsequent to her setting this cam and as she moved past it the quickdraw wiggled the cam in to a position where two lobes on one side were fully opened.
In reply to: Also, from the side wear after tearing, it looks like the cam twisted when it ripped. I wonder if without cam stops, a cam unequally balanced over a crystal or imperfection would have a tendancy to twist, which would counter the camming action a bit. If the cam walked down a bit of a protrusion or crystal at that moment, it'd slip without camming. If it was shallow enough, bye bye. I say 'I wonder' here, cause I do. If anyone can touch on this, please do! Thanks, and my thoughts to her and hers today. peace -p
Cam stops would have had no effect on the outcome of this accident, except if a Black Diamond Camalot had been used. Cam stops on any other brand will allow the head to rotate around the axle. Sure the cams cannot rotate past being fully open but they do not prevent the head rotating on the axle once fully open.
The rock at this cliff is not characterised with crystals, generally the cracks are fairly smooth. The main problems with this placement is that the block that the cam was placed behind could move slightly and the cam walked to a position that was less than optimal. In other words this placement had everything working against it.
As stated previously there were better and much more bomb proof options that could and should have been identified close by.
...Phil...
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saltlaketrails
Jun 15, 2003, 11:46 PM
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Just about 2 years ago, I had a similar fall--where gear ripped and I decked. Reading this post brings back horrible memroies, but also important lessons. I too forgot to put on my helmet, but I never will again. That I am walking, breathing, and climbing is almost unbelievable, and I hope Ms. B will enjoy a similarly miracoulus recovery!
As for the placements, I think the obvious point has been made that small cam placements are tricky and care must be taken both on the selection of size and to make sure the cam doesn't walk into a larger size slot.
Looking at the photos of the route, it looks much like the route I fell off of, in the sense that it looks as if good placements abound. The lesson from my fall was to place lots and lots of gear when you're anywhere close to the ground or a ledge. I think of my gear placements like I think of setting up a bomber belay station. Until I have three solid pieces placed that can keep me from hitting the ground, I'm going to keep looking for good placements to back things up. Especially when you get to a good stance or a ledge, like you see in the pictures of this route, take the time to put something in that you can trust your life to. Otherwise, if it's a hard section and there's no good stance coming soon, I'd rather pump out placing gear than pump out climbing above questionable gear.
Reading through all the posts, I'm not sure another point has been made. I recommend new trad leaders leading many, many, many routes far below their ability level--where falls are much less likely--before trying to lead anything with tricky pro or anything near your level of ability. Also, cleaning gear or placing gear at the bottom of the crag doesn't teach you how to select and place the right piece while you're in a strenous/akward position. Before leading anything hard, I'd suggest placing gear on toprope on a route near your limit. If you can't grab the right size and place it correctly when you're straining at your limit....then don't try it!
Best wishes to B....and climb safe.
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ptone
Jun 16, 2003, 3:15 AM
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Thanks for replying.
I was going to ask a related gear question, but I'll use a new post.
climb safe!
peace
-p
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the_pirate
Jun 26, 2003, 4:24 AM
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Wow.... Phil, thank you for posting this. Many people brought up good points about the cams being too small for the placements and needing to place the micro cams at near their full retraction. I hope we can all learn a lesson from this. Please people, please practice your gear placements so that some good can be taken from this tragedy.
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froman
Jun 26, 2003, 5:26 AM
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many thanks to all for the info here - this is a great analysis for fledgling leaders like me...
although i am a novice at trad, i would still like to emphasize the importance of placements and protecting near ledges and stuff...the other day i did a mock lead (basically led the route with the other end of the rope, placing gear on toprope) of a route that was well within my ability level...halfway up i placed a marginal hex (the crack is all flaring to the back and ragged and difficult to protect)...climbed up to a ledge where there were no placements, then slipped on a loose pebble and took a tumble. if i had actually been leading, i would have first broken my back on a sharp pointy rib of rock below the hex, the hex would have pulled, i would have decked, and i probably would be dead right now (i had already placed a bunch of pieces below the hex but they wouldn't have mattered)
i have taken a gear placement course and have seconded a bunch and have done a bunch of mock leads - but still - i learned so much from this one fall and was thoroughly humbled. now i don't want to lead until i am waaay more experienced with gear placement - doing a course and inspecting gear is no way preparation for a novice lead - there's no substitute for placing hundreds of pieces in a safe environment). fortunately i learned this while on toprope - instead of carrying with me the illusion that i was placing gear well where an actual fall would've been disastrous...not only did i learn that i need to place gear well, but i need to place gear smart - especially around ledges, evaluating the circumstances of a fall. anyway, for any novices like me who are gungho about getting into trad leading - make sure you know what you're doing with your gear!!! there's a lot on the line...
thanks again for the info, great job
cheers phil
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