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deadfish
Jul 8, 2003, 6:32 PM
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dammit...JT types faster than me.
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chitlinsconcarne
Jul 8, 2003, 7:26 PM
Post #127 of 198
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In reply to: In reply to: Seasoned climbers learn that pulling huge amounts of rope to clip at panic speed is a gumby move. Note to self, never let chitlin belay me, he's obviously way too "seasoned" to see his mistake and be willing to learn.
Settle down there. I ain't always right about everything and we've all got different ideas on some things, but after just over 25 years playing this game on everything from remote alpine walls to hard sport routes, I have picked up a few things along the way.
The proof in the puddin'?
I'm still alive.
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murf
Jul 8, 2003, 7:27 PM
Post #128 of 198
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In reply to: It's not 10' back to the bolt. It's 8'. The relevant distance is the distance between the tie-in point (your waist) and the lower bolt. You fall 8 + 12 = 20 feet, the same distance as if you climbed higher and clipped at your waist. You do, however, land 2' lower, since you fell from 2' lower on the route, which is obviously relevant close to the ground. -Jay
Yup good call. Same distance, lower fall factor ( more rope out ), closer to ground.
Murf
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mickymac1
Jul 8, 2003, 7:34 PM
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At the risk of repeating someone else because I don't feel like reading thru 9 pages of postings when it's 95 friggin degrees in here......."Dude, you were the hand!!" :shock:
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billcoe_
Jul 9, 2003, 8:29 PM
Post #130 of 198
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There is 3 important things which I am 100 percent sure of here.
1) Do not EVER, EVER drop a climber. EVER!!!!!!! It is inexcusable. That has always been the rule. Don't show up here saying "it was the devices" fault. It was yours and you should either quit climbing or learn how to do it correctly PERIOD. - no matter what you use.
2) Do not argue with JT.
3) Do not take JT's draws, even if they are left unattended hanging on a route you would like to do for 2 or 3 months. Don't do it.
That should cover it.
Regards:
Bill
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 8:33 PM
Post #131 of 198
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In reply to: There is 3 important things which I am 100 percent sure of here. 2) Do not argue with JT.
It's such a simple rule, too. I'm surprised that so many people don't get it.
-Jay
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kevlar
Jul 9, 2003, 11:05 PM
Post #132 of 198
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I think the rope was in backwards
:shock:
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 10, 2003, 2:13 AM
Post #133 of 198
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My opinions:
In an ideal world Jay would be more right then wrong, In the real world chitlinsconcarne is more right then wrong.
Speed clipping on the first two bolts is most often a gumby move. The belayer has to walk to fine of a line between keeping you off the ground an letting you make the clip. Faster is not safer.
Speed clipping is the most common cause of blowing a clip.
You think you can feed a speed clip with a munter?
Not making allowances for your belayer is not very bright, and calling them a bad belayer is not quite accurate.
Most often a panicked leader that grabs the rope at his ankles and tries to clip at the limit of his reach shorts himself. (see below)
I can speed clip fast but rarely need to. My gf clips even faster and often needs to. She says thank you if I feed her fast enough, she also doesn’t complain if someone doesn’t make it and say’s "sorry" that she needed to clip that fast.
I cannot feed a speed clip with an atc or a munter without leaving a loop so big that you almost don’t have to feed the clip at all. Particularly with a six three climber with a +6 ape index. If you can do three pulls with an atc in under half a second I will buy you dinner.
Most people clip from to low. The best climbers don’t make a habit of that, and clipping at your waist is usually more efficient due to avoiding lifting the rope.
Warning your belayer when your going to clip is a good idea when your not climbing at your limit.
As far as falling the same distance if you clip low compared to high, I think your wrong. And the empirical data I have seen supports this. My GF clips by letting the rope slide over her hand while she raises it, this makes sure she pulls exactly the amount of rope she needs. Most people do not clip this way. When I clip at the limit of my reach. I grab the rope and make sure I don’t short myself on the rope going from my hand to my harness by grabbing a little extra rope, usually about a foot. On the other end of the system the belayer has to feed five to six feet of rope to feed the clip and usually over shoots to be on the safe side. (one to two feet to prevent shorting the clip) Neither of these factors come into play when you clip at your waist. A really good leader and belayer can minimize these factors, but they cannot eliminate them. Add in that your more likely to deck if you clip low and I will stick with clipping at your waist being safer.
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jt512
Jul 10, 2003, 5:16 AM
Post #134 of 198
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In reply to: Speed clipping on the first two bolts is most often a gumby move.
"Most often" I don't know. I do know that there are risky clipping stances at some 2nd bolts, and that minimizing your time on them minimizes your risk of falling. On other routes there are delicate clipping stances, where pulling up rope smoothly is safer than pulling it up quickly. As usual, it depends.
In reply to: The belayer has to walk to fine of a line between keeping you off the ground an letting you make the clip.
Well, that's his job.
In reply to: Speed clipping is the most common cause of blowing a clip.
Maybe my brain is becoming addled with age, but I don't recall ever having blown a clip because I was clipping fast. I rarely blow clips, and if I do, it's usually due to a lapse of concentration. If I'm worried enough about the clip to clip it fast, I'm worried enough to be concentrating on it, and am very unlikely to blow the clip.
Another thing is that clipping fast minimizes your time on the hold, which can be a factor on a pumpy route.
In reply to: Not making allowances for your belayer is not very bright, and calling them a bad belayer is not quite accurate.
I hold belayers up to a very high standard, as do most experienced sport climbers.
In reply to: I cannot feed a speed clip with an atc or a munter without leaving a loop so big that you almost don’t have to feed the clip at all. Particularly with a six three climber with a +6 ape index. If you can do three pulls with an atc in under half a second I will buy you dinner.
I can belay Jack Marshall, who is the fastest clipper I've ever seen, routinely clips overhead, and probably has a one-foot reach advantage over me. I can do this while keeping a correct amount of slack in the rope. I have, admittedly short roped Jack on occasion, but only because of inattention on my part (not that that's an excuse), not because I can't keep up with him.
In reply to: Most people clip from to low. The best climbers don’t make a habit of that...
How good do you have to be to be one of the best? I've seen both Chris Lindner and Jason Campbell clip overhead. There is a pic on this site of Chris Lindner at NJC making an incredibly reachy clip.
In reply to: and clipping at your waist is usually more efficient due to avoiding lifting the rope.
All else equal, that is true, but the quality of the clipping the hold/stance is more important than whether you have to lift rope or not. The clip in the middle of the crux on Hellraiser, of which there is a picture on my profile, is a classic example of this. I used to make the clip from a higher side pull, but eventually found that I could get a bit of a rest after making the clip if I clipped it at the limit of my reach from a lower undercling, as shown in the picture. Figuring that out was the last piece in the puzzle I needed to redpoint the route.
In reply to: Warning your belayer when your going to clip is a good idea when your not climbing at your limit.
When I'm really at my limit, I'm likely too out of breath to warn my belayer -- I'm not kidding.
In reply to: On the other end of the system the belayer has to feed five to six feet of rope to feed the clip and usually over shoots to be on the safe side. (one to two feet to prevent shorting the clip) Neither of these factors come into play when you clip at your waist.
This is getting a bit esoteric. The belayer can't always see that you're clipping at your waist. I've long-roped a leader many times because all I can see is that they are reaching for the rope. If the route is at all long, as they tend to be in this neck of the woods, I can't tell from the ground where the bolt is. I pull out an armful of slack only to have them clip at their waist.
-Jay
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kalcario
Jul 10, 2003, 5:35 AM
Post #135 of 198
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*Add in that your more likely to deck if you clip low and I will stick with clipping at your waist being safer.*
We will all be at the Bear Crag at Mammoth this weekend if you'd like to put you and your "gf "s incredible draw clipping (and placing!) talents on display, from the length and breadth of your posts it sounds like we all could learn a lot about a subject we heretofore gave little or no thought...you could put on a clinic for us 30-year guys on how to properly ascend sport routes, we'd really appreciate it...
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 10, 2003, 6:05 AM
Post #136 of 198
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Kalcario:
Would you disagree with the notion that clipping at your waist is safer and often better for a send?
Or that speed clipping on the first two bolts when your not pumped is not such a great idea? I speed clip when I am pushing it, that is rarely on the first two bolts. I also don't feel a need to put my belayer to the test when I am that close to the ground.
These are such commonly held assumptions that I find it unusual for them to even be questioned.
I need to clarify this, Speed clipping doesn't cause you to blow the clip, the combination of being on the edge and doing a speed clip is the most common scenario for a blown clip. On my project routes most often if the clip is that hard I will skip it. (steep routes)
I would agree that blown clips are rare.
Jay, calling it esoteric doesn't change the facts. If my reasoning is off I wish you would point it out to me. As far as I know it has always been common knowledge that clipping at your waist leads to smaller falls.
As far as sport climbing in California, I will pass. I prefer steep and cali is anything but that. As I am living here now I will stick with trad as this state is much better suited for it.
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kalcario
Jul 10, 2003, 6:16 AM
Post #137 of 198
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WTF is speed clipping? And the Bear is steep, been to Jailhouse? It's the same thing.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 10, 2003, 6:40 AM
Post #138 of 198
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Actually I haven't been to jailhouse, the access noise always scared me off.
Bear is new, is it worth it compared to the red river? What kind of rock is it?
I did go to echo cliff and that seemed pretty decent.
As it is with working so much I am not in sport shape, so trad works good for me right now.
This fall I hope to go back to the red or better yet Thailand
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jt512
Jul 10, 2003, 4:22 PM
Post #139 of 198
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All this talk about whether it is safer to clip overheaed or at the waist has assumed that the fall is going to occur while making the clip. In fact, few falls occur while clipping. More often, falls occur from blowing a hard a move, and this is the very motivation for clipping overhead. Most bolts (on sport routes) are placed to protect hard moves. You want to clip the bolt, then make the move, not the other way around, so you clip the bolt overhead. Assuming there is any risk to the fall at all, this is usually the safer thing to do. I would say that this is true even at the second bolt, if the bolt protects a hard move and the lower clipping stance/hold is good. If the lower hold was dicey, then, depending on the bolt placement, you could be better off clipping after the move, if it would reduce the risk of falling onto the ground.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 10, 2003, 7:56 PM
Post #140 of 198
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Hey Jay, I hope you don’t get mad at me for playing your own game.
I see you avoided the question of whether you would fall further clipping at your waist or clipping overhead. If my conjecture is correct, your statement that you would fall the same distance either way was incorrect.
In reply to: All this talk about whether it is safer to clip overheaed or at the waist has assumed that the fall is going to occur while making the clip. In fact, few falls occur while clipping.
I would mostly disagree with this, from what I have seen many people fall from stopping and thinking about trying to clip in the middle of the crux. Often when there is a jug right at or just after the bolt. Many people incorrectly feel that clipping the bolt constitutes safety and success. They clip the bolt and get a measure of relief regardless of the fact that it is harder. For myself I will go for the jug and worry about the bolt later.
Sport climbers have a tendency to place bolts every so many feet irregardless of the good holds, this often leads to the bolt being in between the crux and the jug.
In reply to: More often, falls occur from blowing a hard a move, and this is the very motivation for clipping overhead. Most bolts (on sport routes) are placed to protect hard moves.
How often can you reach past a crux to clip a bolt? I would agree that there is usually a bolt below a crux and that at the crux they often put the bolt as far above the clipping jug as possible. On a well bolted route, most often you are not straining to clip over you head.
In reply to: You want to clip the bolt, then make the move, not the other way around, so you clip the bolt overhead. Assuming there is any risk to the fall at all, this is usually the safer thing to do.
You want to clip off the good hold regardless of whether it is above or below the bolt. Assuming there is not a safety issue, which is usually the case on a sport climb.
In reply to: I would say that this is true even at the second bolt, if the bolt protects a hard move and the lower clipping stance/hold is good. If the lower hold was dicey, then, depending on the bolt placement, you could be better off clipping after the move, if it would reduce the risk of falling onto the ground.
I would agree with this. But I would still not agree with rushing a clip in this situation. Some of our differences in opinion could be attributed to the fact that I don't sport climb on thin moves much anymore, and if there is a dicey clip on the second bolt, I would probably just stick clip it.
Ps. One of the reasons I am playing this game is that it is good practice for me as I am planning on attending law school, and you happen to be the best practice on this site. It is not personal and I need the practice.
Just to give you fair warning, next up I am taking issue with your claim that ropes lose elasticity over time is a fact.
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curt
Jul 11, 2003, 1:31 AM
Post #141 of 198
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Dan,
In reply to: I see you avoided the question of whether you would fall further clipping at your waist or clipping overhead. If my conjecture is correct, your statement that you would fall the same distance either way was incorrect.
Curt
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 11, 2003, 3:10 AM
Post #142 of 198
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Curt,
I never said different.
The factor that you mentioned depends how you clip as I stated before. the way I often clip (grabbing the rope as opposed to letting it slide through your hand), I do leave a some slack in order to prevent shorting myself.
You left out the second part where when feeding a long clip your not going to feed the exact amount needed given that you don't want to short him. When clipping at your waist you don't need to feed the clip at all.
Given those two factors, I will say that your going to fall further clipping over your head.
The third factor that effects the first two is that we were also talking about speed clips
The argument was about falling the same distance in both situations, I disagree with that contention.
I agree about the fall factor but that is not really an issue on a sport climb.
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elrojobdugs
Jul 19, 2003, 6:30 AM
Post #143 of 198
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kalcario... dude take a chill pill and stop being such a jerk... i think everyone is fed up with your crap... they ask questions and make comments and you respond with insults... maybe because you think your better than them or youre and old grouchball... either way if you want to sound like you know what your doing then actually pay attention to what people are say or asking... i thought that your posts on this subject might your only childish ones, but after looking at your forums... it seems to me and obviously to others that than your a whining little biotch on her period so take some midol and some vagasil and chill out. period.
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billcoe_
Jul 20, 2003, 2:29 AM
Post #144 of 198
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Please go back and re-read #2. At this point I'm not sure what the arguement has evolved into, but at least it's not a shoe thread.................yet. :lol:
elro... dude, please re-read your own post...if you could apply it to yourself...please consider it. Kalc isn't yanking your chain that hard!! Come on, lets keep it light and somewhat honest and friendly. :(
b
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mike_ok
Jul 20, 2003, 2:54 AM
Post #145 of 198
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Either way you clip, though (waist or overhead), which type of shoe do you think sticks the best for sport climbing? I like 5.10's but I hear good things about Mad Rock.
I'm thinking about buying some Mad Rocks because my 5.10's wear out too fast and I need something more durable.
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rmleon
Nov 14, 2005, 7:45 AM
Post #146 of 198
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As far as I remember, it says clearly that the GriGri should not be used for Lead Belay.
Yes, I have heard that some people do it.
But the GriGri relays on friction for locking up.
Do you remember the "static friction" and "dynamic friction"?
The force that the Static friction (when the two surfaces are not moving relatively to each other) produce is bigger than dynamic friction.
When you are lead belaying you might pull the handle to feed the rope right? That means that if the leader falls right at that moment, the rope will start to move, even releasing the black plastic lever might not be enough for locking the rope because the rope is passing through the GriGri and therefore there is a dynamic friction (low force on the GriGri's surface).
The dynamic friction might be too low for the device to lock (especially with slippery ropes).
Short version of my theory: If the rope is already passing through the device (because the GriGri was unlocked) it might not lock the fall.
I think there are out there a couple of self-locking devices that are specially made for lead belay.... I think it is wiser to spend some extra money on that instead abusing your equipment.
However, still, like someone mentioned, not just because you buy a self-locking device you should take it lightly and do hands-free belaying, because the reponsability is only yours, the device cannot think and therefore it is not responsible for anything.
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jt512
Nov 14, 2005, 6:22 PM
Post #147 of 198
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In reply to: As far as I remember, it says clearly that the GriGri should not be used for Lead Belay.
That is incorrect.
Jay
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jimdavis
Nov 14, 2005, 7:04 PM
Post #148 of 198
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In reply to: As far as I remember, it says clearly that the GriGri should not be used for Lead Belay.
Post that in the sport forum, the trad forum, and the aid forum...see what kind of responces you get.
I don't like it for lead belaying, but it sure is used for it. I'm pretty sure Petzl even describes a method to use it to lead belay on their website! Could be a climbing article I'm thinking of though.
Either way, it'll work for lead belaying.
Cheers,
Jim
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granitegod
Nov 15, 2005, 3:28 AM
Post #149 of 198
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gri gri's suck.
I fell 20 feet IN A GYM and almost decked, belayed by a mature, experienced, knowledgable gri-gir user.
that's what I have to say about that
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glyrocks
Nov 15, 2005, 3:34 AM
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In reply to: belayed by a mature, experienced, knowledgable gri-gir user.
Obviously.
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