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maypop
May 8, 2003, 3:59 PM
Post #26 of 33
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Registered: Apr 18, 2003
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*Not a higher standard, just a different one.*
Plainly bogus.
The Establishment? That's a construct, just as cliche as Nazi references. (It's called hyperbole -- look it up.) And I'd like my climbing reading to be a little more than The Voice of the Establishment.
Look, what Thesenga did was wrong. No doubt it can only be defended so far (I did my best). But attacking an apology is an exercise in self-rightous, self-indulgent poor taste. It's an easy target, because it's predicated on admiting wrong. So let him say he's sorry and move on.
And, yes, most rangers are good people, and yes climbers shoud show them respect (fairly, a few do have Nazi-ish trendencies). But the public stoning of a climber for playing a goofy prank is pretty ironic considering the sport's counter-culture roots. And the stoning was carried out by climbers who love to wax sentimental about the golden age of freedom.
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w6jxm
May 8, 2003, 4:00 PM
Post #27 of 33
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Registered: Oct 14, 2002
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Regardless of how we may feel about these two incidents, we need to listen to Jonathan's side for a while. What is done is done. He lost his job as editor, is in bad light with the public and the park service, and will probably never have the respect of many of us again. Lighten up already. It is a dead horse. He explained his action about the bolt chopping and expressed his remorse about the fire incedent. What more do you guys want?
Granted, we all know that what he did was either misjudged, misinterpreted, or just bad judgement on his part. That much has been stated in numerous posts. Put yourself in his place. How would you have responed and how would that response have been conveyed to the press and the climbing community. I'm sure in that somewhere in the process there would be misunderstandings and exagerations. His actions, right or wrong, are in the past. The only thing left if reconciliation and repair. Either we can continue to hang him out to dry, or we can help him become part of the community we love and work on improving our relation with Parks and the public. It is only when we work together that we will succed together in promoting and accessing climbing for the future.
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dingus
May 8, 2003, 4:32 PM
Post #28 of 33
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
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In reply to: Plainly bogus.
I hope your argument can rise to this level of dismissal.
In reply to: The Establishment? That's a construct, just as cliche as Nazi references. (It's called hyperbole -- look it up.)
That's IT??? You label my point 'bogus' and this is the best you can do? Like it or not, the editor of a climbing magazine is as mainstream climbing establishment as it gets. The manner and wording of his dismissal reflects that fact. The owners of the magazine clearly felt what Thesenga did reflected poorly upon his position at the company. They fired him, in case you weren't paying attention. And hyperbole? While you may have been completely insincere when comparing rangers to mass murderers, don't be so hasty in assigning the same insincerity to others.
In reply to: And I'd like my climbing reading to be a little more than The Voice of the Establishment.
Ah, more hyperbole! Good thing you read the forums then. Climbing magazines are the place where gear gets reviewed after the manufacturer signs the advertising agreement for that issue.
In reply to: Look, what Thesenga did was wrong. No doubt it can only be defended so far (I did my best).
Big of you, admitting that. (irony - look it up) Why you feel the need to defend I cannot know. Bet you wouldn't defend a bunch of nameless rednecks smashing beer bottles all over Intersection Rock eh?
In reply to: But attacking an apology is an exercise in self-rightous, self-indulgent poor taste. It's an easy target, because it's predicated on admiting wrong. So let him say he's sorry and move on.
I'm inclined to agree with you. However, I wasn't attacking his apology and had nothing at all to say until you compared rangers to Nazi's. I'd say it was you who went over the top. I was putting your hyperbole out with the trash where it belongs.
In reply to: And, yes, most rangers are good people, and yes climbers shoud show them respect (fairly, a few do have Nazi-ish trendencies).
Still more hyperbole eh? Or are you sincere this time? Cause the way you keep mentioning it, I'm guessing you're more than just a bit serious about it. So maybe the Nazi thing wasn't hyperbole after all?
Name one national park ranger that executed Jews in a gas chamber. Just one...
In reply to: But the public stoning of a climber for playing a goofy prank is pretty ironic considering the sport's counter-culture roots. And the stoning was carried out by climbers who love to wax sentimental about the golden age of freedom.
Maybe some of us freedom loving old climbers are even more passionate about our environment and don't like drunks hucking beer bottle in the river or starting fires in the middle of the night at J Tree. Ever think of that?
DMT
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crag
May 8, 2003, 4:43 PM
Post #29 of 33
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Registered: Jan 29, 2003
Posts: 623
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I don't know JT nor have I climbed the route he chopped. I did not see him pour white gas on a rock and light it on fire. Furthermore I do not know JT to be a heavy drinker or someone who is reckless.
I only know of these occurrences by the reporting of others and the later admissions of JT.
But I do know one thing, chopping a route and pouring gas on a rock and lighting it on fire are not the actions usually deemed positive with in most circles.
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maypop
May 8, 2003, 5:37 PM
Post #30 of 33
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Registered: Apr 18, 2003
Posts: 29
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Dingbat -- first, what's your problem with rednecks? What's with the weird little vignette (like a story -- look it up) about me getting beat up, and now all the beer bottle stuff? Are you saying I ain't too edumacted?
Regarding using the Nazis as a metaphor, I don't want to offend you anymore -- certainly the historic, actual Nazis are no laughing matter. But, from Saturday Night Live skits to Philip Roth novels, using the Nazi's (or brown shirt references) as a metaphor is pretty widespread.
Anyway, I'm not interested in going tit-for-tat about this forever. Thesenga goofed, and now that he's apologized everyone can take their final cheap shot at him and get back to discussing why it's a good idea to steal quickdraws.
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alpinelynx
May 8, 2003, 6:14 PM
Post #31 of 33
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Registered: Aug 11, 2002
Posts: 280
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even Rob Lowe was able to get work after a while..
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chugach001
May 8, 2003, 8:18 PM
Post #32 of 33
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Registered: Oct 21, 2002
Posts: 311
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You're a big man for stepping up and admitting your mistakes - good for you. Life rewards courage more than it punishes stupidity. Good luck in your bright future.
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hooker
May 8, 2003, 9:23 PM
Post #33 of 33
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Registered: Apr 22, 2003
Posts: 173
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In reply to: What more do you guys want?
Ummm, actually LESS would be better than more....
What wasn't called for was an UNSOLICITED, politically-minded, hey-I'm-a-victim-too, apology after the fact, when all that was needed was proper behavior to start with.
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