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hammer_
Jun 19, 2003, 4:36 AM
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I find the more I climb the less gear I take, It does not matter if I have beta or not. In the post "your rack" and others like it I see that people say they have like 20 cams, 2.5 sets of nuts, 14 shoulder slings, 4 double length, hexs, tricams, and bla bla bla.. are these people free climbing with all this gear, aiding or what?
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crackaddict
Jun 19, 2003, 4:44 AM
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I am kind of the same.
I only bring what I need.
But I am on of those who have a lot of gear.
I do have 34 cams and a few sets of nuts. But I also have multipe size of the same for climbing in Indian Creek and doing aid routes.
Rarley almost never do I carry it all up a free climb.
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hammer_
Jun 19, 2003, 4:44 AM
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I guess its the gear they own not their racks. So what when in your area do you have on your rack on a typical multipitch day? (please state area)
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kevlar
Jun 19, 2003, 5:00 AM
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I personally like a big rack...but then I only take a set of nuts with me on any climb I do 8)
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phreakdigital
Jun 19, 2003, 6:17 AM
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Aid climbing and trad bigwalls take a lot more gear than do one pitch trad climbs...and in general you run into places where you need more gear or more specific types of gear...so really as many of us know...you can never have enough gear.
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dirtbag
Jun 19, 2003, 7:19 AM
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Going light is good...but sometimes desert cracks require big racks. Rock type seems to be a major issue on the size of rack required. Some of those perfect dessert rock splitters require only three or four cams...over and over and over again.
You gotta double up on a lot of sizes cowboy, or ya gonna get hosed.
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trenchdigger
Jun 19, 2003, 7:19 AM
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Ya know, it's funny... I've only just started climbing and i own nothing more than some shoes, chalk, and a harness. But I fish a lot (and have fished for a long time) and I see exactly the same thing. When I was first getting familiar with ocean and bay fishing, I'd bring a ton of gear. Stuff I knew worked and stuff I wanted to try. And I'd use a lot of it.
But as my skills improved, I found I only really used certain pieces of my arsenal. Pieces I knew worked well in a lot of situations. Pieces I was comfortable with. And I'd always throw in a few new lures to try out, but I knew what worked and I had honed my skills on, had confidence in, and could use in a variety of conditions.
I think the same holds for climbing... The more you hone your skills, the more you learn what your weapons of choice are and how to use them to their full potential. If you know how to use your favorite tools to their full potential, you won't need a rack full of gear.
Good thread...
~Adam~
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ricardol
Jun 19, 2003, 7:29 AM
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dont you just love the routes where you need to haul the big ass cams -- just for one placement on one pitch ...
hehe --
-- ricardo
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traddad
Jun 19, 2003, 1:52 PM
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Some of the places I've climbed (like the White Tanks) are walls of broken granite with few continuous or consistant cracks. I tend to carry a lot of gear on these because I don't know what the hell I'll need. On more consistant cracks (like the Forks) I might be more inclined to pare the rack down severly because I can see what and how much I need from the base of the climb. But then.....I'm the kinda guy who will, given a good stance and a big rack, slam in two equalized pieces in one spot just to know I have a bombproof placement SOMEWHERE in the pitch.
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dirtineye
Jun 19, 2003, 2:27 PM
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Climbing a single pitch chalk highway with the beta for each and every piece you need is not much of an adventure.
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traddad
Jun 19, 2003, 2:39 PM
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Troll.....ZING (sound of six foot fish taking bait).
It's always an adventure. Life's too short and there are too many time sucking commitments vying for your time to eschew a particular type of climbing for purity's sake. I LOVE "adventure climbing" but I rarely get to do it. A one pitch, rattley finger crack will have to suffice until then.
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bandycoot
Jun 19, 2003, 2:40 PM
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I try to bring 1 set of cams to the size I think I need, maybe 4 extras and one set of 9 nuts. Then I have 9 slings/draws of various length. This seems to work well for me on most multipitch climbing I've done since I started racking like this. I too have downsized the rack I carry from being way too much extra crap. It's pretty nice not carrying all that crap! It definitely came with experience though.
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pico23
Jun 19, 2003, 4:42 PM
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standard rack for me barring any beta or visible features (like a 4 in wide crack) is:
1 set cams from green alien to yellow camalot (no duplicates 10-11 cams)
1 set tricams from .5-4.0 (possible duplicates of the pink and red)
1 set of nuts from 3-13 BD
.5 set of nuts from 4-9 BD
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rockprodigy
Jun 19, 2003, 4:53 PM
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I think the better you get, the more comfortable you should be with less gear. However, on a reasonably difficult rock climb (5.10 and up for me) skimping on the rack, is not a way to save time. In that situation, I climb faster because I'm not as scared. On 5.9 and below, however, I will go with quite an anemic rack...10 cams and 10 nuts or so.
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hammer_
Jun 19, 2003, 5:30 PM
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I usally climb with almost 1 set of DDM nuts, #5,9,12 smilleys, 8 cams 0.5 to 3.5, 2 small tri cams, 1 #7 hex for luck, 1 screemer, 6 trad draws, 3 shoulder length slings and a couple rps. Although I don't lead 5.12 trad or anything this seems to work for most moderate routes.
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dirtineye
Jun 19, 2003, 5:58 PM
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(feeding traddad some line, letting him run)
Time on the rock is good time. What's your hurry? Purity is not at issue. And it ain't an adventure if you know what's coming and somebody told you exactly what pieces to take and where they go.
Besides, you bought all that gear, you should enjoy dragging it around. And placing as much of it as possible.
Climbing light is for mountaineers, and what do they know? They think freezing their fingers and toes off is great fun.
(swallow the bait, swallow it)
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floridaputz
Jun 19, 2003, 6:02 PM
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There are a lot of things to consider when racking up
1) Pitch length, natural or bolted anchors. For example, now that I have a 60m lead rope, I like to run pitches together. Of course I take more gear on my rack then. (How many times has the typical trad leader reach the belay with almost nothing left to set up the belay) Tell the truth !
2) I don't use the same gear everywhere. I.E. Looking glass N Carolina, The Gunks, have mostly horizontal gear placements so I use TCU's & FCU's. (just one example)
3) Alpine Rack. Going high, light and fast ? many runners (I always take many runners on any climb) 1 set of nuts & maybe 1 or 2 cams
But I generally like to have a little extra rather than too little, But I'm also an old fart and don't really want to die now that I can actually afford gear !
Many more situations exist that require rack changes, and many opnions that are different. I do what I like.
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traddad
Jun 19, 2003, 7:50 PM
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BAM!!! (sound of “DuPont spinner†going off next to my head)
Rock time IS good time. Don’t get me wrong, I like big racks :twisted: and after the heli-evacuation and subsequent death at the Forks a couple weeks back (due at least partially to pulled cams) I’ll probably sew up pitches like Betsy Ross. HOWEVER, after humping WAY too much gear up to Granite Mountain (Prescott) I vowed to pare my rack down before I was made an honorary Sherpa.
As for adventure…..part of the adventure is the possibility of failure. That possibility comes in one pitch AND multipitch sizes. I find it quite an adventure greasing out of a basalt off-fingers crack with the nearest bolt 40 miles east.
Glub Glub….(floating to the surface)
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tanner
Jun 19, 2003, 8:28 PM
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I use a small rack, But I think its just because I'm a poor student. I having the right gear is important for sure! I have seen a few climbs I would have loved to have done but had not enought big gear for example.
here is my Rack for Sqamish multi-pitch and craging
Cams-BD .5 & 1 (just 2 cams people)
Tricams- pinkx2 redx2 bluex1 (Oh, how I love the pink one)
nuts- BD 3-13 x2 in mid sizes ( The guy at the store gave me extra)
Lots of slings ( lots of tree's on the easy stuff)
draws- 5-10
lockers-6
nonlockers-6
Well I might break down and buy more cams
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dirtineye
Jun 19, 2003, 9:19 PM
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AHHH (the hook is set!)
I have a friend who swears sherpa is nepalese for "hey you carry this".
It is important to start out a difficult climb with as much gear as you can stand up with on your gear sling. Then, if ou can't pull a move, you can blame it on the extre weight. Carrying excessive amounts of gear , if you can get away wiht it, is a good way to impress your viewing public. WHen you climb somehting they cant' if you weigh less than they do, they say, well if I weighed ___ , then I could do that too, but then you hold out your rack and say, oh well I had this handicap. EVen better is walking up to a scrawny ssport climber and saying here hold my rakc a sec, and watching them blache as they stammer out, you carry all this up the climb? and you say, yeah, doesn't everyone?
Sew it up, yes good thinking. Need mores gear for that for sure.
Falling is not failure, it is another opportunity. Fear of falling is failure. EEK, I've been around Arno too much LOL! Seriiously, check out Arno Ilgner's new book, The Rock Warrior's Way. (end shameless plug)
Must practice catch and release....
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brutusofwyde
Jun 19, 2003, 9:40 PM
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In reply to: 1) Pitch length, natural or bolted anchors. For example, now that I have a 60m lead rope, I like to run pitches together. Of course I take more gear on my rack then. (How many times has the typical trad leader reach the belay with almost nothing left to set up the belay) Tell the truth !
The truth:
I wail and whine "NOW what do I do??"
No tag line. Not surprising, since my original plan was to recon the crux, with minimal gear.
"OFF BELAY!"
I am on a blank face just above a crux roof on Hawk Dome in southern Yosemite. Standing on a foothold. If I fall at this point, I will crater at the base of the climb 60 feet below.
Using my teeth and a free hand, I pull up enough slack to send a loop down to the ground. where Nurse Ratchet clips in some slings, some stoppers, some water and a bolt kit.
Half an hour later, clipped into a brand new bolt, I go back on belay and finish the pitch.
Gadzooks! 5.10b FA 16 June 2003
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petsfed
Jun 19, 2003, 9:59 PM
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Even for what I bring (1 set of nuts, half a set of cams, half a set of hexes) I think I bring too much. Mostly because of what I climb, I rarely place more than 5 pieces on a 100 foot pitch. I like to run it out, what can I say? The key is that for the most part, I don't protect until I think I'm going to need it (or the rope needs a rope guide). But honestly, 2 1/2 sets of cams is excessive. 1 1/2 sets of nuts is excessive. Anything more than a set of nuts and a set of cams and you are doing bigger stuff than the average weekend cragger you claim to be.
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dirtineye
Jun 19, 2003, 10:16 PM
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Double ropes RULE.
Hang on one, haul on the other. You are never really out of gear on doubles hehehe.
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brutusofwyde
Jun 19, 2003, 10:42 PM
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In reply to: Double ropes RULE. Hang on one, haul on the other. You are never really out of gear on doubles hehehe.
nothing to hang from
no place for gear
even a belay meant a groundfall
dont want to go there again
skairt
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punk
Jun 20, 2003, 3:06 AM
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Basically the more inform you are of the route specific gear the smaller the rack will be also the longer the approach is the lighter the rack gets I will say pro up to 2.5”- 3” is mandatory almost on any rack doubles on 0.4” to 2” with a dozen or so of slings QD and two double slings as a basic rack than u add/subtract more stuff as the rout dictating
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dirtineye
Jun 20, 2003, 4:38 AM
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But brutus, the original question was about getting to a belay wiht almost nothing.
Sounds like you got into a real situation wiht absolutely nothing in more ways than one. that description you gave is pretty awful-- where was it?
I have a titanium nut tool that MIGHT work as a sort of lost arrow or something in a real pinch LOL. IT even has a wide place on the butt for pounding on with your hand.
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addiroids
Jun 20, 2003, 5:38 AM
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On most climbs within my onsight ability (Tahquitz, Josh, Red Rocks, other granite places), and without much beta ("gear to 4 inches") I bring 1 set of tcu's (blue to red) and a #1 camalot to a #4 camalot, 1 set of nuts, and 1/2 set of large hexes. Add to that 8-10 slings with double biners over the shoulder (I extend most everything), and 6 free biners for belays, and I'm pretty much good to go on most anything. I have begun to totally place passive whenever possible, saving cams for cruxes, or the mandatory placement in a parallel crack. Sure this sounds like a lot to some of you, but I am in good cardio shape and have been very comfortable with this rack, even if I drop off the #4 most of the time. I also run it out on 5.7 to 5.8 (10a/b leader) and try to protect when I come across a great stopper placement, instead of waiting until I feel scared and having to spend a long time fiddling with crap just because I wanted some gear. I do run it, but it is just nice to stop and smell the placements once in a while. Keeps me fell like I'm not soloing and keeps me climbing much faster if I have a bit of gear in.
And good job Brutus. You are truely a stud.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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mark99
Jun 20, 2003, 5:50 AM
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I love having all my gear on me. Though it is heavy, makes me confident on the climb and I always know that I will need that piece of gear that I leave behind.
But really, I know most of the climbs I do, do not need all the gear brought along, but I use it for train as well. It builds up you muscle and technique for hauling large amount of gear. How to rack your gear. To get use to where all your gear is.
Then again, I like adventure climbing, where you have no knowledge of the climb and you need to take everything just in case.
Cool
Mark
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number7
Jun 25, 2003, 3:57 AM
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Bring all of your gear on every climb. Not only does it make you look cool, it makes you a stronger climber as well :D
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 25, 2003, 6:45 AM
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Sometimes bring as little gear as you can, it can help makeyou a smarter climber.
Practice the skill/luck of saving the right piece for the right place.
Adventure climbing means bringing less to me.
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jerrygarcia
Jun 25, 2003, 3:26 PM
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In reply to: I find the more I climb the less gear I take, It does not matter if I have beta or not. In the post "your rack" and others like it I see that people say they have like 20 cams, 2.5 sets of nuts, 14 shoulder slings, 4 double length, hexs, tricams, and bla bla bla.. are these people free climbing with all this gear, aiding or what?
I never take my whole rack with me on trad lead. I usually take about 8-10 cams, set of stoppers, pink/red tri-cam and #9-#11 hexes. I also only bring 8-9 slings of various sizes.
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sspssp
Jun 25, 2003, 3:51 PM
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I usually carry triple small cams, double to triple medium cams, and then large cams depends on the route. It is a large rack but it gives me lots of options for quickly protecting what I want when I want to.
I rarely place stoppers anymore. I'm working up to doing grade Vs in a day and small Aliens are so much faster to place and clean. One difficult to clean stopper can set you back 3 or 4 minutes (that's as much time as setting up a belay anchor) and even if it cleans easily it is still slower than a cam. The only time I use much passive gear is alpine climbing where light is definitely right.
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dingus
Jun 25, 2003, 4:08 PM
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There's going light and then there are the pretenders. I'm a pretender. I still tote a lighter rack than some of the younger trad climbers I see these days. For instance I only double on cams when it is specifically noted as a requirement. I see some climbers routinly hauling doubles of everything up single pitch climbs. THAT blows me away.
I know HOW to go light, but rarely do. For instance, if light is right, none of the following really belongs on a lead rack:
A single extra biner. There should be just enough to accomodate the pieces on the rack and no more.
A nut tool... the leader shouldn't need this on average.
Shoes, or any other non-climbing implement clipped to the rack or harness. You certainly don't need a pack for a one pitch trad route.
Belay device. Hey, if you were serious about going light, a biner break and a munter hitch is the warrior's way. Every ounce counts.
A bunch of incedentals, like sunscreen, lip gloss, emery board, breath spray, ibuprophen, headlamp, antibiotic ointment, tape.
And no, no food either, except for two or three packs of Gu stuffed in the pocket.
Camera is dead weight unless you make a living off the pictures you take.
What you should take:
Rope (bare minimum size and length for the job at hand)
Rack - singles of everything, no size overlap, including nut overlap with small cams. Take only one representative for each size needed.
Draws - unless there is fixed pro, draws belong on sport routes. They're too heavy for a truly light experience.
Runners - no extra biners!
Biners - wire gates, helium core... whatever. As long as they're less than 40grams each.
Ummm, what more do you need?
DMT
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sspssp
Jun 25, 2003, 4:30 PM
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In reply to: There's going light and then there are the pretenders. Ummm, what more do you need?
Well, I suppose unless you are free soloing naked, then you are carrying extra weight, right?
:D
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dingus
Jun 25, 2003, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There's going light and then there are the pretenders. Ummm, what more do you need? Well, I suppose unless you are free soloing naked, then you are carrying extra weight, right? :D
Depends upon if it's snowing or not.
DMT
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whichwayisup
Jun 25, 2003, 5:53 PM
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I carry 4-5 cams covering 1"-2 1/2", half set of large hexes, set of curved nuts, half set of stoppers, pink, red and brown tri cam, 4 shoulder length slings, 8 open runner quick draws and 16' of 7mm cordolette. It seems I only set cams about 1 per pitch and that is usually to build the anchor.
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ricardol
Jun 27, 2003, 5:19 PM
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the only time i have gotten a chance to climb light was when we did snake dike recently -- (and even then my rack was not a "light" snake dike -- since i brought some extra pieces -- just in case)
My Snake Dike Rack
6 trad-draws (triplde slings)
2 double length slings (for bolt belays)
1 cordelette - for the 3 natural anchors on the route
5 locking biners - (total)
4 loose biners
1 nut tool
6 cams (up to .75 camalot)
1 set of nuts (didn't use any of them!) -- leave these out next time
.5, 1.0, 1.5 tricam -- used these to reduce the runouts in some pitches
you could probably remove the following and still do the route safely
2 trad-draws
set of nuts
-- ricardo
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ambler
Jun 27, 2003, 5:37 PM
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I watched a hard FFA once where the leader, who didn't expect to get anywhere on his umpteenth attempt, surprised himself and pulled over the crux roof -- carrying zero gear. Fortunately he found an old fixed pin, and clipped into that with the carabiner that was holding his chalkbag. Keeping him on belay (because the pin didn't look good), the second then proceeded to throw gear at him, until the leader had caught enough to continue. Their ascent was famous, for a while.
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bandycoot
Jun 27, 2003, 5:37 PM
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Hey dingus, I think that the requirement you have for no doubles is rather limiting. If I were to go to Indian Creek you're right, I wouldn't want doubles, I'd want triples or more! this is just one example. There are many routes that instead of taking one set in a large range of cams, it is better to bring doubles in a small range of cams due to the shape/size of the crack. Other than that, I really like your recommendations. I don't know if I"m ever going to care enough to do all of the recommendations that you give on a daily basis, but when I did Resolution Arete, we went pretty light on gear. What a great climb...
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dirtineye
Jun 28, 2003, 5:14 AM
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Ambler, I've been there in a sense LOL. Went up a crux with two pieces and outclimbed em, still felt a little runout and precarious, but was lucky that I had forgotten a "good luck nut" that was on the biner with my nut tool. took it and the sling I keep on my leg loop for auto block and got a placement that allowed me to haul up the rest of the gear on the other double.
I HATE going light. It goes against my FA nature LOL. earlier this week I took a lot of abuse for dragging a number 6 friend along, they other guys were sayign over and over you won't need that , adn other less kind things, but then it just happened to go in a very nice spot! All of a sudden they were saying, hey place the boat anchor there, it looks bomber hahahaha.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 28, 2003, 5:50 AM
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Here is how I like to go light and fast for a route like the E face of Whitney or the west ridge of conness
Rope: 110 feet of 9.2 (mostly simul climbing)
1 Belay device: something that weighs 1/5 of an atc
1 petzl attache
2 locking light d
Harness: just the waistbelt of an ultralight sport harness, gf used a bowline on a coil.
two light chalkbags
7 stoppers up to a #7 bd
yellow alien
red alien
green camalot jr
15 neutrinos
8 dynema shoulder slings
1 quart of water plus a filter in a camelback pack
3 luna bars
wind/rain shells tied on our waist
climb in our approach shoes
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rickj
May 2, 2005, 5:54 AM
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In my philosophy, one should firstly ask; is my body at a good climbing weight? Fat asses need to bring pro since you will be falling, and falling hard! So now although I think wire gates are cool, it's best if I start each day with 3 miles of running. Dishonesty with yourself will kill you in climbing! I also sometimes solo to train my self control - when adrenaline wants you to lose it. As far as a standard rack; don't ever leave out a few TCU's for when the quads won't fit that finger hold. On multipitch with dangerous sections, I like to use microcams under my bomber wired stoppers - to prevent any possibility of the stopper being lifted out. Just takes a second to do this. I'd rather set a few bomber placements such as this, and run it out 40 feet, then place poor pro every 10 feet. Time is energy lost. - Rick J. - A Stoney Pointer
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jerrygarcia
May 2, 2005, 8:00 AM
Post #43 of 46
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 837
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Your confusing what people have with what people bring. There is the occasional person who likes to bring everything and weigh themselves down even though they dont realize its hindering them.
[edit] This is the second time ive posted in this thread, first was 2003....
I dont look at dates.
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korntera
May 2, 2005, 9:08 AM
Post #44 of 46
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Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 422
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Ihave a very small beginner rack(4 cams and 2 nuts, ha) but my friend has a full set of cams(10) a full set of nuts (13) a nut tool and about 6 tri cams(including a #6 and 1 huge ass hex) Plus he carries all his draws(about 15 more than he usually needs) But most of the time if it is a trad climb then i climb way below my skill level so i figure this just helps me gain strength by adding gear on.
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lucas_timmer
May 2, 2005, 11:01 AM
Post #45 of 46
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Registered: Dec 28, 2004
Posts: 562
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J_ung Once said: '' All big gear does is feed big egos''
I still love that one.
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golsen
May 3, 2005, 2:56 PM
Post #46 of 46
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Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
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Back in the early 80’s my buddy CP and I went up to climb Scruffy Band in LCC, a moderate WI4. Just as I was starting to lead the 1st pitch, this lone dude shows up. His name was P.
P said “hey, you guys sure you got a big enough rack”, talking down to us because we had 4 ice screws and he was going to solo the route next door. Now, I am not the most experienced ice climber, but that day there was about 2 feet of new snow and it was very warm. There are parts of those climbs that go over granite slabs and the ice under the new snow was more like slush than ice.
The climb went pretty easy and as I belayed CP up to me I monitored P’s progress. I looked over and he was nearly topping out on the 50 meter climb next door. His axes were planted on the slushy slabs. One second he was there and the next he was gone. I saw him at the bottom of the climb. I yelled to CP and he was nearly to me so he cruised up and we hurriedly set up a rappel. We got down to P within minutes. He was hanging in there pretty good. CP went to get help and I stayed with P to try and keep him warm and stable and awake.
P had two broken legs, possible spinal injuries and trauma to his head. All in all he kept it together very well. “I am sure glad you guys are here, it would have been a long crawl out of here!” Yes it would have been a bad crawl over the Little Cottonwood Canyon creek and through the woods. P ended up in the hospital for a very long time but climbed a lot in the City later on in the 80’s.
Moral of the story is some guys carry more than others. Don’t diss those who carry more since they might end up saving your ass.
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