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climbingbum
Jul 14, 2003, 3:36 PM
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I climbed a multipitch 5.8 alpine climb yesterday. Many of the pitches were rope-stretchers with roughly 3 pieces of moderate-to-sh!tty pro per length. Granted it was an easy climb, I still consider it runout in spots. The topo made no reference to the unprotectable nature of the climb. On the other hand, I have friends that consider 10 feet between bolts as a "scary runout". When do you feel a pitch is run? -J
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evoltobmilc
Jul 14, 2003, 3:44 PM
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If I can't clip one of my two single length runners on my harness to a bolt at all times it's runout. NOT!! First Flatiron is runout- 60m pitches with 2 or 3 placements possible. Really though, it depends on the area, the type of climbing, and the difficulty. the First is slab, and not too tough, on the other hand a route I did the other day was vertical pseudo-crack, and I was 12 feet above my last nut when I got my next piece in. My buddy commented, "nice lead- sorta runout there, eh?" It was. The situation I describe above exists! NEXT TO TWO (2) CRACKS!!!! That gets me more than anything I've ever seen before. Oh, in case you were wondering, I've never been back to Shelf Road since that day when I climbed the gorgeous protectible crack with bolts every 40 inches next to it. Makes me sick.
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kevlar
Jul 14, 2003, 4:02 PM
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6" more than you would like to fall? :D
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alpinestylist
Jul 14, 2003, 4:19 PM
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anytime the corner is twisted off my baggy I have definetly "run out"
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kyhangdog
Jul 14, 2003, 4:31 PM
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If I'm getting sketched...it's run-out!
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apollodorus
Jul 14, 2003, 4:56 PM
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Usually, guidebooks call it runout if there is 40 feet, or so, between pieces at one or more sections. If the going is easy, even a full rope doesn't feel runout. It feels like class 4 scrambling.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 14, 2003, 4:58 PM
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It totaly depends on the type of and dificulty of the climbing as well as how clean the falls are. A 10 foot runout over a nasty ankle breaker ledge wit hard thin moves is more run out than 40ft of easy slab or 20 ft of overhanging juggy face with a clean fall.
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fanederhand
Jul 14, 2003, 5:13 PM
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I don't think that difficulty has anything to do with it. It is a simple factor of fall potential. If you cant place gear and you have a long fall. That is a larger fall potential. Simply put the larger the fall potential the more it is run out. If you fall and hit the rock, wether it be the ground or a belay ledge it does not matter if the route was 5.3 or 5.10. If you cant set pro to protect from a fall that has potential to cause an impact on the rock then it is run out. Actually run out starts from the point you go past your pro. We don't start calling it run out until the fall potential becomes a potential for harm. Once again, fall potential not how hard the route is.
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trillium
Jul 14, 2003, 5:31 PM
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John Long states simply, runout is the distance between two points of protection.
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fredbob
Jul 14, 2003, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: I don't think that difficulty has anything to do with it. It is a simple factor of fall potential. ..... Once again, fall potential not how hard the route is. If a route is rated 11a and the crux is reasonably well protected, but it has a section of 5.4 that is run out for 30 feet (or even more), is the route run out? Certainly not, and it would not get an R rating in a guidebook either. So difficulty does have something to do with it; but it is the relative difficulty of the run out section to the difficulty of the route.
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sspssp
Jul 14, 2003, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: I climbed a multipitch 5.8 alpine climb yesterday. -J Alpine climb about says it all. Four decent pieces of gear per alpine pitch is about the most I expect. When considering alpine climbs, I'll drop at least a full number grade from what I would usually lead.
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petsfed
Jul 14, 2003, 7:58 PM
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Difficulty has everything to do with it. As was already stated, 90 feet of 5.0 is nowhere near as runout as 40 feet of 5.6, which has nothing on 20 feet of 5.11. I know from experience on the first two. When you're nearly tweaking from fear, your last piece is by necessity 20 feet below you and the ground 10 feet beyond that, with the climbing near your limit, that's runout. If you've got a long clean fall if you pitch, with good pro behind you, you shouldn't be afraid to fly. As was said, runout is when you start to sketch, never before. If you can cruise 5.13 solo, then runout is not really an issue right? For us mere mortals, 1 pro-less pitch of 5.8 can certainly get your blood pumping, eh?
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howdidshedothat
Jul 14, 2003, 8:40 PM
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run for me is 20-30 ft w/o pro (difficulty pending of course) 8)
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alpinerockfiend
Jul 14, 2003, 11:12 PM
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As some have stated earlier, runout has more to do with an injury factor than the space between your pro. At least that's the best way I've found to judge it, and that's what I use when giving my FAs a runout rating. Many guidebook authors differ on this point. For example, a .10a sport route that offers a potential ankle-breaker fall to talus from 20 ft. but is very well protected afterwards is given an R rating, even if that first 20 feet is only 5.6. Other authors would not mention the runout, assuming that somebody on a .10a sport route would be comfortable on .6R. So it just depends... Get familiar with the style of the guide and the area.
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grigriese
Jul 15, 2003, 12:18 AM
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In reply to: John Long states simply, runout is the distance between two points of protection. That sounds about right to me!
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evoltobmilc
Jul 15, 2003, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: I don't think that difficulty has anything to do with it. It is a simple factor of fall potential. I think that difficulty does have to do with fall potential- there is much less potential that I will fall on 5.2 than 5.12. Therefore, if I am 100 ft out from my last pro on a pitch where there is no possibility (potential) that I will fall the fall potential is less than if I'm 20 feet out on with 5.9 moves ahead of me.
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dino
Jul 15, 2003, 12:46 AM
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When I look down and say, "Oh sh*t! I sure wish I had another piece in." its too run out.
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ihuang
Jul 15, 2003, 6:25 AM
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What's the biggest whipper you guys have taken without pulling the pro out?
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fanederhand
Jul 15, 2003, 10:19 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't think that difficulty has anything to do with it. It is a simple factor of fall potential. I think that difficulty does have to do with fall potential- there is much less potential that I will fall on 5.2 than 5.12. Therefore, if I am 100 ft out from my last pro on a pitch where there is no possibility (potential) that I will fall the fall potential is less than if I'm 20 feet out on with 5.9 moves ahead of me. I guess terminology has a lot to do with this subject. What evoltobmilc is referring to is "fall probability". "Fall potential" the way I was using it meant the distance you would fall not the likelihood of falling. The likelihood of someone falling is a statistical function because even the best of climbers could have a fall on a lower grad climb due to some unexpected thing happening, like a seemingly bomber hold breaking. I like the simple explanation made by one commenter that runout is the distance between set pro and the next set of pro. Another issue related to this is a climb that has great pro everywhere on the climb. If a leader chooses not to put in pro is that a run out climb? No, the actual physical climb is not run out but the leader "is" running the climb out because he felt comfortable doing so. A big difference between that and a route that physically does not have anyplace to set pro!! Hey -- this is a great thread. Climb on and climb safe so we can meet at the crag another day!!
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fanederhand
Jul 15, 2003, 10:52 AM
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In reply to: What's the biggest whipper you guys have taken without pulling the pro out? There was a long thread on that subject a couple of months ago. But anyway I took a good 30 foot whipper and almost decked because of it. I had placed two pieces very close to each other thank goodness one pulled the other held thus I am able to answer your thread today. One thing a lot of folks forget about on climbing is that if you take a fall you fall farther than 2x the distance from the last pro (if your pro holds) you have rope stretch as well. Climb on and climb safe my friend. :D
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dirtineye
Jul 15, 2003, 1:28 PM
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In reply to: What's the biggest whipper you guys have taken without pulling the pro out? 20 feet or so. Many times.
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rhu
Jul 23, 2003, 10:49 PM
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I'm always runout! :roll:
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cloudbreak
Jul 23, 2003, 11:26 PM
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In reply to: anytime the corner is twisted off my baggy I have definetly "run out" Doood that is classic funny!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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vegastradguy
Jul 23, 2003, 11:30 PM
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i consider it run out if i'm looking down and i know i'll break something if i fall. however, that being said, i'm much more likely to run it out (and be comfortable)on a 5.5-5.6 than i am a 5.8-5.9. however, there's always an exception to that rule.
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ricardol
Jul 24, 2003, 12:26 AM
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snake dike is runout .. 75' between pro .. -- ricardo
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renobdarb
Jul 24, 2003, 12:45 AM
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In reply to: What do you consider runout??? The Needles in the Black Hills of South Dakota... anyone who has climbed there knows what i'm talking about... scary as s**t!!! -brad
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climbhigher
Aug 6, 2003, 2:18 AM
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When i feel scared and all shaky inside and say to myself holy shit i better put a piece in before i die!!! otherwise it's just the distance between Pro. Keep it solid and don't rely on one piece when there's a chance of hitting the ground or a ledge if your pro blows. That's my 2 cents. Cheers.
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redpoint73
Aug 6, 2003, 2:25 AM
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Seems that runout ratings are given very conservatively to slab routes. I've done a few near or full rope length (60m, no less!) pitches with no gear. But they were not considered runout by the guidebooks. What the hell???
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alpinerockfiend
Aug 6, 2003, 1:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What do you consider runout??? The Needles in the Black Hills of South Dakota... anyone who has climbed there knows what i'm talking about... scary as s**t!!! I think the Needles and many other areas in the US were developed conservatively, with all bolts placed on lead. Conservative bolt placements lead to conservation with the "R" rating. In the City of Rocks, it's pretty standard to have 40+ feet of 5.6-7 terrain at the top of a harder route with no pro at all. None of these routes are given "R" ratings, and the runouts are rarely mentioned. But travel to a rap-bolted sport area such as Sinks Canyon or Wild Iris and a route that is a bit sporty between placements is given an "R". An interesting side note: Paul Piana has written a few guidebooks in his day. One of his first was Touch the Sky, a guide to the Needles in SD. In this guide, he praises the traditional ethic in which the area was developed and claims that anyone who rap-bolts risks serious harm from the local climbers and will most definitely see their route chopped. Years later, he wrote Sport Climbs of Sinks Canyon, a guide to the classic sport area near Lander, WY. In his section on route development, he states that all routes should be rap-bolted and cleaned with the utmost care! An interesting fellow, indeed. But...... It's all about the character of the area.
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labmonkey
Aug 6, 2003, 1:48 PM
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When you lookd down at your last pro, and your boys retreat to somewhere around you esophagus, that's runout, IMHO.
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rrrADAM
Aug 6, 2003, 1:59 PM
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>20' between pieces on hard stuff.
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texasclimber
Aug 6, 2003, 2:10 PM
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In reply to: It totaly depends on the type of and dificulty of the climbing as well as how clean the falls are. A 10 foot runout over a nasty ankle breaker ledge wit hard thin moves is more run out than 40ft of easy slab or 20 ft of overhanging juggy face with a clean fall. So true. In general though, I think run out is if your feet are way above the last bolt (if sport climbing) and you say to yourself that there should be another bolt where your feet are. Potrero Chico taught me about run out! :shock:
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alpinerock
Aug 8, 2003, 2:41 AM
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If the fall is X or R rated I consider it too runout, on easy stuff I can go 30 ft without feeling scared, but once I get into 9's it scares the heck out of me.
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mreardon
Aug 8, 2003, 5:42 PM
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Runout is the same as highball bouldering, it all depends on your comfort level and the pain potential.
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veggieclimber
Aug 8, 2003, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What do you consider runout??? The Needles in the Black Hills of South Dakota... anyone who has climbed there knows what i'm talking about... scary as s**t!!! -brad No shit, I think your definition of runout changes with where you climb too. I've been climbing the old stuff in the Black Hills all summer. Went up to Spearfish canyon with my climbing partner's friends, there was ten feet between two bolts and they said, "This is a little runout". We just looked at each other because that is average if not short between bolts at Rushmore and needles. All depends on what you have climbed before.
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thegreytradster
Aug 8, 2003, 10:04 PM
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When I was in my 20's runout was "I might not pull this off, and if I don't I'll die" Later in life it became "There's a small possibility I might not pull this off and it'll hurt for a loooonnnng time"
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triznut
Aug 8, 2003, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: anytime the corner is twisted off my baggy I have definetly "run out" :lol: :lol: :lol:
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venezuela
Aug 16, 2003, 8:03 PM
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I didn't read the other three pages of the thread, 'cause I'm just about to leave home.... to my understanding, a run-out is when a fall has a very high probability of resulting on a physical injury...this means that protection 20 feet apart, but with a "clean" fall is not a run-out. I believe that when a route has a run-out it's given an R on it's grade. i.e: 5.8r. but, I'm not 100% sure....when I get back, I'll read the whole thread. If I'm wrong, please point it out.
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alwaysforward
Aug 17, 2003, 2:16 AM
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Dude, i think the question was how far do YOU have to be above a bolt before you're gripped. I think most posters are aware of 'R'.
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crackaddict
Aug 17, 2003, 2:50 AM
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When you hit that "pucker point!" After your last piece is below your feet. So when ever that is. That is when you can say its run out. Or after you climbed 10' past your last piece and you are sketching. You reach for that only piece that will work here. But then realized that you have used it already. You look up and realize that your next chance for pro is 15 more feet. What do you do? Run it out!
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adeptus
Aug 17, 2003, 7:43 AM
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On slabs runout would be one piece per pitch, unless you can hit a ledge in a fall. I find that even on slabs near my limit I don't mind to do runouts, because a fall would be more like a tumble down the rock rather that a powerful shockload like on vertical climbs.
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dbrayack
Aug 17, 2003, 12:22 PM
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Oh, its run out whenever I realize that I have to change my depends
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rocknut1
Aug 19, 2003, 3:52 AM
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15 feet , unless the holds are good. (or your only 12 feet above the ground.)
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ptone
Aug 19, 2003, 5:34 AM
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I guess I blend the risk factor with the head factor. But that all boils back to risk...if your head goes, your body might soon follow! It's runout for me if a fall will result in injury no matter what the belayer does. It's runout too if when I look down and can't make out my last piece way below I get gripped, and suddenly find vision tunnelling, with my heart pounding loud in my ears and my death grip feeling weak as a kitten...leaning in, forehead on the rock, breathe, in through the nose, out through the mouth... :wink: p
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joegoesup
Aug 19, 2003, 11:23 AM
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For me it is anything that could result in a 30 ft fall or more.
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adamtd
Sep 6, 2003, 4:55 AM
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The term run-out is technically teh distance between two pieces of pro. When a climb is run-out, it usually mean that teh pro is spaced out pretty far apart. I've found that it all depends on teh consequences of teh fall. At Stoen Mt., NC, it's common for bolts to be 40' apart, but a fall there is nothing more than sliding down a slab with little consequence. On a shelfy wall where you're likely to deck out on a ledge, 5 feet might be runout. it's subjective. My partner says I run it out all the time, but he places his pro every six feet, which is over kill for me.
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herm
Sep 7, 2003, 6:22 AM
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Run out is a state of mind 8)
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onbelay_osu
Sep 8, 2003, 8:02 PM
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well in oklahoma runout RN=normal runout is about 5-11' and R= 11'-20' but the best is RX which is a 2 pitch sport climb ~300ft. with 4 bolts and two of them are for your belay!!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: CRAZY check out Quartz mtn. it is on S wall
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sharpender
Sep 8, 2003, 8:23 PM
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I don't know the name and I've never done the route, but I understand there is a face climb at the Needles in CA that goes a 60 meter pitch with out a single piece of pro to the belay. That's run out! 8)
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jtreelizard
Sep 8, 2003, 8:36 PM
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When I start to whimper or cry, it indicates that I have most likely run it out.
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melekzek
Sep 8, 2003, 8:40 PM
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In reply to: When I start to whimper or cry, it indicates that I have most likely run it out. word :shock:
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