|
b_fost
Aug 25, 2003, 4:58 PM
Post #51 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 1268
|
xanx wrote:
In reply to: either have the balls to work it on lead (and risk a very probable death if u don't onsight it), or bolt it and go sport.
When's the last time you climbed 5.14 trad? no? that's what i thought, you tool! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
xanx wrote:
In reply to: his hardest flash is V9, which translates to about 5.13c/d or so, so your 5.14 trads migh take him a few tries).
lol. i hope even you realize how stupid that sounds. :P
oh, and i don't do hard trad, so i don't have any room to talk about this, but at least i don't think i do :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Aug 25, 2003, 5:45 PM
Post #52 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
In reply to: It feels different and I like it better on lead. I am happy with clean TR ascents but that doesn't mean that I don't wish to lead it afterwards.
OK, that's fine if you enjoy leading the route, but then afterwards do you spray about how bold it was for you to lead the route...and how it is better style than bolting the route? That's what I have a problem with. It seems to me, that the instant you TR the route, you remove the adventure. To then go back and lead it to re-instate danger (but not uncertainty) is an attempt to re-instate the adventure, but there is no adventure without uncertainty.
In reply to: You're also forgetting that a big part of the roots of climbing is a disdain for bolting in general and a reverance for boldness.
I haven't forgotten that, I understand it completely...however I don't understand the difference between placing a bolt on rappel and practicing moves on rappel. What is the difference...please tell me.
Rap-bolting is readily condemned...but why is TR-rehearsing a route not equally condemned?
The fact is, that they have realized that "disdain for bolting" has limits. They have reached the limits of what can be done without bolts, but they want to make their mark, so they invented a new style, which seems bold, but is really just a party trick.
|
|
|
|
|
holmeslovesguinness
Aug 25, 2003, 5:56 PM
Post #53 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 548
|
In reply to: The fact is, that they have realized that "disdain for bolting" has limits. They have reached the limits of what can be done without bolts, but they want to make their mark, so they invented a new style, which seems bold, but is really just a party trick.
Hmmm.... climbing super hard X rated routes, even after rehearsing them on top rope, doesn't qualify as bold in your book? You must be one bad mofo :P
|
|
|
|
|
hellclimber
Aug 25, 2003, 6:14 PM
Post #54 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 205
|
In reply to: In reply to: It feels different and I like it better on lead. I am happy with clean TR ascents but that doesn't mean that I don't wish to lead it afterwards. OK, that's fine if you enjoy leading the route, but then afterwards do you spray about how bold it was for you to lead the route...and how it is better style than bolting the route?
I might have sprayed to friends before. Try to avoid it but sometimes, being proud of my accomplishments, I have to tell someone. We try to encourage each other so none of the people I climb with seems to mind a little bit of spraying between friends. I would never say it is better or worse style. It is just different, and yes, a bit more dangerous on lead.
In reply to: That's what I have a problem with. It seems to me, that the instant you TR the route, you remove the adventure. To then go back and lead it to re-instate danger (but not uncertainty) is an attempt to re-instate the adventure, but there is no adventure without uncertainty.
In reply to: In reply to: You're also forgetting that a big part of the roots of climbing is a disdain for bolting in general and a reverance for boldness. I haven't forgotten that, I understand it completely...however I don't understand the difference between placing a bolt on rappel and practicing moves on rappel. What is the difference...please tell me. Rap-bolting is readily condemned...but why is TR-rehearsing a route not equally condemned? The fact is, that they have realized that "disdain for bolting" has limits. They have reached the limits of what can be done without bolts, but they want to make their mark, so they invented a new style, which seems bold, but is really just a party trick.
Well, the quote you answered here wasn't mine. Please don't put words in my mouth, although I agree with the words you put in my mouth this time ;)
hellclimber
|
|
|
|
|
old_school
Aug 25, 2003, 7:28 PM
Post #55 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2001
Posts: 259
|
Ok, I think we can all agree xanx isnt a trad climber and also doesnt know how to ask nicely, maybe he skipped kindergarten or something, i dont know. This kid needs to just calm down and admit his faults, I know a lot of people who will argue like this, all it does is bring trouble. Also saying how good your friend is at bouldering does not equate to being good at trad, I know this for a fact mainly because you cant just bail off the trad route onto a soft pad, stare at the holds for a while and start over.
I guess my point is that you just need to be nicer when asking a question and when asking for rides, I know that I've had many a climber tag along with me, once on a trip to Devils Tower. And climbers arent assholes, you wanna meet some just go snowboarding.
btw- if climbing is just to straining, you could always take up tennis.
|
|
|
|
|
on_sight_man
Aug 26, 2003, 6:42 AM
Post #56 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2002
Posts: 628
|
In reply to: It seems to me, that the instant you TR the route, you remove the adventure. To then go back and lead it to re-instate danger (but not uncertainty) is an attempt to re-instate the adventure, but there is no adventure without uncertainty.
I disagree that there is NO adventure without uncertainty. There's a difference between placing a piece and clipping a bolt. It's harder to place a piece safely (takes longer). That's why we got the hubub about Beth Roddens "trad lead" that one time with pre-placed gear. It was rightfully pointed out that that wasn't as hard as if she'd placed the gear herself (which I think she went back and did...)
The reason you (I) toprope a hard/scary lead is precisely because you're trying to push into levels that you're uncomfortable with and want SOME reassurance that it can be done BY YOU. It's not the same as a bold onsight clearly. But it's not the same as a sport red-point either. And it's useful, and possibly dangerous and worthy of praise too.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Aug 26, 2003, 11:32 PM
Post #57 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
Wow, such a civil discussion....
I see your points of view.
The whole "headpointing" thing seems kinda dumb to me, but I agree it is bolder than just TR'ing, I just think it is "manufactured" boldness.
To each his own....
|
|
|
|
|
ptone
Aug 26, 2003, 11:39 PM
Post #58 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 5, 2003
Posts: 350
|
rockprodigy wrote "...to brag to your friends, thats why..." and some other kind of elitist (defensive?) stuff about climbing.
In answer to your jibe:
I climb for myself. I'm new to trad, and when pushing my limits sometimes I'll work on a climb on toprope before trying to lead it. It does take some of the edge off the intensity I suppose, but if I otherwise couldn't have climbed it, then I don't know what I'm missing do I? And tell the truth, I'm learning lots from doing it, and still get plenty sketched at times placing gear on harder climbs--even if I know I can probably send it, it feels uncertain as hell. To be honest, in a moment of weakness I might show some pride over leading something to a friend, but it wouldn't be to look all mighty, it'd be cause I felt like I was getting a little better. My onsight level is slowly going up, which feels good because it means I'm getting closer to being able to go to stange new unclimbed (by me at least) places, not because I compare it to anyone else (I'm too old and new and weak for that to work anyhow). And there are still unlimited numbers of climbs ahead of me, god(S) willing.
Here I am, defending myself...stupid yeah?
Does this all make me less of a climber?
Who do I have to prove what to in order to have someone I'll never meet approve of me though I'll never know it?
I really don't care. I just like to climb stuff.
Ethics to me is about our interpersonal exchanges--from action to communication--how we treat each other. Fairness and honesty come to mind.
Just because one isn't using numbers doesn't mean one's not spraying all over the place--judging others and dismissing them cause they don't meet one's particular individual standards is the same kind of ego inflating shite as dissing them cause they climb a letter below.
What was it that guy said?
..Let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone...
(all for the sake of argument, as I'm as guilty as anyone of all the standard issue human weaknesses, as well as a few experimental ones of my own!)
peace,
-p
|
|
|
|
|
ep
Aug 27, 2003, 2:52 AM
Post #59 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 88
|
rockprodigy wrote: In reply to: Rap-bolting is readily condemned...but why is TR-rehearsing a route not equally condemned?
It should be pretty obvious to you, rp. The former involves the placing of bolts, an act that affects all of us. It therefore falls under the category of climbing ethics. The latter is just an individual ascent, important to that person and perhaps his/her friends, but not to the climbing community as a whole. It is simply a question of that person's style.
Ethics versus style, that's the difference. Climb in whatever style you want, but if your actions have an effect on everybody else, then it isn't only your business anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
holmeslovesguinness
Aug 27, 2003, 4:27 AM
Post #60 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 548
|
While headpointing isn't quite as bold as an onsight, it's still pretty ballsy. In a fairly recent article of climbing there was a one page story about some gritstone climber who had finally lead some crazy hard x-rated route after working on it for quite some time. In the article he states that he was only able to send it like 1 time in 10 on toprope before he tried to lead it, and that he spent a year doing specific stretches just to add an extra inch to his reach to pull the crux.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Aug 27, 2003, 9:23 PM
Post #61 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
Climbing magazine will print whatever they think will sell a mag. This headline would not sell mags:
"Brits run out of stuff to climb, so now they're leading the old TR's"
But this aparently hooks some people:
"Psycho Brit headpoints sick new testpiece!!!"
The fact that climbing magazine hypes it, doesn't mean anything to me.
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Aug 27, 2003, 9:45 PM
Post #62 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: Climbing magazine will print whatever they think will sell a mag. This headline would not sell mags: "Brits run out of stuff to climb, so now they're leading the old TR's" But this aparently hooks some people: "Psycho Brit headpoints sick new testpiece!!!" The fact that climbing magazine hypes it, doesn't mean anything to me.
Thats a funny way of lookin' at it!
I dunno. TR or following a route you're not "ready" to lead. Its commonly done (except perhaps by folks full of rocket sauce who can't find a partner better than they, which is usually not a problem for me!).
Sure, way different than an onsight ascent, but, there's a bunch of climbs I've done that I did on TR or followed because I thought I wasn't ready to lead them. Then, when I did finally lead them, it meant something to me, way more than just another TR workout.
One example from my not-so-reckless youth I can think of was "Extreme Unction". Easy enough to set a TR on. Or to follow. But, I didn't lead that bugger for the longest time. When I did, was, "whew", finally got that out of my system. Yeah, I had it dialed (not too frigged though). But, still, placin' pro and leadin' it was WAY different to ME than another TR ascent. Heck, I was proud. I mighta even sprayed about it.
Now, I'd never say or even try to imply that I led it onsite.
Mike, you've seen "True Grit", the climbing movie? Pretty proud headpoints there and mucho diff between a TR and leading. Big penalty points in some cases. So, big difference, methinks.
As long as there's honesty, its all climbing...
Interesting...
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
holmeslovesguinness
Aug 27, 2003, 10:42 PM
Post #63 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 548
|
In reply to: Climbing magazine will print whatever they think will sell a mag. The fact that climbing magazine hypes it, doesn't mean anything to me.
Good for you. I'm sure all those gritstone climbers are crying a river even as we speak :lol:
Personally I couldn't care less either, but that example was simply a refutation of your claim that there was no 'boldness' in the headpointing style. But whatever.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Aug 28, 2003, 5:03 AM
Post #64 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
I don't think there is no boldness in headpointing...err...I do think there is boldness? double-negative in their... anyway...
What annoys me is the hype to the point of giving it a new name!
People have been tr'ing routes forever, practicing moves, then sending...it's called.....
SPORT CLIMBING!
Why can't they say that they redpointed such and such route, after rehearsing it? Why do they need a new name for this "new" style?
I'll tell you why...because it sells mags, attracts sponsors, etc., etc..
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Aug 28, 2003, 4:04 PM
Post #65 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: I don't think there is no boldness in headpointing...err...I do think there is boldness? double-negative in their... anyway... What annoys me is the hype to the point of giving it a new name! People have been tr'ing routes forever, practicing moves, then sending...it's called..... SPORT CLIMBING! Why can't they say that they redpointed such and such route, after rehearsing it? Why do they need a new name for this "new" style? I'll tell you why...because it sells mags, attracts sponsors, etc., etc..
And...because its (my opinion) WAY different than yer standard garden variety sports climbing!
"Headpointing" is a good term for "it". And, if "it" creates a buzz and sells mags or gear, then bully for the industry.
Used to be just referred to as "runout", "R" or "X" rated. Or "adult". But, I likes the term "headpoint" as it seems to more describe what up.
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
sammatt
Aug 28, 2003, 4:33 PM
Post #66 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 45
|
I don't think "headpointing" is a creation of the climbing industry. That's a pretty short-sighted view.
In England, they've agreed not to bolt the gritstone. Climbers there can play the game three ways -- go ground-up, onsight; headpoint; or just toprope. What you're failing to consider here is that a headpoint first ascent often paves the way for an onsight later. Because the route has been climbed, beta is known, and the grips are clean, the style can later be bettered.
In America, various areas are becoming "bolt-free" because of the wishes of land managers. Instead of just writing those areas off, you can use headpointing tactics to keep new-route activity going. Or you can just toprope. Or you can just go elsewhere, to whatever poxy little sport crag happens to be available, and write the whole "headpointing" game off as contrived and lame.
Some people enjoy headpointing, and I've not known any of them to force that style down other people's throats. I've "headpointed" as well, and whether someone else goes up to those routes and leads them onsight, just topropes them, or does them in the same style is totally immaterial. I would hope, actually, that other climbers better my style. These routes are almost always in areas where you aren't allowed to bolt, so I'm not really stepping on anyone's toes.
Headpointing is just another way of putting up routes, a mental game that climbers can play, or not. If you choose not to play it, why slag it off? I figure as long as the first ascentionist comes clean about their tactics, and gets the word out that they rehearsed the line and that it may not be safe as an onsight lead, then no harm done.
|
|
|
|
|
rockprodigy
Aug 28, 2003, 5:57 PM
Post #67 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
|
Why not call it a redpoint?
Please enlighten me...the only reason I can think of that you would go to the trouble of inventing a new name is draw attention to yourself, and your ascent...to underscore how bold you are.
Is there a difference between a "headpoint" and a "redpoint" that I'm not seeing here?...other than the "headpoint" is supposedly more dangerous?
|
|
|
|
|
degaine
Aug 28, 2003, 6:19 PM
Post #68 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 491
|
Headpoint has two worthy distinctions that we should note:
a) Different from a redpoint, a headpoint indicates having climbed the route on toprope, whereas when redpointing a route, a person may have climbed the route on lead during each prior try. Semantics aside, classifying a route as a headpoint provides an honest and granular description of the climber's style building up to a lead send.
b) Headpointing, as far as its practice on British Gritstone, is extremely environmentally friendly. Never travelled to the UK to climb on Gritstone, but if I understand correctly, most toprope the routes using either gear or a tree, no bolts (please correct me if I am wrong), and then lead the route on gear, once again with no bolts.
Either way SAMMAT correctly states,"Headpointing is just another way of putting up routes, a mental game that climbers can play, or not."
If someone chooses to send a route via headpoint, and does not hurt anyone else or the environment, why should anyone else care? As far as calling attention to oneself, as others have indicated, wouldn't the creation of labels and terminology for other styles serve the same purpose?
|
|
|
|
|
sammatt
Aug 29, 2003, 3:19 AM
Post #69 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 45
|
You could call a headpoint a redpoint, and that would be fine too. It is the same difference, and the net result -- a clean lead without falling -- is also the same.
Headpointing specifically refers to redpointing a gear-only route (generally) after rehearsing it on toprope.
Redpointing refers to leading a route (generally a sport route) after rehearsing it by hangdogging, either bolt-to-bolt, or, again, on toprope.
The term headpointing was coined by the Brits because the head, and not just the fingers and feet, also comes into play. So the main difference, then, is in how you work out the moves -- whether on lead or on toprope, which seems pretty academic to me.
There's probably about as much glory in headpointing as there is in sending a hard sport route -- which is to say not much. If you get some personal satisfaction out of this style, then great. If you don't, then consider why headpointing bothers you so much.
|
|
|
|
|
kalcario
Sep 1, 2003, 5:54 AM
Post #70 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 1601
|
* In America, various areas are becoming "bolt-free" because of the wishes of land managers. Instead of just writing those areas off, you can use headpointing tactics to keep new-route activity going. Or you can just toprope.*
Curious to know which areas in the U.S. are bolt free because of l.m.'s, and how, if the top is not accessible, headpointing tactics can be adopted, and how trampling and eroding the top of the cliff to set up top ropes is environmentally or visually preferable to pencil-sized holes in the rock.
|
|
|
|
|
drkodos
Sep 1, 2003, 7:13 AM
Post #71 of 71
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 2935
|
Mr Xanx:
Sorry for my late arrival to the bashing....
Please refrain from formulating any original or independent ideas.
You are only causing yourself and others harm.
All expression must be in the form of pre-packaged pablam that is easily digestable and goes down smoothly. Any perceived threat to the order of rigid thinking will be punished swiftly, and harshly.
You have obviously not spent enough time in one of our venerated learning institutions because you are displaying the folly of independent thought. Please cease this madness.
I warn because I care.
Next time, before venturing forth with an idea, you may find it helpful to drive three rusty nails into a 2 X 4 and pummel your frontal lobes until you loose all interest in non-conforming thought.
That is all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
