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moeman


Nov 20, 2003, 10:20 PM
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Buying a rack
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Ok, so I know this thread has been done countless times, but I'm about to plunk down a crapload of money on trad gear, so I want some advice. Also, I've decided to just go all out with this; for the first time ever, I have $1000+ that I can use for whatever I want, and I've decided to get something useful (a rack) before it slowly starts to seep away for useless junk. So far i've bought almost nothing, but heres what I'm planning to buy:

PRO
6 Camalots: sizes 0.5-3 (maybe 3.5?)
6 TCU's: sizes 00-4
12 Huevos: full set (1-13)
2 Tricams: Pink, Red

Other Stuff
15 Draws (shoulder length tripled, BD spectra slings and Enduro biners)
Bluewater 10.2 mm 60m dry rope
2 cordellettes
Black Diamond Half Dome helmet
Gear Sling
Nut tool

So, what'd ya think? I will be climbing some long multi-pitch in Seneca this coming spring, if that helps any. Comments? Should I getmore nuts and tricams? Less cams? Hexes? Also, what so I need doubles in?


robmcc


Nov 20, 2003, 10:37 PM
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Check the ratings on those TCUs. I smooshed one at Seneca. The small ones are only good to 4.4 kN, IIRC. It was the blue or purple one, I don't remember. Tomorrow I'm replacing it with an alien or micro-camalot, which cover the same range but with about 2x the rating.

I had hexes for Seneca and liked 'em. I'll tell you in 2 weeks if I still like 'em there. I'm sure I will. Never used cams over #2 at Seneca. I have the 3 and 4 now, so I'll see if I use 'em.

I didn't have doubles of anything and it seemed to work well enough.


cedk


Nov 20, 2003, 11:01 PM
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I've never climbed at Seneca but generally speaking for free climbing if I had my choice between carrying the 2 smallest TCUs or another #1 or #2 camalot and 4 or 5 medium to large sized hexes I'd take the camalot and the hexes.


climberjim


Nov 20, 2003, 11:08 PM
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hey insted of the tcu's u should go with the aliens they are the best out there for small sizes and up to like 2 inchesif u got the set of camalots and a set of aliens instead of the tcu's then thats more than enough. Aliens are my most favorite of all cams .......... make sure to get plenty of webbing and slings and lockers to but hope this helps


charley


Nov 20, 2003, 11:10 PM
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I use hexes alot at seneca. That may be cause the old guys that taught me to lead didn't use mechanicals much. I also trust the hex more. Alot of the ppl I climb with have an extra half set of nuts usually different brand.


braaaaaaaadley


Nov 20, 2003, 11:14 PM
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Dont buy bd spectra slings or the enduro's for that matter. Buy sewn slings made of climbers spec nylon and pair them up with ovals to make a trad draw. A lot cheaper and more durable than the spectra/ enduro combo. I have some spectra slings from bd and they frey awfully quickly and are expensive compared to the nylon ones that are a lot cheaper.


cgranite


Nov 20, 2003, 11:14 PM
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Aliens are have mushy trigger and the cam heads stop responding to the retraction after awhile. the TCU's are bomber and durable. they also have cam stops so the won't invert like the aliens. Go with the TCU's, their great.


Partner one900johnnyk


Nov 20, 2003, 11:20 PM
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if you want to climb a lot of the tens at seneca i would recommend some micronuts as well. don't forget the extra biners you will need. i also recommend replacing at least one of those cordellettes with a webolette... have fun, there's nothing better than buying gear. i just copped a set of tcu's and they are pretty sweet..


madmax


Nov 20, 2003, 11:36 PM
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I favor the Frankenstein rack: some of everything. Every cam has its pluses and negatives.

While I love Aliens, they definitely deteriorate faster than TCUs. The micro Camalots are really nice but expensive.

You need to find a "bro deal." For $1,000, you should be able to get more gear.


caughtinside


Nov 20, 2003, 11:42 PM
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Yeah, listen to what max said. If you're going to drop that much cash at once, make sure you get a deal. Like free crap or 15 or 20 percent off the whole batch. You probably won't be able to pull that off at a big place like REI. Hit up a small store.

Oh, and get some lockers for yer anchors!


moeman


Nov 20, 2003, 11:48 PM
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Ok, to clarify a few things:
The reason I'm getting all six TCU's is becuase I'm getting a package set uber-cheap

And Max, don't worry. I am getting everything at least 25% off or more :D


njbourne


Nov 21, 2003, 12:02 AM
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Offsets are nice in the pin scars on older routes in Seneca.

Hexes are great in size 7-11. If you need more passive pro in smaller sizes just double up on your nuts.

Save some of that 1000+ dollars for a large pizza at The Porch.


toejam


Nov 21, 2003, 12:15 AM
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Sounds right to me. I prefer my #1 alien to my .5 (BD), but use them both.

I have doubles in .5 thru 3 (BD). I rarely carry two 3's but usually carry the rest.


brianc


Nov 21, 2003, 5:00 PM
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Sounds pretty much spot on to me. I personally like doubles in the #1 and 2 camalot sizes and doubles in the tri-cams but to each their own...

Do pick up the #3 camalot, don't know what level you're climbing at but it and the #4 (although to a lesser extent) are useful on many seneca moderates.

I like the Metolious cams in the smaller sizes. Hexes are great too - nothing like the cling-clang. Full set of nuts is a good start though you'll eventually start doubling up in there. Mine are a mish-mash of sizes and brands.

And definitely some free biners (locking and non) for anchors and such. Couple of double-length slings would be helpful as well. I'd get a mix of "regular" draws (either pre-assembled or homemade) and tripled-sling draws rather than all triples but that's just me.


gentry


Nov 21, 2003, 5:11 PM
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i would say when buying a rack to go cheap. so many great deals out there these days..my rack has maybe 16 cams ...set of nuts..set of brass...set hexes... and 3 of the smallest tri-cams. i climb all over the country and have fallen on a 20 dollar cam before. i trust my cheap ass cams..my rack didnt cost anymore than 400 dollars. i started with the 5 cam set from rockempire and used passive until another sweet deal on cams came around. i managed to buy 11 of those cams for 200 dollars.

Sure BD is awesome and the range is great and if you have the cash to just throw it down on whatever than awesome, but a rack doesnt have to be as expensive as it used to be. i think you can get 6 cams at sportextreme right now for 135.00 maybe. barrabes sometimes will have the cheapest cams ever Salewa's and i have fallen on those over and over again.


gravitytheory


Nov 21, 2003, 5:16 PM
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Don't buy a rack. There was thing thing on the O'Reilly factor (the funniest "news" on television) the other day where this woman said that Americans are breast obsessed and it is causing lots of psychological problems for people. Just stick with what you got and be happy with it.


yomomma


Nov 21, 2003, 5:21 PM
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lucky you.

yeah, I'd get the 3.5 camalot. Hexes in the mid to large sizes would be a nice addition, as would another 1/2 set of nuts on the large end. Make sure you get enough carabiners for all that gear. If I had it to do over, I'd get all keylock biners for my straight gates, either spirits or positrons.


capn_morgan


Nov 21, 2003, 6:13 PM
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Id personally go for a full set of curver hexes, metolius or WC. I really like the small ones and use them alot more than nuts. More tricams too. At least 2 pinks if you plan on climbing int he gunks much :) i have placed 3 on one pitch before...without trying to. Northern mtn supply probably still has BD quickwire biners on sale, 2nds. like 5 bucks, light and great. Only thing i dont like wire gates for is racking..reg ocals for that. the mammut double lenght slings are great..thin so they can be duadrupled up easily enough for racking. not as durable as nylon though. Have fun..I recently did something similar...not quite as bad....its so much fun to stand there and say...id like one of those, 2 of those, one of those.....and dont forget to get tape to mark all your new toys/...hehe..great excuse to play with it :)


fredrogers


Nov 21, 2003, 6:21 PM
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You make an important point that you're getting a deal on at least some of your stuff. Let's face it - TCU's and Aliens are both good - but if you can get one for dirt cheap then go with it. I know you said you're getting the TCU's as a set but I honestly never use the #00 or #0 TCU's. I keep them off the rack just for the sake of simplifying/lightening the load. There range is so limited and a nut will usually work in those types of placements.

Nut tool - usually not a big deal item for most people but I recently used Metolious' Freenut tool which has this nice palm protecter and a clip-in wiregate.


Partner climboard


Nov 21, 2003, 6:24 PM
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In reply to:
You make an important point that you're getting a deal on at least some of your stuff. Let's face it - TCU's and Aliens are both good - but if you can get one for dirt cheap then go with it. I know you said you're getting the TCU's as a set but I honestly never use the #00 or #0 TCU's. I keep them off the rack just for the sake of simplifying/lightening the load. There range is so limited and a nut will usually work in those types of placements.

I agree with Fred- I have all the BD microcamalots and I rarely carry the smallest two. Generally a small nut will work better.

Speaking of small nuts- I'm not familiar with the ABC Huevos but assuming they are approximately the same size range as stoppers, skip getting the smallest 3 or 4 sizes and go with some brassies instead. Generally the brassies will hold better in sizes that small.

I also highly recommend getting a set of offsets for Seneca, they are some of my favorite placements.


sfclimber


Nov 21, 2003, 8:35 PM
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In reply to:
Dont buy bd spectra slings or the enduro's for that matter. Buy sewn slings made of climbers spec nylon and pair them up with ovals to make a trad draw. A lot cheaper and more durable than the spectra/ enduro combo. I have some spectra slings from bd and they frey awfully quickly and are expensive compared to the nylon ones that are a lot cheaper.

I have several spectra slings and have been happy with them for certain usages since they are lighter and provide less clutter when used at belay stations. However the fraying point is accurate. The other major drawback is that they are not suitable for friction knots like a prusik, kleimheist or autoblock for things like ascending or backing up a rappel.


sfclimber


Nov 21, 2003, 8:59 PM
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In reply to:
PRO
6 Camalots: sizes 0.5-3 (maybe 3.5?)
6 TCU's: sizes 00-4
12 Huevos: full set (1-13)
2 Tricams: Pink, Red

Other Stuff
15 Draws (shoulder length tripled, BD spectra slings and Enduro biners)
Bluewater 10.2 mm 60m dry rope
2 cordellettes
Black Diamond Half Dome helmet
Gear Sling
Nut tool

Missing from your list is two short (4 ft.) strands of accessory cord (6mm or 7mm) for use as prussiks when finding yourself having to ascend a rope without ascenders or for backing up your rappel with an autoblock.

Of that rack the things I stopped using first were the hexes, then the tricams (though I occasionally miss them). The things I'm most happy to have are the second set of cams (.5-2 inches) and a webolette (as opposed to the cordalette) as there are a lot of 3 bolt anchors in Yosemite that lend themselves well to the shorter length of the webolette which is faster to tie than a cordalette.

I have BD nuts which are identical in shape to the Huevos and I love them. I also have the Metolius curve nuts, but I find that their sharper profile makes them catch and snag more frequently when trying to place them.

Finally, I just bought a 50m rope after years of dragging up the extra 10m of a 60m rope that almost NEVER gets used. Most climbs were put up with a 50m rope in mind and only occasionally, if not rarely, will the 60m rope allow you to link pitches. The end result is dead weight and extra time spent pulling up the 10m of unused rope pitch after pitch after pitch... Also, a small pulley can be a handy gadget for pulling up the excess rope before putting the second on belay. Likewise for pulling up the trail line.


robmcc


Nov 21, 2003, 9:05 PM
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In reply to:
I have several spectra slings and have been happy with them for certain usages since they are lighter and provide less clutter when used at belay stations. However the fraying point is accurate. The other major drawback is that they are not suitable for friction knots like a prusik, kleimheist or autoblock for things like ascending or backing up a rappel.

I read this more or less everywhere, but I just don't find it to be true. I've ascended a rope on multiple occasions on spectra slings, or most of the time, one spectra sling and a gibbs ascender. I've never had a problem getting spectra to grip the rope more than adequately.

Don't take that as encouragement to do it. Maybe it's a catastrophically bad idea. I'm just expressing my puzzlement that it seems to work so well for me and spares me carrying extra stuff just for that purpose.


Partner cracklover


Nov 21, 2003, 9:10 PM
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Sounds fine, in principle.

Good choice on the huevos. I wish I'd bought 'em myself.

I'd hold off on getting another half a set of nuts. Over the next year or two, take every opportunity to play with your partner's nuts to see what turns you on, and then buy what you like.

I'm assuming you've tried on the helmet and it fits you well. I bought the BD Half Dome and the d@mn thing never fit me well. Fortunately(?) it broke all by itself in my pack, and I now use a different style.

Also, I hope you've used TCUs. I bought a few when I got started, and then discovered I hate 'em. Since then, I've done everything I can (short of giving them away) to get 'em off my rack. It's just a matter of taste, I know, but I'd pay twice the price for an Alien.

GO


robmcc


Nov 21, 2003, 9:12 PM
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In reply to:
I'd hold off on getting another half a set of nuts. Over the next year or two, take every opportunity to play with your partner's nuts to see what turns you on, and then buy what you like.

Getting to hear stuff like this is reason enough to climb. Forget the enjoyment of actually getting out there and climbing. "Play with your partner's nuts to see what turns you on."

Ha!

Rob


desertgranite


Nov 21, 2003, 9:21 PM
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Check out Wild Country Rocks, they rock. Screw the hexes and double up on some cams, you'll never look back. Spectra all the way, I've found cuts in my double length nylon slings twice this last year and replaced them all with spectra, it's worth the extra money, don't listen to the naysayers.


superbum


Nov 21, 2003, 10:42 PM
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You don't need to buy the full set of Huevos...unless you are planning on aid climbing. Save ten bucks and go with the smaller set (4-13). That's what I got and I luv em!


timstich


Nov 21, 2003, 10:52 PM
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In reply to:
I favor the Frankenstein rack: some of everything. Every cam has its pluses and negatives...

Heh, heh. I often say that to myself to muster up some pride for my Frankenstein rack. Just added a #4 Metolius 4-cam unit bootied from Happy Hour Crag last weekend. Unfortunately, it's a bit bent up after previous attempts by others to clean it. The main wires are a bit bent at the swags. It will go nicely with my other used Metolius cams that are barely usable.

So what's the crummiest/most useless piece of old gear you have on your rack, madmax?


valygrl


Nov 21, 2003, 10:52 PM
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Never climbed at Seneca, but I would consider picking up a set of HB Offset nuts. They rule in the valley. I prefer Aliens to TCU's, and either of those to micro camelots.


braaaaaaaadley


Nov 21, 2003, 10:56 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Dont buy bd spectra slings or the enduro's for that matter. Buy sewn slings made of climbers spec nylon and pair them up with ovals to make a trad draw. A lot cheaper and more durable than the spectra/ enduro combo. I have some spectra slings from bd and they frey awfully quickly and are expensive compared to the nylon ones that are a lot cheaper.

I have several spectra slings and have been happy with them for certain usages since they are lighter and provide less clutter when used at belay stations. However the fraying point is accurate. The other major drawback is that they are not suitable for friction knots like a prusik, kleimheist or autoblock for things like ascending or backing up a rappel.

If you want to go spectra, go bluewater. Their spectra slings are both incredibly strong(27kn) and incredibly durrable. And they won't cost much more than the black diamond ones. But the majority of my slings are nylon and i have no problems with them.


sfclimber


Nov 22, 2003, 12:05 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I have several spectra slings ... The other major drawback is that they are not suitable for friction knots like a prusik, kleimheist or autoblock for things like ascending or backing up a rappel.

I read this more or less everywhere, but I just don't find it to be true. I've ascended a rope on multiple occasions on spectra slings, or most of the time, one spectra sling and a gibbs ascender. I've never had a problem getting spectra to grip the rope more than adequately.

Don't take that as encouragement to do it. Maybe it's a catastrophically bad idea. I'm just expressing my puzzlement that it seems to work so well for me and spares me carrying extra stuff just for that purpose.

It's not a question of will a spectra sling work, it will - for a while. The problem is that the spectra has a much lower melting point than perlon cord and thus will melt through. If you shock load spectra in a friction knot that does not catch right away (it is a little more slippery), or even just repeatedly slide it up a rope too often it can melt through, or at least enough to seriously compromise its strength.


studs


Nov 22, 2003, 5:56 AM
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My advice.Ya, Double up on cams.Camalots weigh alot and on a long or even short pitch u often need doubles or more.Friends are still the best bang for the buck.Hexes make great paperweights.Go for a thinner rope .they dont break.


catbiter


Nov 22, 2003, 6:06 AM
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This is my first year of climbing, but I dumped every penny into my rack which is a full set of Metolious power cams (don't use the bigger ones much) and a set of Wild Country nuts. When we go to Seneca we double up on the 1-5 sizes on the cams and take as many nuts as we can. (community rack) Every time we get to the top of a pitch there is always plenty of gear left. Most of the climbs 5.6 and lower eat up the gear. If you are putting gear every 10 foot or so, you should be okay with what you have listed. Can't wait for spring!!!!


jimdavis


Nov 22, 2003, 7:23 AM
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Second set of nuts, Metolius IMO.
HB Dynemma Helmet.
Aliens rather than smaller BD's.
Tech Friends to fill in/ overlap Camalots.
Go wiregates instead. Dovals for cams, Hotwires and Trango Lightweights for draws.
Go nylon for cordelettes.
Nylon or Mammut Dynemma slings. Def. Dynemma for double length.
2 prussiks.
Ascenders if you can see your self using them. Petzls are the best.
Tri-Cams up to a 2, w/ 2 Pinks.
Metolius Hexes, though i'm sure people will disagree.
Enduro lockers, Airlock 2's, and a bunch of other lockers.

Also, i'd say get a gri-gri and know how and when to use it. They're invaluable in MANY circumstances.

hope this helps.
Jim


caughtinside


Nov 25, 2003, 9:53 PM
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Get your rack yet, Moeman?


kai_da_klimba


Nov 27, 2003, 10:16 PM
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ah, I get to fantasize about my ideal (starting) rack...

Cams:

green Alien (#1 TCU) to #4 Camalot.

doubles of #1 and #2 camalot size are nice.

skip the 3.5 since it's range is covered by the #3 and #4.

BD are nice for #1 up, but I also like DMM 4CUs, and as this is
a first set, Tech Friends or Flex Cams might also be an option.

Aliens for small cams, TCUs if you must, but not BD.
Small = Alien green, yellow.

Smaller ones are too rarely used IMHO to
go on a starting rack. Skip the TCU 0, 00 and get the
#4 Camalot instead, the easier you climb the stronger I'd advise this.

The #4 is spendy but where this one works,
nothing else will so it's real nice to have.

For sizes equivalent to 0.5 and 0.75 Camalot, I can't decide.
Aliens, TCUs, and BD are nice here I think, but get Aliens if
Aid might be in the future.

All go on their own, light biner: Trango Lightweight wiregate (cheap and great) or even the
newest Trango which at 30 g is the lightest ever. Neutrinos are more expensive at a smaller gate
opening, and Dovals can be annoying cuz you don't know which side is which.

Tricams:
the 3-4 smallest, and maybe the #5
The smaller ones go on a keylock Oval biner (Petzl or Kong), the big one has its own like my
cams.

Nuts:
a full set and later you will want more esp. in the smaller
sizes e.g. #1-5 DMM, and then a full second set.
DMM are my favorites, but by a small margin. Get what you want.
Rack on oval keylock biner.
Maybe a few larger brass nuts: HB offsets.

Nut tool:
Get one that has a bottom side that you can hit with your palm.
DMM with plastic handle, Metolius Freenut (?), or the ones with
a double hook at the bottom in a pinch.
Rack with prusik cord.

Slings:
Yes, get Spectra/Dyneema shoulder length and triple,
but go for the 8 mm by DMM or Wild Country or Mammut.

Trango Lightweight Wiregates at the bottom, same or Positrons (such a nice biner) for the top.

Also get 1-2 double shoulder length slings, and some lockers:

2 Positron Screwgate
2 large pear shaped Screwgate (Omega Jake, Petzl Williams, BD Airlock...)
double if your partner doesn't have the same.

Cordalette or two if your partner doesn't have one (20 ft. 6 mm cord)

Try the helmet on and see which one you prefer, I like the Petzl Ecrin for the way you can adjust the size while you wear it: from tight (climb) to relaxed (belay).

Hold off on the gear sling for now, rack on your harness or a shoulder length sling.

Mammut ropes are the best, that's from 14 years of climbing experience ...

Enjoy !!!
And post your feedback...

Kai


vegastradguy


Nov 28, 2003, 5:15 PM
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what karl said. although i do love my #3.5 camalot.

:)


straightedgeteen


Dec 2, 2003, 4:12 AM
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In reply to:
Ok, so I know this thread has been done countless times, but I'm about to plunk down a crapload of money on trad gear, so I want some advice. Also, I've decided to just go all out with this; for the first time ever, I have $1000+ that I can use for whatever I want, and I've decided to get something useful (a rack) before it slowly starts to seep away for useless junk. So far i've bought almost nothing, but heres what I'm planning to buy:

PRO
6 Camalots: sizes 0.5-3 (maybe 3.5?)
6 TCU's: sizes 00-4
12 Huevos: full set (1-13)
2 Tricams: Pink, Red

Other Stuff
15 Draws (shoulder length tripled, BD spectra slings and Enduro biners)
Bluewater 10.2 mm 60m dry rope
2 cordellettes
Black Diamond Half Dome helmet
Gear Sling
Nut tool

So, what'd ya think? I will be climbing some long multi-pitch in Seneca this coming spring, if that helps any. Comments? Should I getmore nuts and tricams? Less cams? Hexes? Also, what so I need doubles in?

Im not a fan of TCU's i like aliens aloooooot better !!!!!!!!!


jimdavis


Dec 2, 2003, 5:47 AM
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I liked the TCU's on aid, but I don't care for them on trad. Aliens ARE the shiz. And for cordalette, go 7mm instead of 6mm.

The Metolius Curved nuts are also worth getting along with a set of ABC/ BD/ WC nuts.


kimherlee


Dec 5, 2003, 7:55 PM
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I like my rack just the way it is i guess some poeple are born with a nice one then some have to buy them.
Kim


igsaisb


Dec 5, 2003, 9:02 PM
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TCU vs. Aliens.

Since you are likely to double up at some point and are buying TCUs cheap now, target the Aliens when you get to it.

I carry both in the smaller sizes and like 'em both. There are occasions where the TCUs go somewhere I just can't seem to get the Aliens and there are times (horizontal cracks) where I prefer the Aliens.

Good luck.


robmcc


Dec 5, 2003, 9:05 PM
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In reply to:
I like my rack just the way it is i guess some poeple are born with a nice one then some have to buy them.
Kim

:roll:


Partner cracklover


Dec 5, 2003, 9:20 PM
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In reply to:
I like my rack just the way it is i guess some poeple are born with a nice one then some have to buy them.
Kim

Betcha kimherlee's really a man.

This thread is dead... unless the original poster comes back to say what he wound up buying and how he likes it.

GO


robmcc


Dec 5, 2003, 9:21 PM
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Betcha kimherlee's really a man.

Seconded. :wink:


madmax


Dec 5, 2003, 11:26 PM
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So what's the crummiest/most useless piece of old gear you have on your rack, madmax?
hmmm, tough question. Maybe its the green alien that requires two hands to use, or maybe its the pink tri-cam that has no more edge and is shaped like an egg.


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