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imnotclever
Feb 20, 2004, 5:14 PM
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Ok, I have traditional daisies and am trying to figure this aid thing out. From what I have read (Long, Mittendorf, this site) it looks like the function of the daisy was just to keep the piece and the aider from falling into the void.
It also appears that nobody uses traditional daisies for aid anymore, and now everbody uses adjustable daisies with the added benefit of tightening them while climbing the aider.
Is this accessment correct or did the old timers clip the traditional daisy shorter during some stage in the process?
Also, do you ever unclip the daisy from the aider. It seems that if you have a locker connecting the two it would indicate that you shouldn't seperate them, but with both daisies girth hitched to your harness it seems that you would need to unclip the daisy if you need to move the aider to the other side of your body?
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olderic
Feb 20, 2004, 5:53 PM
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Real OldTimers used fifi hooks....
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skiclimb
Feb 20, 2004, 6:18 PM
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clip end... fifi to shorten....sucks though
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lambone
Feb 20, 2004, 6:26 PM
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check out the Kong Adjustable fifi hook.
I've tried both and I prefer the traditional daisy with the adjustable fifi.
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bandycoot
Feb 20, 2004, 6:32 PM
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I learned the old daisy way first as well. Clip the daisy into the piece above you. You will have (hopefully) two fifi hooks girth hitched to your harness. Clip aiders into daisy high up. Step up and slot a fifi into highest accessible loop in the daisy. Hang. Reset feet/aiders. Stand slot fifi into highest available loop. Hang. Set next piece. Clip daisy into piece above. Move aider(s) Repeat.
The new style of aiding has adjustable daisys. Instead of a fifi, you actually have a buckle that you can shorten the length of your daisy with. You stand up in aiders and pull the buckle (it even gives you a slight mechanical advantage!) till it is tight and hang. See above paragraph for the rest of instructions.
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tedc
Feb 20, 2004, 6:52 PM
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It is kind of hard to imagine how much you rely on the daisies (standard or adjustable) until you actually stand in your aid setup and realize that oh s#!t I'm about to tip over backwards. The daisy is basically a third hand allowing you to use/rest your other two hands. Not too noticable on a slab but as the angle gets steeper the daisy work becomes critical. GO TRY IT. You don't even need a rope. Two placements off the ground will be enough to figure it out.
P.S.
If you unclip; sooner or later you will drop something.
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tedc
Feb 20, 2004, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: ... The pockets are used to adjust the length for cleaning, not moving up on lead. I recommend a non-locking keylock biner to connect the daisy and aider, and a big locking keylock biner to connect the biner to the harness....
The pockets ARE used for moving up on lead.
GIRTH HITCH your daisies to your harness. (Assuming you meant daisy when you typed biner the second time.)
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lambone
Feb 20, 2004, 7:04 PM
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pmyche,
Are you saying that you clip your daisies to your harness with a locking carabiner? How come? I can see that it gives ya some extra length, but dont the two extra lockers on your harness get in the way?
I've never heard of two fifis on your harness either. And I can't visualize how tow would help you.
I have heard of using fifi hooks on the end of your daisy chains instead of biners for speed. Never tried it though...
At the end of my daisies I use a big pear shaped auto-locking biner to clip my aiders and clip into the piece. I use locking because it allows me to leave extra pieces on the biner. Without the locker I have dropped cams and aiders, which sucks. It takes a slight extra amount of energy and time to twist the auto-lock, but not much.
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lambone
Feb 20, 2004, 7:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ... The pockets are used to adjust the length for cleaning, not moving up on lead. I recommend a non-locking keylock biner to connect the daisy and aider, and a big locking keylock biner to connect the biner to the harness.... The pockets ARE used for moving up on lead.
Not necesarily, technicaly your body (arms and legs) are used for moving up on lead. The "pockets" are used for hanging, being lazy, and/or resting, also for tension when top steping.
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lambone
Feb 20, 2004, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: I never girth hitch daisies on my harness. I like to be able to leave one going free on lead, and for changing leading/cleaning setups during soloing or swapping blocks, quickly fixing tangles.
Interesting...
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imnotclever
Feb 20, 2004, 7:15 PM
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Thanks guys.
It sounds like you are clipping the daisy into the piece and the aider into the daisy in two seperate steps. Is that correct?
I was trying it last night and I had the aider cliped into the piece and the daisy cliped into the aider. Is that backwards?
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lambone
Feb 20, 2004, 7:23 PM
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ditto,
the less clipping and unclipping the better.
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bandycoot
Feb 20, 2004, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: It sounds like you are clipping the daisy into the piece and the aider into the daisy in two seperate steps. Is that correct
There are many ways to do these steps, all personal preference. If you have dedicated aiders to you daisys, they are on one carabiner that you clip to the piece and you never have to move the aiders. If you don't, and you are using two aiders that you switch between the daisys, then you should clip the daisy first. If you clip the aider, then clip the daisy to that when you place the next piece you can't move the aiders up because they are weighted. Therefore you clip the daisy, then the aider to the daisy so that you can easily move the aiders up to the next piece. You REALLY should just go give it a shot and you'll learn more than asking questions here.
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sfclimber
Feb 21, 2004, 4:59 AM
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Personal preference will dictate the order. The order that you are using is as described by John Long in 'Big Walls' published by Falcon Press (i.e. attach aider first, daisy second) so you're in good company.
Keeping a dedicated daisy per aider and just making a single clip is faster when it's a straight up line and it doesn't matter whether you're clipping from the left or right. But, when you're following a diagonal it becomes a pain in the butt since you're constantly crossing an aider over or under the rope to make every second placement (e.g. if the line goes diagonal left, then the daisy/ladder combination on your right will always have to be passed under or over the rope first before you place it.
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karlbaba
Feb 22, 2004, 3:54 AM
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Folks who use two sets of aiders while aiding often have a daisy clipped to each set. I find that to be a cluster.
I use one set of aiders and an extra clipped to my harness for traverses and leaving when going free. I like to use my daisies independantly from my aiders. It works better with my system and comes in even handier at belays and bivys when aiders and daisy can serve different roles.
I would have to explain my whole system for this to make sense but I don't have time. If you search my username and "daisy" or "daisies" you might find it
Peace
karl
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timpanogos
Feb 22, 2004, 11:29 PM
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Karl,
I found this link via searching for aider or aiders.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...&topic_view=&start=0
After working on a super overhung wall the last while, having a sub- 2nd tree (per set) makes a lot of sense to me - less cluster, less weight and you only really need the one 6 step to move up to a point where you want to start thinking about 2nd or top stepping - I could see cutting a second set right to the 3rd step, as when you really go for a high step you skip the 3rd anyway - for a two feet hang out the 3rd step is fine.
Anyway, a search did not reveal much of interest with karl* on author and daisy or daisies as key word.
I would be very interested and grateful if you would detail your adj. daisy not connected at all to aider movement system.
Chad
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karlbaba
Feb 26, 2004, 6:39 AM
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I searched through some old posts and found this from this thread
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31294&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
This is very similar to the way I aid climb, and I'm very happy with it.
I almost always test the next piece with my daisy, just by tightening the daisy and sitting down on it vigorously. I'm way more stable if the piece fails the test than if I were using aiders to test.
If it holds, I just hang on the daisy and reach down and move both aiders from the lower piece to the higher one. It helps to have knee pads during the transition.
My other daisy is clipped to the aiders separately so I can't drop 'em. Using only two aiders keeps the system very clean and simple. I carry a spare aider or two on each pitch for traverses or to leave one on free transistions.
When I teach aid, I always teach this method and also the more traditional system. Folks who try both usually choose the Baba way!
========================
To use a little more detail. I place the piece which will have either a biner, quickdraw or biner with long sling on it, depending on whether I'm gonna backclean it or use it as pro. When in doubt, quickdraw.
Then I clip my adjustable daisy to that biner. Test. If the piece holds, it's no problem reaching down to get the last piece since I was just standing there. I never "hardwire" my daisies to the aider pair. I would suggest reaching down (or over) and clipping the daisy from the last piece to the aiders and moving them to the next placement. In practice I usually just clip the old daisy to my gear sling and move the aiders up unprotected. I never drop em and I carry spares.
If I placed the last piece high and can't reach it from hanging in my daisies, I clip the aiders to the rap ring which is on the end of my Yates adjustable daisy sling. Stepping up in my aiders drags me up in a hurry until I can clip wherever I like.
I clip the rope when it's below my waist unless I know the piece is bomber and it's efficient to clip it sooner.
This daisy testing technique would probably work good with the Russian Aiders which I will try myself when poverty quits nagging me.
Some exceptions: Some pieces I treat differently. I might clip my daisy to the loop of an alien to gain height rather than the sling.
I find the system to be very fast and particularly free of tangles
Peace
Karl
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timpanogos
Feb 26, 2004, 11:50 PM
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Karl,
Thank you!
The aider on the adj. pull ring on high reach - excellent! - hoist yourself up, then move aider to pro - got to try this
this quote of yours fits me also:
In reply to: I'm fat and old, my system is optimized to go as fast as possible while hanging on my daisy whenever possible.
In my gym practicing, on super overhung - If I can touch the wall, I find I don't even go for the steps until I'm sucked up tight with the adjustibles and ready to move right into the 2nd steps.
I'm going to try your 2 aider technique, and on high placements, where I'm not going to be able to touch the wall to push/pull with feet while sucking myself in on adjustables, put 1 aider on the pull ring before clipping adj - and try that "escalator ride" up the adjustable.
Karl, thanks again for your time in looking this up - I'm interested in trying this with 2 wall ladders, and then again with 1 wall ladder and one 4 step or so aider.
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crackboy
Feb 27, 2004, 7:37 PM
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i have been using the 2 aider method the baba way. i like it, not too much of a cluster and i feel like i am moving fast at least on the gym routes i aided up, including overhanging stuff
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lambone
Feb 27, 2004, 11:47 PM
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keep in mind that if you're yarding yourself up with adjustable aiders, you are also effectively doubling the forces on the piece that your pulling on. May want to becareful with that if it's a sketchy piece.
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watchme
Feb 28, 2004, 12:35 AM
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I too prefer the 3 aider method (like Karl Baba).
Also, be sure to listen to Mr. Lambone, he knows his stuff.
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karlbaba
Feb 28, 2004, 12:46 AM
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In reply to: keep in mind that if you're yarding yourself up with adjustable aiders, you are also effectively doubling the forces on the piece that your pulling on. May want to becareful with that if it's a sketchy piece.
As the risk of starting yet another internet physics flame fest
I don't think the effective weight on the piece is doubled if you are the counterweight to yourself. It's only when a haul-bag or other climber is involved.
Course I've been wrong before, but I'm betting on me this time
peace
karl
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timpanogos
Feb 28, 2004, 4:30 AM
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I'm a physics and math idiot, so the following is more of a dumb question than some educated statement.
I was wondering about this after reading this thread, and wondered if since the pulley is not actually through the piece, but separate and under the piece, then your body weight is all that is ever felt by the pro. As Karl points out, the counterweight effect, the amount of weight you are pulling on one side is being lessened on the other. I’m not even sure that even the friction of the pulley (which would be a lot in this case) would matter. Its still just me hanging there on both ends of it.
Assuming the above is true – that no bodyweight doubling is really being felt by the pro, I’m sure I get lazy on the A0 gym pro and using feet and rapid hoisting, I’m shock loading the piece to some extend – as well as giving a greater outward force that might be very undesirable – like say for a hook move.
If/when all the wonderful snow we are getting subsides; I’ve got about a 60’ pitch in mind that I can tr and try totally hooking the whole face. I’m interested to see how thin of placements I can actually hoist myself up on with the daisies. Using your feet on the wall, I assume you can get a “deadpoint” effect where unloading the piece is also undesirable.
Close by is a small crack that might take cam hooks, I’m interested to try the same thing here.
However, I’ve got this sneaky feeling that when I actually find myself on a scary rivet/head/rp or black alien, I’m likely to gingerly climb those steps.
I would really like to know if this does increase the load felt by a factor of 2 or more. Anyone know for absolute sure?
Thanks
Chad
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skiclimb
Feb 28, 2004, 6:00 AM
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Edited
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lambone
Feb 29, 2004, 12:58 AM
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yeah, I could be wrong...I'm no physics expert. All I know is that when I'm on a sketchy piece I creep up those aiders like I'm climbing a rotten ladder, or WI 6 chandeliered ice climb...
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ammon
Feb 29, 2004, 1:29 AM
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Lambone said:
In reply to: I've tried both and I prefer the traditional daisy with the adjustable fifi
Yeah, I like this way too. I usually use two traditional and will float a third (adjustable) if the route is steep.
I don't use a locker, though..... and have lost an aider because of it. But, I unclip the aider from the daisy often (to remove tangles) and don't like the time that it takes to undo the locker.
I've noticed everyone does it a bit different and has their own little tricks.
Cheers, Ammon
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timpanogos
Feb 29, 2004, 1:58 AM
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Ammon, Lambone;
So when you guys use regular pocket daisies and an Adjustable Fifi - I'm assuming you have one adjustable fifi tied to your your harness - and you actually only use this for high stepping.
Thus you are always in your steps (or basically free climbing and clipping daisies).
Is this correct?
Chad
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ammon
Feb 29, 2004, 2:27 AM
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No, I don't use an adjustable fifi, just a regular one.
Usually, I walk up the aider and hook my fifi into the carabiner that is clipped to the gear in the wall. I hardly ever use the loops to hook my fifi into.
Also, I don't girth the adjustable daisy that I float. I clip it to a locking carabiner when/if I need to use it. That way I can easily remove it when I don't need it anymore.
When I high-step I don't fifi'd into anything. I hold on to the same carabiner that I would fi, with one hand and place the gear with the other.
Hope this helps.
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timpanogos
Feb 29, 2004, 3:07 AM
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Ammon,
So your fifi is tied to your harness, long enough to allow for top most stepping - like 8" or so? Or do you keep it short and unhook it as you top step (no daisy/fifi high step support at all).
Chad
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ammon
Feb 29, 2004, 10:30 PM
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Hey Chad,
Yeah, I keep the fifi tied really short to my harness and unclip it entirely if I'm going to top step. I either hold onto the carabiner with my other hand or try and find a feature on the wall to hold onto.
The trick with high stepping is to do it fast and have the piece already attached to your daisy. Make the high step move and let your body weight the piece. Make sure your feet stay in the aider's your hanging on. If the piece blows..... well, then you don't have to test it, huh? Just crouch back onto your aider.
This is what I do, anyway. There's MANY ways to do it.
Cheers, Ammon
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timpanogos
Mar 1, 2004, 7:03 PM
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I got a chance to try the single set of aiders (not attached to adj daisy) method yesterday – very fast, tangle free and nice! I even stayed off my adjustable fifi – let out some slack on the adj daisy and tried some Ammon – hand on gear – top most stepping on the overhung wall. I could actually reach higher than my free adjustable daisy is long. Karl’s “escalator” ride up on these placements worked very nice and well worth the two clips. I also found Karl’s method of clipping the aiders to the rap ring on the adjustable very nice for some super reachy traversal moves that allowed me to more easily clip lead and remove the previous daisy and then pull my self over/up to the new daisy placement.
I’m not sure that even a third aider would be needed for big traversals? I only did a few moves left and right, but they were very reachy moves that required pulling/pushing on features to pendy enough to make the clips. However, these were still up and over - I need to try some straight overs
Thanks guys for the tips, I’m about to cut one Yates ladder off at the 3rd step. My speed and confidence has come way up working on this wall – interested to see how it will translates over to real rock – if it ever quits snowing here!
Chad
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timpanogos
Mar 2, 2004, 3:27 PM
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We all should have realized that an adjustable daisy only has one "pulley" and hence is only a 1:1 - however, this link gives a good example on how this actually works out to be a 2:1 advantage.
It also shows how even if you did setup a 2:1 on yourself, it would not double the load felt by the anchor.
http://www.supertopo.com/...html?m=32719&f=0&b=0
Have fun
Chad
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imnotclever
Mar 26, 2004, 1:32 PM
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In reply to: Then I clip my adjustable daisy to that biner. .... I would suggest reaching down (or over) and clipping the daisy from the last piece to the aiders and moving them to the next placement. Peace Karl
Thanks for the info, I can see how the "Baba way" reduces clutter. One more question for you. Do you clip your aiders into the daisy biner, and live with losing 3" a time, or into the piece and just live with the biner shift?
Thanks to everyone for your responses.
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timpanogos
Mar 26, 2004, 3:14 PM
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Make sure you have a nice keyless binner on your aiders - In my last few outings, I've found that I can usually always clip the piece - even though I'm weighting it with the daisy.
Surprisingly I've found it easier to clip hook slings (and mine are tied very short) than small HB brassy wires - whos loops pull very tight when weighted. But in both of these cases, I've typically been able to clip the aiders under the daisy - thus having a better weighted position (in closer to rock) when you end up high stepping on the thing. This also reduces the binner shift a bit - but you still get it - yee haw - half the fun.
Of course cams are an easly clip to piece - once again - what's a little binner shift verses lossing that 3"?
Only really freaks me when it waits for those high steping moments to shift. I typically talk to mine at that point. Instant eye to piece focus with HEY what the fecth are you doing there?
Chad
Chad
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karlbaba
Mar 26, 2004, 3:16 PM
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In general, I deal with biner shift. It's not too bad since I clip one aider to another, so there's only the daisy biner and the aider biner.
On some pieces, there are two places to clip in, the biner on the cam sling and the cable. I can clip the daisy to one and the aiders to the other. SInce the piece is unweighted when I remove the daisy and aiders, it doesn't matter which gets clipped where except in what configuration helps me stand higher int he aiders
If the next placement is reachy, i try to mazimize reach, if not, I go for efficiency. I usually clip the aiders and daisy to a free biner on the piece.
Peace
karl
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