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pt
Dec 7, 2004, 4:50 AM
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In reply to: Haikus are stupid When they're written in English STFU n00b -Jay
Well, aren't you a pleasant fellow. Thank you for that insightful and well thought out critique.
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sharpender
Dec 7, 2004, 4:55 AM
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In reply to: Haikus are stupid When they're written in English STFU n00b
Mirrors of Buddahood
These worlds of dew
minute, translucent, bright
do not discriminate where they alight.
Sohn
Gotta love this stupid English. Of course it is a translation. Perhaps you'll write one here in Japanese.
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sharpender
Dec 7, 2004, 4:57 AM
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In reply to: I once read that people defend their insecurities more than their strenghts. I see that often, especially in the climbing world.
DUH. :lol: :roll: :lol:
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guangzhou
Dec 7, 2004, 7:19 AM
Post #79 of 130
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Looks like some people are already ready to contribute. I think by making it private, we eliminate a lot of the negativity.
This would not be an editing service, but a place to submit work and have other people comment on it. A nice thing about critique (not editing) is if the writer doesn’t agree, he doesn’t have to make the change. Also, having several people make suggestion can redirect the writer.
Let's see if we can make this happen.
What admin guy do we need to approach about this.
Eman
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iamthewallress
Dec 7, 2004, 1:19 PM
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In reply to: Wallress, was that swipe aimed at me? If so, I rather take offense to it. I don't live in a bubble of upper-division lit classes that, because the professor signed off my drop-add form, led me to believe I am some kind of superhero writer. I am a working professional. I still freelance, but I do regularly get published. I don't spray heavily about this (above statement aside), though when I do mention it, it's not like it's not true.
Well...somewhat. My point is that if you decide that your harsh criticism is so valuable that you simply must level it even if it is so harsh that people miss the message because they feel too injured to listen, then you best get out your thick skin suit and prepare to receive a harsh critique on the style of your criticism.
I've published a fair amount too. And have a useless degree in French Lit. My writing experience and publication record do not change the fact that in my own opinion of myself I'm not much of a writer. In a forum where we know each other through our writing, our contributions speak louder than degrees. I respect your writing because of the quality of the lot of it that I've read...not because of your training or your publication record. I would respect your opinion of mine for the same reason.
My goal in participating in a writing forum would not be to hone my craft to the point where the mags would be begging me to write for them. My goal would be to improve at something that I love for the sheer pleasure of doing so...same goal that I have in climbing.
If you love writing so much that you find it an intolerable afront to the craft to see a hobbyist write at a level that is not as developed as yours, then I'd suggest that you need to chill or not bother playing the writing criticism game with hobbyists. I'd say the same thing to a 5.13 climber who couldn't tolerate a climbing site with legions of folks that climb no better than you or I climb.
You wrote:
In reply to: I take my writing and my skill seriously. If anybody wants to take that personally, sorry. But I side with Dingus (!) here. I can't think of a way to not sound elitist, so I apologize in advance. Does a 5.13 climber appreciate a 5.7 weekend warrior flailer telling her how to improve her footwork or training routine?
Taking your own writing seriously does not necessitate putting down others who do not possess your same level of skill in a way that is not constructive to them. If you struggle up some 5.8, and someone comes through and solos it then tells you that you were just an intolerable "piss-poor" climber, you'd think he was an arsehole and not really give a rats arse about his 5.13's, right?
If you fancy yourself a 5.13 writer and see that the writing group is full of gumby 5.7 writers, then why should you feel compelled to criticize the pathetic wannabes? Why bother participationg at all? Some 5.13 climbers enjoy helping 5.7 climbers and actually find both the act of teaching and observing others who approach problems with a pure 'beginner's mind' educational. Some prefer the company of similarly skilled climbers, and avoid climbing interactions with the less-skilled or say polite things when the interactions can't be avoided. And some folks love to attack the easy targets. Which do you prefer when you're on the receiving end? As a non-5.13 climber would you resent a 5.13 climber telling you that your climbing is too lame to merit your participation in a climbing forum? After all, the chances are pretty good that you or I will climb no harder by participating in this forum, and sharing tech tips here certainly won't take us from 9's to 13's.
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edge
Dec 7, 2004, 2:35 PM
Post #81 of 130
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In reply to: I pretty much was a stoner throughout HS, so anything I learned about sentence structure, verbs, adverbs, pronouns and such is from before seventh grade. Though I've always enjoyed creative writing, I'm self-taught. To put my work up for review by people who may or may not have the credentials to be critiqing, nor the tact to respect the level of vulnerablity a person has when submitting for input....uh, no. There is no way I would ever subject myself to what I can see this Writing Club will be whipping out, if this thread is an indication of the level of nitpicking. However.....if a forum is developed with guidlines that create an atmosphere of support, I'd feel differently. Edited to add: I got the granite/granted allusion.... just like I get it when someone from bouldering.com uses the word "gneiss to replace "nice."
Great post; I am of similar feelings.
I tested out of my English Comp class in college because I showed the Prof three articles that I had already published in climbing magazines. While not all were technically perfect, they spoke in a voice that rang true to the feeling I was trying to convey; I was lucky that the professor could see and appreciate that fact. That is my personal writing style, and I make it work for me.
I like to write the way that I think and speak, which is not always the proper Queen's Engrish (lame joke mis-type; don't get your panties in a wad...). I like to take chances and try different formats. I compare it to being out on lead with bad pro; sometimes you crash and burn, other times you pull it off by the skin of the teeth, but either way you are riding an adrenaline bronco and it just feels so good. I certainly do not want anyone to pick apart a piece of my writing who does not know or understand the spirit in which it was written.
I recently added a trip report that makes me cringe when I re-read it for all of the minor grammatical errors and such. But you know what? This is only the internet, and in the end, it's really not that important. However, I find it vastly more interesting than the recycled drivel that the print mags crank out.
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dingus
Dec 7, 2004, 3:55 PM
Post #82 of 130
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dmt
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johnhemlock
Dec 7, 2004, 4:40 PM
Post #83 of 130
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In reply to: In reply to: I will submit some haikus. Please critique. . . Ice Climb #36 A posthole approach Grip strength of Liberace Cocoa thermos leaked Haikus are stupid When they're written in English STFU n00b -Jay
Haiku #2
Arrogant asshole
Personality transplant?
I think you need one.
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wildtrail
Dec 7, 2004, 4:47 PM
Post #84 of 130
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In reply to: This site has some really good photographers and writers. It sure would be nice to have a private group where we could critics each other as writers like the photographers have. Is anyone interested in this. Eman
It was tried. We were organizing a climbing ezine for climbers by climbers. Kind of a FUBU thing. Then, it went on the backburner, the site was sold out, and you all ended up with that lame ezine that is offered.
There is some serious talent here in writing and photography for sure. I write, but can't take a picture without my thumb in it. Hopefully, my soon-to-be aid partner can so we can cover both creative sides of the spectrum of our experiences.
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usmc_2tothetop
Dec 7, 2004, 5:19 PM
Post #85 of 130
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I would be down for a Writers Forum. I could put some stuff in. It would be cool to read others as well.
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caughtinside
Dec 7, 2004, 6:15 PM
Post #86 of 130
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In reply to: After all, the chances are pretty good that you or I will climb no harder by participating in this forum, and sharing tech tips here certainly won't take us from 9's to 13's.
Wallress--
This is a brilliant and highly insightful piece of writing. I like how you take the picture of what we'd all like to be, and dash it to pieces. The illusion that RC.com will make me a better climber has been pierced, and I can see with a new clarity. I grok! 8^)
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fiend
Dec 7, 2004, 6:35 PM
Post #87 of 130
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I try to be a writer once in a while and--in case anyone is counting-- I wouldn't participate in the forum.
Some things to consider:
A critique forum only works if those that submit works critique others as well.
Most publications require First Serial Rights. While it's arguable that a critique forum would only be viewable by registered members of rc.com and that the internet publishing may be considered to breach any agreement you would make with a publisher, there's a good chance that you could screw yourself by posting your work publicly.
In reply to: First serial rights are sold to periodicals (serials). Included in these rights is the agreement that the periodical will be the first publisher of the material. First serial rights can be restricted to include a particular area; e.g., modified versions are first North American serial rights and first U.S. serial rights.
Obviously not a problem for anyone just writing a TR for this site, but something to consider for those of you trying to break into the pitifully elite circle of paid climbing writers.
I think those interested would be better off setting up some kind of email contact where they can email manuscripts back and forth to each other. Electronic editing can be a pain in the ass and most word processing programs have much better features for commenting and editing than this forum does.
I wish all the budding writers' good luck, but I don't think this is your answer. Then again, maybe some of you will gain a lot from this type of forum.
There's also the possibility of someone taking out some cheap webspace and setting up a writers' forum if you think it's that good of an idea. Rc.com is getting a bit cluttered as it is.
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crag
Dec 7, 2004, 7:04 PM
Post #88 of 130
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I tried to wade through the previous post because I have come to this thread a little late but the concept of a writing club did intrigue me at first, until I started wading. I love to climb and I love to write but do not do either well. Even tried throwing a couple articles up on this site but they never really went anywhere and this does not surprise me. When you are a punter like me, you tend to respect other opinions of your work. If an invite only group were to emerge on this site, I fear I would be last in line. However it may be the only way to separate the signal form the noise.
For those of you who can write I would like to thank you all for taking the time to publish your thoughts here on this site. It can be truly inspirational.
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maculated
Dec 7, 2004, 7:52 PM
Post #89 of 130
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If you persist in this line of discussion, I suggest you take it to PM. Public admonishment is not such a warm, friendly thing in any department. My grammar critiques are all in fun, this post was not. This is also not the topic of this thread. A possiple writers' group is.
In reply to: I'm sure its hard to leave the teacher in the classroom... but rc.com is not the classroom.
Pot. Kettle. Black. I seem to remember a particularly prescriptive post about what makes a good TR in this very thread. RC.com is, in its essence, didactic. People come here to learn.
That said, I don't wantonly go around debasing people's bad syntax, I simply point out recurrent errors that many people have actually enjoyed hearing about. And I can take the critiques back. It's all in good fun. Many see this. Granite, others don't. I get it. I am pretty sure you do a lot of things on this forum that others don't enjoy either, yet you do it for sheer personal amusment.
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robdotcalm
Dec 7, 2004, 9:10 PM
Post #90 of 130
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As a sometimes, author and editor of software manuals, I provide a description of my latest trip to Mt. Everest. The style exhibited in this writing would make trip reports more succinct.
We departed from the base camp at 03:30. We carried heavy loads. We arrived at Camp 1 at 18:35. We were tired. We ate dinner. We went to sleep. We awoke at 03:30. We eliminated body wastes. We ate breakfast. We departed for Camp 2 at 08:00. We arrived at Camp 2 at 21:00. We were tired. We erected the tent. We entered the tent. We slept. We awoke at 05:00. We eliminated body wastes. We ate breakfast. We departed for Camp 3 at 09:00. We arrived at Camp 3 at 18:00. We erected the tent. We entered the tent Climber A died of pulmonary edema. We dumped his body into a crevasse. We ate dinner. We slept. We awoke at 06:00. We eliminated body wastes. We ate breakfast. We departed for the summit at 08:00. At 09:30, Climber B could not move due to hypothermia. We abandoned him. We continued to the summit. We arrived at the summit at 16:00. We descended reversing the steps we had executed in ascending upwards including the dumping a climber and the abandoning of another climber.
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shakylegs
Dec 7, 2004, 9:23 PM
Post #91 of 130
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In reply to: As a sometimes, author and editor of software manuals, I provide a description of my latest trip to Mt. Everest. The style exhibited in this writing would make trip reports more succinct. etc.
Sorry, you have an adjective in your TR. Bad software writer. Bad!
You should also have presented it in numbered form, but i'll give you bonus points for not using bullets.
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jt512
Dec 7, 2004, 9:35 PM
Post #92 of 130
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I will submit some haikus. Please critique. . . Ice Climb #36 A posthole approach Grip strength of Liberace Cocoa thermos leaked Haikus are stupid When they're written in English STFU n00b -Jay Haiku #2 Arrogant asshole Personality transplant? I think you need one.
Typical gumby
Sense of humor is lacking
Love 5.7 slab
-Jay
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climbsomething
Dec 7, 2004, 9:37 PM
Post #93 of 130
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^^^ ROFLMFAO
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acacongua
Dec 7, 2004, 9:37 PM
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I have a B.A. in English and experience as a copy editor. PM me if I can help.
Stephanie
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philbox
Moderator
Dec 7, 2004, 9:57 PM
Post #95 of 130
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In reply to: What admin guy do we need to approach about this. Eman
That would be me.
I`ve been following this conversation since the start with great interest. I`d like to let it run a little while longer before committing one way or another.
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climbsomething
Dec 7, 2004, 10:26 PM
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Wallress, I think you misunderstood me. But then, I did probably err in using a climbing ratings analogy. Those tend not to be successful.
I am not a vicious and tactless editor. My observation that the bulk of rc.com's posters are poor writers stands, though. That's just how people are; rc.com is just a "microcosm" of the human race in this regard. However, I am a serious editor. I teach (rather, critique) writing like Jay teaches math (if nobody knows what I'm talking about, take an educated guess ;) )
Oh, and I don't buy into that beginner's mind philosophy. I've generally found it too sugary.
And publication track records should actually matter when determining somebody's "credentials" as a writer. Employment, research and academic experiences matter in the sciences, do they not? It's a factor in the humanities as well. No argument that you have a hell of a lot more hobbyist writers than hobbyist biostatisticians, but nonetheless.
And I have implied as much, but I'll state clearly that I have no interest in participating in a writers' forum. I am sure y'all are quite broken up over that, eh? :P
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dingus
Dec 7, 2004, 10:44 PM
Post #97 of 130
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dmt
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johnhemlock
Dec 7, 2004, 10:51 PM
Post #98 of 130
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In reply to: Typical gumby Sense of humor is lacking Love 5.7 slab -Jay
What is cool about this site is that someone can tell you to STFU and then accuse you of having no sense of humor. Good place for passive aggressives! I guess I will share my haikus on the widowed librarian singles site instead, where they appreciate my art.
Oh jt512
spent all week rapbolting
5.4 slab testpiece
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maculated
Dec 7, 2004, 10:57 PM
Post #99 of 130
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Very amused. We should have all kinds of fun trip reports like this:
In reply to: We departed from the base camp at 03:30. We carried heavy loads. We arrived at Camp 1 at 18:35. We were tired. We ate dinner. We went to sleep. We awoke at 03:30. We eliminated body wastes. We ate breakfast. We departed for Camp 2 at 08:00. We arrived at Camp 2 at 21:00. We were tired. We erected the tent. We entered the tent. We slept. We awoke at 05:00. We eliminated body wastes. We ate breakfast. We departed for Camp 3 at 09:00. We arrived at Camp 3 at 18:00. We erected the tent. We entered the tent Climber A died of pulmonary edema. We dumped his body into a crevasse. We ate dinner. We slept. We awoke at 06:00. We eliminated body wastes. We ate breakfast. We departed for the summit at 08:00. At 09:30, Climber B could not move due to hypothermia. We abandoned him. We continued to the summit. We arrived at the summit at 16:00. We descended reversing the steps we had executed in ascending upwards including the dumping a climber and the abandoning of another climber.
God, I love the different structures of essays. I would love to study some of the European and Asian formats. Western culture's stuck in classical rhetoric style for the most part.
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climbsomething
Dec 7, 2004, 11:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Typical gumby Sense of humor is lacking Love 5.7 slab -Jay What is cool about this site is that someone can tell you to STFU and then accuse you of having no sense of humor. Good place for passive aggressives! I guess I will share my haikus on the widowed librarian singles site instead, where they appreciate my art. Oh jt512 spent all week rapbolting 5.4 slab testpiece
but nobody ever does
Jay, the enigma
:lol: :lol:
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