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bluevan
Feb 2, 2005, 3:49 PM
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I have been using Nalgene's for years and just found out from a friend how dagerous the leaching chemicals from these bottles can be. Not believing this was actually true I did a little web surfing and found a bunch of sites that actually back up this claim. Apparently when you heat Nalgene bottles up with hot water or leave them exposed to extreme heat they leach out chemicals that actually act as hormone disruptors.
I was sad to find this out because I loved using these bottles. Their weight to storage ratio is awesome. But for now I have switched to using stainless steel water containers until a safer plastic is made. A little extra weight when going into the back country but for hiking into your local crag the weight difference really dosen't matter.
I am just posting this to inform the community because I know most of us climbers have serveral Nalgene's we use all the time. Please do your own research and decide for yourselves. Below is a quote I got from one website about actual testing that has been done.
-peace
"Polycarbonate plastics, those in the no. 7 bottle, contain bisphenol-A, a known hormone disruptor which can dissolve into water. This is no small matter, since hormone disruptors are chemicals that interfere with the way hormones guide fetal development and later growth. As reported in Current Biology April 1, 2003, bisphenol-A exposure in pregnant mice resulted in errors in fetal cell division, though researchers caution that the same may not happen in humans. In fact, the most popular water bottle sold at REI is a Nalgene bottle made of the polycarbonate Lexan. According to the Our Stolen Future website, Lexan may be chemically different from standard polycarbonate plastic and less subject to leaching, though they have no evidence for this. Leaching of bisphenol-A increases with the plastic's age and when subject to heat."
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usmc_2tothetop
Feb 2, 2005, 4:01 PM
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Wow dude.....thanks for the insight.
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dingus
Feb 2, 2005, 4:01 PM
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Lexan is the hard variety of Nalgene bottles isn't it? The colored bottles if you will. I positively HATE those bottles since dropping my sole water container at the base of Gray Eagle Dome on a hot day. It shattered. I would have wept but I could not afford it!
I haven't even pissed in one since.
If its the soft shell model, I don't use those all that much anymore either. Great for mixing gatorade powder and the like, bit for much of my normal water use. Now I mostly use plastic water bottles and carry them out or melt them down when I'm done with em.
Cheers and thanks for the post
DMT
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quickclips
Feb 2, 2005, 4:51 PM
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Melt them down?!?!?! Way to try and minimally invasive.
Thanks for the input on not heating them.
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crackrn
Feb 2, 2005, 4:57 PM
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What constitutes extreme heat (note: I did NOT take the time to read every link Nalgene posted on their website so if the info was there, my bad.)? Is a summer day at Joshua Tree considered extreme? Or is it merely the act of heating water over a stove/fire?
I wonder if the hot water of a dishwasher could have an effect as well....
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petsfed
Feb 2, 2005, 5:09 PM
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Meh, I think I'll take my chances.
Anybody want a mountain dew?
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dynosore
Feb 2, 2005, 5:19 PM
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This is another bogus study. Unless you drink boiling water from your nalgene every day, I wouldn't sweat it. I work in the plastic industry and it's a fact that all plastics are going to leach various chemicals under the right conditions. It's the amount and the chemical that matter. Bis-A is not particularly toxic, especially in the concentrations you would get from this type of exposure. Your acidic pop in a plastic bottle probably leaches more out..and it doesn't harm you, or Mt. Dew would have done me in years ago.
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sactownclimber
Feb 2, 2005, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: Not believing this was actually true I did a little web surfing and found a bunch of sites that actually back up this claim.
If it's on the internet it must be true . . .
. . . are you picking up the sarcasm? Cause I'm laying it on pretty thick.
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dingus
Feb 2, 2005, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: Meh, I think I'll take my chances. Anybody want a mountain dew?
Whoa man, you like to live dangerously!
The last wilderness camp I attended (its been a while to my shame) I reached camp late. After downing several of the beers I labored to transport I nugged a bowl, ate an accompanying box of crackerjack, then cooked up some righteous tacos with fresh grilled chicken, real salsa, wilderness onions we found growing nearby and lots of melted cheese, all done directly over the cancer inducing flames of a wood fire. After dinner I indulged in a quart of industrial strength gatoritas my partner mixed up 'just for me' and retired to bed shortly there after.
Around midnight I woke up cotton mouthed and so took a drink from my partner's lexan bottle. Head spins were first. The projectile vomiting commenced shortly thereafter, lol!
That fucking lexan!
DMT
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shakylegs
Feb 2, 2005, 5:47 PM
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In reply to: Around midnight I woke up cotton mouthed and so took a drink from my partner's lexan bottle. Head spins were first. The projectile vomiting commenced shortly thereafter, lol! That fucking lexan! DMT
Well, that's your problem right there. Methinks you picked up his pee bottle.
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wonderwoman
Feb 2, 2005, 5:55 PM
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My friend just went to the American Public Health Assn. conference where she attended a seminar on the links between low level exposures to Bisphenol-A and childhood obesity. The worst leaching plastic is PVC which leaches phthalates that are known reproductive and developmental toxins and suspected human carcinogens.
In reply to: Anybody want a mountain dew?
FYI - Bisphenal-A is in all those soda bottles, too. And if mountain dew is your caffinated beverage of choice, you're drinking mercury, too (no wonder I'm so stoopid)
Drink up everybody!!
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dingus
Feb 2, 2005, 6:04 PM
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It was 6 months before Brutus found the compassion to tell me the significance of the YELLOW lexan bottle, lol!
DMT
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wlderdude
Feb 2, 2005, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: The worst leaching plastic is PVC which leaches phthalates that are known reproductive and developmental toxins and suspected human carcinogens. FYI - Bisphenal-A is in all those soda bottles, too. And if mountain dew is your caffinated beverage of choice, you're drinking mercury, too (no wonder I'm so stoopid) Drink up everybody!!
If this is true, I think the Nalgene bottles are much less of a worry.
Next, I'll bet you are going to tell me drinking from the hose is going to kill me.
Well, I will take my chances with the plastic bottles. These chemicals pose a much lower health risk than dehydration.
I am not going to lug glass or stainless bottles around.
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overlord
Feb 2, 2005, 6:20 PM
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what kind of heat are talking about here. like a hot day inside the car heat, boiling water heat, ccoking over the fire heat or blow torch heat????
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speedywon
Feb 2, 2005, 6:22 PM
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Well, I will take my chances with the plastic bottles. These chemicals pose a much lower health risk than dehydration.
I am not going to lug glass or stainless bottles around.
Bingo, I'd stop taking the Nalgene to work every day (replaced it with a stainless steel coffee mug, etc), but on hikes or climbing trips where there are no other (practical) alternatives you are far better taking in a few plastic toxins than getting dehydrated. Besides, its not like you aren't going to put worse things in your body at the local pub after the climb.
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campo
Feb 2, 2005, 6:30 PM
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Ide heard rumors of this a while ago....and to this day I still cherish my nalgene, and probably wont ever put it down.
As it has been already said, these chemicals are present in alot of plastics...so Im not really worried about it.
Plus...anyone who lives in an suburban and urban area is inhaling at least 10X more toxins on a daily basis than I am at my rural (Very rural :D) cabin drinking out of my nalgene.....
Everything kills you nowadays...Its all a matter of survival of the fittest at this point :lol:
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wingnut
Feb 2, 2005, 7:03 PM
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you're probably right.
*sigh* what the world is coming too...
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wonderwoman
Feb 2, 2005, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: Its all a matter of survival of the fittest at this point :lol:
In a world of reduced sperm counts, erectile dysfunction and endometriosis, I totally agree. For a long time I have believe that the human race is going to make itself sterile from exposure to all this crap. Thank goodness for modern invitro-science and viagra! :P
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fanederhand
Feb 2, 2005, 7:20 PM
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In reply to: I have been using Nalgene's for years and just found out from a friend how dagerous the leaching chemicals from these bottles can be. ... I am just posting this to inform the community Thanks for that!-peace "Polycarbonate plastics, those in the no. 7 bottle, contain bisphenol-A, a known hormone disruptor which can dissolve into water. This is no small matter, since hormone disruptors are chemicals that interfere with the way hormones guide fetal development and later growth. As reported in Current Biology April 1, 2003, bisphenol-A exposure in pregnant mice resulted in errors in fetal cell division, though researchers caution that the same may not happen in humans. In fact, the most popular water bottle sold at REI is a Nalgene bottle made of the polycarbonate Lexan. According to the Our Stolen Future website, Lexan may be chemically different from standard polycarbonate plastic and less subject to leaching, though they have no evidence for this. Leaching of bisphenol-A increases with the plastic's age and when subject to heat."
NOt enough data to make a good decision about this. What is the concentration in a quart of liquid if you put 212 Deg f water in it ... say after 1 hour. Are there worse chemicals that are leached out? Lexan leaches way less that the other plastic bottles. Those steel bottles use plastic tops they will leach too. But you are right, heat will cause a very very small amount to leach. Will have to check this out because I put hot water in my lexal bottle for many years.
Lastly ... most climbers consume enough beer that I dought you would ever see the health effects of bisphenol-A because they would be way overshadowed by the health effects due to the beer. And if you are a climber that smokes (weed or tobacco i dont care) ... hey ... heat all the lexan bottles you want it wont make any difference to your health.
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xayamongkiing
Feb 2, 2005, 8:05 PM
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I think BREATHING is probably just as dangerous as drinking from a Nalgene bottle. Besides, I love my bottle!
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xayamongkiing
Feb 2, 2005, 8:06 PM
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I think BREATHING is probably just as dangerous as drinking from a Nalgene bottle these days. What is the world coming to? WE'RE ALL GONNA' DIE!!
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mrmons
Feb 2, 2005, 8:18 PM
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I have my Nalgene sitting right here next to me and it's very offended by all this talk. He's always held whatever I needed and always keeps it cold for as long as it could. Viva Nalgene!!!
In all seriousness, there are so many other things to worry about than this. Think about a rock the size of Texas traveling at unbelievable speeds, screaming through the Earth's atmosphere, slamming into the Atlantic ocean, flash boiling millions of gallons of sea water and basically ending all life on this little mud ball. Plus, a very small percentage of the sky is being searched for these killers.
Anyone thirsty? :roll:
Mr. Mons :twisted:
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shakylegs
Feb 2, 2005, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Its all a matter of survival of the fittest at this point :lol: In a world of reduced sperm counts, erectile dysfunction and endometriosis, I totally agree. For a long time I have believe that the human race is going to make itself sterile from exposure to all this crap. Thank goodness for modern invitro-science and viagra! :P
is there something about blueeyedclimber that you're not telling us?
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iltripp
Feb 2, 2005, 8:32 PM
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This thread is full of misinformation.
1) Certain plastics do leach chemicals. PVC can leach dangerous pthalates, Polycarbonate (lexan) leaches BPA. These are facts. However, the danger of BPA to humans at these concentrations is not proven yet. The study mentioned in the original post found that mice were experiencing birth defects from the BPA leached into their water after the containers were cleaned with high temperature and heavy detergents. Does this mean the same danger is there for humans? Possibly, but that is yet to be determined. A similar study was done with rats that did not show the same results. Unfortunately, the methodology of that study was criticized (don't remember why), so the verdict is still out.
2) BPA is a constituent chemical in the monomer that makes polycarbonate, normally known as lexan. The nalgene bottles containing polycarbonate are the very hard colored ones. The old-style soft Nalgenes are made with either Polyethylene or polypropylene. Neither of these contain or leach BPA, so they should be completely safe
3) Many people have stated that soda bottles also leach BPA. Since soda bottles are not, to my knowledge, made out of polycarbonate, this is completely false. I belive most soda bottles are made out of polyethtylene terephthalate (which is basically polyester).
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fanederhand
Feb 2, 2005, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: This thread is full of misinformation. 1) Certain plastics do leach chemicals. PVC can leach dangerous pthalates, Polycarbonate (lexan) leaches BPA. These are facts. However, the danger of BPA to humans at these concentrations is not proven yet. The study mentioned in the original post found that mice were experiencing birth defects from the BPA leached into their water after the containers were cleaned with high temperature and heavy detergents. Does this mean the same danger is there for humans? Possibly, but that is yet to be determined. A similar study was done with rats that did not show the same results. Unfortunately, the methodology of that study was criticized (don't remember why), so the verdict is still out. 2) BPA is a constituent chemical in the monomer that makes polycarbonate, normally known as lexan. The nalgene bottles containing polycarbonate are the very hard colored ones. The old-style soft Nalgenes are made with either Polyethylene or polypropylene. Neither of these contain or leach BPA, so they should be completely safe 3) Many people have stated that soda bottles also leach BPA. Since soda bottles are not, to my knowledge, made out of polycarbonate, this is completely false. I belive most soda bottles are made out of polyethtylene terephthalate (which is basically polyester).
One point here. There is no plastic that is totally pure Polycarbonate or Polyethylene, there are always impurities. Food grade plastics however are made with a higher standard of purity than if the plastic is used as a composite for structural fabrication of products. Lexan is, in my oppinion a superior product to polyethylene and leaches far less than Polyethylene. The toxicity of PBA is nothing compared to the Pthalates and especially Vinyl chloride, hence you do not see PVC used for food containers.
Bottom Line
I will continue to use my Lexan bottles most of the time and my poly bottles when my lexan bottles run out and I dont have a source to refill it. I use soda bottles for hauling water up the cliff because they are cheap tonreplace if I drop one. Still, the toxicity issue is not a dead one because we still find health issues of chemicals after they were once deamed safe. For example the MTBE problem we now have ... but that is another whole thread.
lets just get back to climbing!
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nthusiastj
Feb 2, 2005, 9:17 PM
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Damn! and here I was all ready to partially melt my water bottle then drink out of it!
So you say that if I do this that I may not be able to have kids? Hmm. Where's my bottle?
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ladylayback
Feb 2, 2005, 9:28 PM
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If you're worried about the chemicals leaching out of your Nalgene then maybe you should look at what chemicals are in your toothpaste. You actually put that stuff in your mouth on purpose.
Ignorance is bliss
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ladylayback
Feb 2, 2005, 9:29 PM
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If you're worried about the chemicals leaching out of your Nalgene then maybe you should look at what chemicals are in your toothpaste. You actually put that stuff in your mouth on purpose.
Ignorance is bliss
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 2, 2005, 9:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Its all a matter of survival of the fittest at this point :lol: In a world of reduced sperm counts, erectile dysfunction and endometriosis, I totally agree. For a long time I have believe that the human race is going to make itself sterile from exposure to all this crap. Thank goodness for modern invitro-science and viagra! :P is there something about blueeyedclimber that you're not telling us?
Hey, I wasn't even involved in this. That's not funny! :x
For your information, we have decided not to have any more kids. That's my story and I am sticking to it! And no, I don't need Viagra yet, but if that day comes I will be running for the pharmacy.
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couchwarrior
Feb 2, 2005, 10:25 PM
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I have been unable to get pregnant and all this time I thought it was because I was a man. Turns out it may have too many hot cocoas from my trusty Nalgene!
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stevsop
Feb 2, 2005, 10:35 PM
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Nalgene's website recommends washing your bottle AWAY FROM THE HEATING ELEMENT of the dishwasher.
Iltripp is basically right, Chances are Naglenes are the least of your worries with all the other junk out there. Food -grade lexan is one of the safest plastics in this respect.
That said, retiring a bottle more than a few years old(at least one of you has that old blue and smoke bottle with the panther on the front) might be a good idea as the plastic degrades over time.
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wanderinfree
Feb 7, 2005, 6:39 PM
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alrighty. don't drink hot coffee from my nalgene. got it. but are there any studies on the effects of drinking margaritas from it? 8^)
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plund
Feb 7, 2005, 7:16 PM
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cancer from burned meat....burned meat good for you...
chocolate / coffee / alcohol....good or bad, depending on the study...
Personally I'm more concerned about idiots on the highways, chemicals in the water supply, and hormones / antibiotics in the meat supply than I am about leaching chemicals in my Nalgene...
But that's just me, and I'm a cig smoker so I've already proved my stupidity...
Seems like living will eventually kill ya....
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rckymntneer
Feb 7, 2005, 7:25 PM
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Sheeesh! They're water bottles. They are not coffee pots, cooking pots, thermos's, etc. BTW, I did look at many of the links that were listed at the beginning of this thread. Can't remember how many times I saw wording such as "evidence not sufficient" or "results not consistent" or "facts don't support." etc., etc., etc. I think I'll keep drinking out my my Nalgenes!!!
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rckymntneer
Feb 7, 2005, 7:27 PM
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Oh, and don't look now, but I think the sky is falling too!! :roll:
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canadiangrl
Feb 7, 2005, 7:35 PM
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I drink hot chocolate out of mine, and i've never had any problems, well that i know of, id never stop using them they totally rock and make life so much easier. Doesnt keep stuff nice and hot though, oh well cant win them all
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tnchief
Feb 7, 2005, 7:43 PM
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Regardless of whether this is BS or not, I personally don't have any fetal cells in my body. My question is, what would a fetus (i.e. unborn child) be doing drinking from a heated Nalgene? If you guys want to take this seriously, I would also recommend looking into the effect of the preservatives you eat in almost all packaged food, the growth hormones in most dairy products (weak sauce), and Area 51.
Get a grip.
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jimfix
Feb 7, 2005, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: I think BREATHING is probably just as dangerous as drinking from a Nalgene bottle.
It is, Oxygen is one of the most harmful chemicals you'll ever come in contact with. There's fairly good evidence that it causes the majority of aging, not to mention cam axel rust.
The LD50 for a large mammal (dog probably) with bisphenol A is 6.5g per kg. I doubt your going to see an effect from the trace levels leaching from plastics.
Stop being hypochondriac hippies, you’re exposed to more harmful levels of "nasty" chemicals when you whiff the petrol vapours as you fill you 4X4's.
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scotchie
Feb 7, 2005, 8:22 PM
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Folks, there are so many things out there that could be harmful, in theory, even if though is no conclusive evidence. You are subjecting yourself to a very real (and proven) cancer risk every time you go outdoors in the UV sunlight. We could easily end up becoming obsessive-compulsive trying to keep track of it all. Sometimes you just have to let go.
Life-expectancy in the US in 1900 was 47 years. Now it's 77. Technology has overall been good for our health.
Please don't bring glass bottles to the crags. They tend to break and form sharp objects so close to the ropes.
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zen_alpinist
Feb 7, 2005, 8:23 PM
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Well, I got some emails from a friend recently about this situation.
Here are some actual links to articles and their information cited:
Article
re-hash of above article
This was from about a year ago, not sure what new research has turned up. The basic recomendations the Sierra Magazine makes are these (from the article):
- The #7 bottles (polycarbonate, made from Lexan..check recycle code on bottom) have the potential to leach chemicals during cleaning in a dishwasher (high heat). Worn bottles with visible damage on the inside could also be prone to this, at room temperature. Some claim to have found the BPA chemcial leaching out of brand new, undamaged bottles at room temperature. Therefore you should not use bottles made from #7 plastic (eg: colored Nalgene bottles), especially if a young baby/child or mother (or anyone I suppose). If you do, wash with mild soap and water in the sink.
- The #1 bottles (PETE or PET) which I think are commonly used for gatorade or "bottled" water, should only be used once. Supposedly multiple use can leach a carcinogen.
- Best plastics for food storage and water consumption: #5 (PP, polypropelene), #2 (HDPE) or #4. So the traditional, cloudy white Nalgenes are supposed to be fine for you.
So I look around the kitchen, and all of my other plastic food storage containers, bowls, etc. are rated #5. Coincidence? Not sure at this time.
Also to think about, since this chemical BPA is supposedly linked to causing Down Syndrome in babies, apparently there were a number of baby food bottles made from Lexan (#7)....the article mentions that all of those types of bottles have been "quietly removed from the market".
Take it how you will. I'll probably still use the colored bottles I have for now, but probably upgrade to the old standby white ones. I feel they are more durable anyway. I'd have to say the jury is still undecided on this case, so do whatever you feel is best.
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jules
Feb 7, 2005, 8:57 PM
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The obvious solution is to quit having babies.
We're freaking overpopulated enough as it is. Maybe they should start putting more infertility chemicals in stuff.
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csgambill
Feb 7, 2005, 9:13 PM
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In reply to: "...This is no small matter, since hormone disruptors are chemicals that interfere with the way hormones guide fetal development and later growth. As reported in Current Biology April 1, 2003, bisphenol-A exposure in pregnant mice resulted in errors in fetal cell division, though researchers caution that the same may not happen in humans...."
So, the moral of the story is: Don't drink boiling water out of your Nalgene if you're pregnant, nursing, a baby or the size of a mouse.
Seriously people, if you're drinking enough water to do any damage, your kidneys are probably in good enough shape to handle any hormone disruptors. If you're drinking enough water to get enough contaminants to do any damage, you're probably already dead of hyponatremia.
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social_climber
Feb 7, 2005, 9:18 PM
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Everything causes cancer and kills your sperm now. But that doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to lower the risk and level of exposure. 1 cancer is better than 5.
Therefore I dislike the argument of, everything else is gonna kill you anyways. If you stubbed your toe would you say "oh well, my foot hurts anyways" and then stub the rest of your toes?
Anyways, I use Nalgene, but if there's another alternative I'll take it. I also no longer microwave any food in plastic, as that's definitely a source of heat. A little inconvenient, but it doesn't do any harm.
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horribulas
Feb 7, 2005, 10:52 PM
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Registered: Jan 15, 2005
Posts: 20
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ummm, shouldn't you be more worried about whether the rope was going to snap and throw you to your death, over if the sun was getting your nalgene to hot. Be slightly more practical.
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crimpandgo
Feb 7, 2005, 11:07 PM
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Registered: Apr 15, 2004
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I dont think its an urban legend or BS. Simple fact is that all materials outgas or shed. I have seem similar articles about your pots at home. All the materials they use to make you pans non-stick would really make you wonder..
But I think you have to put this in perspective as many people have already suggested. First off, companies are very protective of lawsuits and will WARN you about anything remotely dangerous. The consumer has to decide the degree to which they are at risk. For example, how much outgassing can your bottle really be doing? it doesn't continuously outgass. If it did eventually the bottle would just disappear.
Simple fact is your nalgene bottle is probably better for you in the long run than the "throw-away" bottles because you continue to use it after the initial outgassing process stops. In contrast if you use bottled water, you are using a new bottle each time. And each time it will outgas, exposing you to greater levels over time.
anyway, just some thoughts
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thegreytradster
Feb 8, 2005, 12:35 AM
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Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
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Nagalines can only be dangerous when filled with dihydrogen monoxide.
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scubasnyder
Feb 8, 2005, 12:46 AM
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Registered: Oct 3, 2003
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Mine doesnt ever get hot i guess i dont have to worry, it hasnt hurt me yet so im stickin with mine, there could be things that are a lot worse why worry about chemicals leaching, there would probably have to be a large amount of chemicals that leach to even affect you anyways
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alderak
Feb 8, 2005, 12:51 AM
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Registered: Nov 18, 2003
Posts: 155
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anyone here microwave leftovers on plastic plates or in plastic bowls?
really though, if my nalgene is killing me through routine use, then I guess your just never safe....
none of us are getting out of this life alive... :roll:
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scotchie
Feb 8, 2005, 2:06 AM
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Registered: Jul 31, 2004
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In reply to: Also to think about, since this chemical BPA is supposedly linked to causing Down Syndrome in babies, apparently there were a number of baby food bottles made from Lexan (#7)....
Hate to put on my conehead cap again, but Down Syndrome is a genetic disorder. Anything you do after the baby is born (or conceived for that matter) won't make a difference.
If you are really concerned you might want to avoid drinking out of those banned #7 baby bottles while pregnant.
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jimfix
Feb 8, 2005, 2:49 AM
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In reply to: Quote: Also to think about, since this chemical BPA is supposedly linked to causing Down Syndrome in babies, apparently there were a number of baby food bottles made from Lexan (#7).... Hate to put on my conehead cap again, but Down Syndrome is a genetic disorder. Anything you do after the baby is born (or conceived for that matter) won't make a difference.
Although technically correct, it is possible for chemicals/ environmental to affect genetics at/near conception.
However, it has resently proven that research causes cancer in rats.
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scotchie
Feb 8, 2005, 3:10 AM
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In reply to: However, it has resently proven that research causes cancer in rats.
I like that quote.
Thinking about all this has been causing headaches in this human (me). Time for a beer. :-)
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fear
Feb 8, 2005, 3:28 AM
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Registered: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 475
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Timex watches have recently been found deadly too. Every day of exposure reduces your life expectancy by almost 24 hours. But only in the state of California so far according to the new labels.
-Fear
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curt
Feb 8, 2005, 3:36 AM
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
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Haha. Hilarious. And masturbation will also cause you to get warts on your palms. Hahahahaha.
Anyone know how to remove those things?
Curt
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kachoong
Feb 8, 2005, 3:47 AM
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Registered: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 15304
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....and that one-legged ducks swim in circles....
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csgambill
Feb 8, 2005, 6:41 PM
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Registered: May 3, 2004
Posts: 607
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Also a duck's quack doesn't echo.
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