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punkclimber52
Nov 24, 2005, 4:03 AM
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This has been a huge debate in az regarding the closure of the queen creek climber area. But i just read this article and i just gotta pass it on. READ THIS, its not just az, its nation wide.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1123landsale-ON.html
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tnmountainman
Nov 24, 2005, 4:13 AM
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And you are surprised that the government is trying to! Where have you been?
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tnmountainman
Nov 24, 2005, 4:14 AM
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And you are surprised that the government is trying to! Where have you been?
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punkclimber52
Nov 24, 2005, 4:17 AM
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just read the damn article. this just happened last nite.
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leapinlizard
Nov 24, 2005, 4:48 AM
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Times like these require people like us to write to our representatives and lawmakers.
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gunksgoer
Nov 24, 2005, 4:52 AM
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Hmm I think its time to send Bill Gates an access fund letter...
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superbum
Nov 24, 2005, 5:31 AM
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fck Jesus...What Would Abbey Do????
OUTRAGED!!!!!
I think it's about time for some serious fckin monkeywrenching....
vicsahobo@hotmail.com w/ ideas...
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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superbum
Nov 24, 2005, 6:03 AM
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bump
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 24, 2005, 6:10 AM
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fixed link so you can clik it...
http://www.azcentral.com/...1123landsale-ON.html
yeah - this is huge. huge.
But - can we all pool our money and get mineral rights on all the crags as well ? At least some ? If they give it away to the companies, they have to sell it to us and the Access Fund as well or its lawsuit time with the ACLU, right ?
yeah. this one could be huge.
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superbum
Nov 24, 2005, 6:28 AM
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yes, save the crags, but save all the other forgotten useless wasteland as well. Save all of the nothing!
Leave it as it WAS. -Abbey
We stand for what we stand on. -Abbzug
O pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
That I am meek and gentle with these butchers. -Shakespeare
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kalcario
Nov 24, 2005, 7:33 AM
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Fix the title of your thread from "The Government" to "The Republican Party" and you'll have it right. Neither the Queen Creek debacle, or the land patent bill you're complaining about, or drilling in ANWR, or 10,000 other relaxed pollution standards, would be an issue if the Dems were in control. Writing your congressman has ZERO chance of affecting anything as long as the Repubs control the House, the Senate, and the Dept of the Interior. The only tactic that has any chance in Hell of succeeding is to vote the Repubs out of office. Period. Once that happens, *then* you write letters.
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overlord
Nov 24, 2005, 8:25 AM
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it took you kinda long to figure this out...
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 24, 2005, 3:33 PM
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une bumpo...
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dingus
Nov 24, 2005, 4:03 PM
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Keep your eye on Pombo. He's Chairman of the House Resources Committee and he has swing weight. He makes his living in the Republican party as hatchet man against all things environmental. This is just one of his many, many efforts to undermine 30+ years of environmental protection progress. He taps a conservative farm based constituentcy coupled with rapid growing suburbs (and their builders, lol). The farmers are some of the more affluent in the country with rich central valley corporate farms streaking off in all directions. The builders are the largest in the nation.
Most of these big farming concerns have bean counters focused on bottom lines. That relentless efficiency makes them natural enemies of the environmental. The housing tract builders have always been enemies as well. Pombo, in his efforts to gain wins for his base, has allied himself with similar concerns from other regions, representing timber, mining, oil and gas, well, you know the drill. Those concerns are represented in or near his district as well. It is an unholy alliance as far as the environmental movement is concerned.
Know thy enemy:
http://shiftingbaselines.org/.../images/topdogs2.jpg
http://www.richardpombo.com/bio.htm
http://www.refpub.com/...archives/000030.html
THE POMBO RECORD
Richard Pombo has voted against the environment more than nine out of ten times since 1997. Campaign finance records show that he is deeply indebted to his friends in Agribusiness, construction, and the oil and gas industries.
League of Conservation Voters Environmental Scorecard:
* 107th Congress (2001-2002): 9%
* 106th Congress (1999-2000): 3%
* 105th Congress (1997-1998): 10%
Pombo Fundraising in the 2001-2002 cycle, from www.OpenSecrets.org:
* $173,826 from Agribusiness, including $8,000 from Forestry and Forest Products interests, and $9,000 from the tobacco industry.
* $12,500 from the construction industry.
* $23,350 from energy and natural resources industry, including $16,350 from oil and gas interests.
http://www.luntzspeak.com/luntzie3.html
DMT
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 24, 2005, 4:22 PM
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dingus - you rock dude...great post
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el_guapo
Nov 24, 2005, 4:24 PM
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Just in case.....anyone want to start a mining corporation with me?
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 24, 2005, 4:34 PM
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In reply to: Just in case.....anyone want to start a mining corporation with me?
yes ! and we can call it the American Climbers Mining Enterprise...oh wait, we might need a different name....
seriously - we should look into how this law can be exploited by our side of the concerns, just in case we can't derail it...
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feanor007
Nov 24, 2005, 5:31 PM
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Maybe the rest of the nation should jump on board with the access revolution taking place in the south. climber owned land. in the red alone climbers own muir valley, roadside, torrent falls and several southern region crags near the motherload i've never been to. in fact, i havn't climbed non-climber owned land in about a year, baring one day at fortress. in the rest of the south we have laurel knob, kings bluff and a quite a few others i can't remember. All in all, a good bit of land that will be opened for climbing indeffiantly, regardless of action in washington or where ever.
just my 2 cents
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punkclimber52
Nov 24, 2005, 6:21 PM
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bump
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superbum
Nov 25, 2005, 12:06 AM
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bumpity bump bump
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dig_scott
Nov 25, 2005, 1:16 AM
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2% of americans own %98 of the wealth.
It's very hard to compete against $2.5 billion in revenues.
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erclimb
Nov 25, 2005, 2:12 AM
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hmmmm...do you want to protect the environment or protect your climbing? if you oppose drilling in anwr shouldn't you also oppose bolting in j-tree? and mountain biking in moab? and ski slopes anywhere? and free range beef? are you willing to give up all the wonderful things produced by the mining industry (such as the circuits that allow you to post to rc.com)? or can you suggest another source for those materials?
ok, i'm a republican...most of the people i climb with are democrats...these democrats choke when i say that i support drilling in anwr, and they're not interested in my reasoning...now the park service (in conjunction with the nature conservancy) has proposed restricting climbing at our local crag to protect some "rare" plants, and these same democrats are howling and calling the park service (and the nature conservancy) fascists and demanding something be done to stop the enviro-zealouts
i don't know...i'm just amused by the irony
as for the issue in az, the statement in the article that caught my attention was: "Even some opponents concede the idea doesn't sound nefarious"...republicans also like to climb and kayak and hunt and fish and want to protect the environment...they also want to make sure people have jobs and someplace to live
alright...fire away
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 25, 2005, 3:11 AM
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In reply to: hmmmm...do you want to protect the environment or protect your climbing? if you oppose drilling in anwr shouldn't you also oppose bolting in j-tree?
apples to potatos dude - the ANWR is one of the LAST UNSPOILED PLACES (tm) we've got.
As such, it gets placed on a pedestal in my book. I fail to see the logic in your arguement with this one...Are you tellnig me bolting is as invasive as mineral extraction in an environmentally sensitive area ? Can I see your work, and the metrics involved ?
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crankingclimber
Nov 25, 2005, 5:19 AM
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Agreed paganmonkeyboy - drilling in ANWR is on a completely different scale of environmental damage compared to isolated rare plants and bolting in J tree - it's apples to potatoes. One is widespread environmental rape, the other is the possibility (and that's POSSIBILITY, not DEFINITE) of isolated damage to plants, or to pieces of rock. And even that's debatable - going into the whole bolting issure or to just how many plants your democrat friends are actually endangering. Probably, if they stick to trails, and don't throw plants off of climbs, they're causing minimal damage. Bolting in J tree - does that constiute enviormental damage? Or is it more damage to a climbing style? That's slightly ambiguous, depending on your view. Drilling in ANWR isn't ambiguous - it's going to be destructive, period. Is that destruction worth it? Don't know, that's up to you - but don't compare unrelated subjects - false comparison = a plain and simple logical fallacy.
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desrtrockrat
Nov 25, 2005, 6:49 AM
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Seems the main issue and is the idea that growth is perpetual. It isn't. And most intelligent people know that. So how do we stop growth... well thats the million dollar question and the answer will come in time. Until then the chances of us saving wild places are about zilch as most people will consistently desire money and a warm place to sleep over some beautiful places that they rarely get to interact with because there too busy making that money to feel comfortable. Climbers tend to often break from this mode of thought, but by no means are we the patron saints what is best for the environment. Camping issues in the most popular areas are a testament to what we are capable of.
Comparing one environmental issue to another gets complicated and confusing and just fills our time with unproductive, argumentative conversation. If you think that selling off all our land for the purpose of growth is the future of this country or world, than I'm sorry you feel that way, and I hope that someday, something happens that slows this crazy capitalist machine down. Will Monkey wrenching work..?.. Maybe a bit. If done well and intelligently maybe more than just a bit. It might help the soul more than anything. Its certainly more effective than these nonsense, time consuming letters that we all talk about sending.
In the mean time Ill keep to the rocks and hope that the last few wild places that I love stay relatively safe from the madness that we all call home. I gotta go... the coyote's are crying at the moon.
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