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winkwinklambonini
Sep 23, 2002, 3:55 PM
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I've recently adapted a new trick for rappelling. On fairly casual multipitch routes where I'm not going to get epiced, I carry a 60m length of 3mm chord for rappelling. It fits into a camelback of even under a shirt. To set it up, put the end of the rope through the rings and tie an eight on a bight, tie the pull chord to the loop and connect the loop to the standing end of the rope with a locker. then rap on the single strand. If I were to do it again however, I'd go to a marine supply store and get 3mm static line, better for pullin.
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geezergecko
Sep 23, 2002, 4:28 PM
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Geez Wink, will ya quit with the provocative postings, puhlease
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data118
Sep 23, 2002, 4:41 PM
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http://www.canyoneering.net/techniques.html
Please do not wrap your rope around a tree and rappell. Retrieving your rope this way cause rope burn and damage the tree. Instead checkout the links above for alternatives.
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orangekyak
Sep 23, 2002, 4:41 PM
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i like your idea a lot. might try that out. could you give me an idea how much that cord costs?
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winkwinklambonini
Sep 23, 2002, 5:10 PM
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I've seen good static line at west marine for 50 cents a foot, gear stores have stretchy stuff for about 30 cents. Multiply by 200 ft.
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krustyklimber
Sep 23, 2002, 5:53 PM
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I'd rather spend the same $60-100 on a real rope!
Jeff
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winkwinklambonini
Sep 23, 2002, 7:23 PM
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somehow i got a deal at EMS, 30 bucks
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wlderdude
Sep 23, 2002, 8:15 PM
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I did that once with 100 ft of tubular webbing at Owl Rock in Arches NP.
I didn't have a second rope for the rappel, so I just tied all my webbing together into one long piece. I tied a ring on the end so that the knot would not get sucked into the chains and get stuck. Worked great! I guess you could do it with properly rigged pro, too.
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geezergecko
Sep 23, 2002, 8:59 PM
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3mm static cord has a tensile strength of 180kg = 400 lbs = less than 2kn. Would you really rap on a single strand of shoelace cord? Am I the only one who sees the stupidity of Wink's suggestion?
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orangekyak
Sep 23, 2002, 9:11 PM
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yes, you are the only one. try re-reading the suggestion.
hint - pull cord
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mountainmonkey
Sep 23, 2002, 9:11 PM
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old gecko dude - you missed the point of his set up - you DO NOT rapell down the 3mm cord. You rap down the single rope and only use the 3mm cord to pull it.
However, I do think it is a stupid idea. You risk getting the knot stuck in the rap station and on the way down. The advantage with two full strenght ropes is that as long as you have both ends you can rapell/weight the lines/jug back up. The only advantage to the pull cord is that you carry less weight - but is 5 extra pounds really that big of a deal on a CASUAL multipitch route? Not to mention about the difficulty of pulling a knot over an edge with a 3mm cord from 200 feet away, static or not.
hopefully you know how to prusik back up...
casey
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horatio_felacio
Sep 23, 2002, 9:11 PM
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i think everyone sees the stupidity of your remark.
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geezergecko
Sep 23, 2002, 9:20 PM
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I stand corrected. My apologies.
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wigglestick
Sep 25, 2002, 2:08 PM
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I thought about this for awhile trying to think about why this is not an accepted practice. I came to the realization that this is a bad idea. It might work in an emergency but if you do it everytime you do a long rappel you will be asking for an epic. First of all when you are descending you are relying on the knot jamming up against the anchor. This may not always work. This will not work with cold shuts or open slings. I also think that if you tie an overhand or a figure-eight on a bight you are increasing the probability that the knot will "roll over" which is bad if you don't leave a long enough loop end. Also it is highly likely that this knot will get stuck in the anchor and or in a crack while you are pulling it down. So you really lean into pulling that 3mm cord. But it breaks because it only has a breaking strength of about 350 lbs. Not only did you fall on your ass but now you are screwed and have no way of getting your main rope down.
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winkwinklambonini
Sep 25, 2002, 5:36 PM
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Rappeling is the time when you are most exposed to an epic. ANY knot could get stuck on the way down, and if it does, it's nice to have the rope you already pulled to lead back up with. So the standard is of course, to bring another rope. However there are times when this is not nessessary, such as face climbs where the anchors aren't ever too far from the edge of the ledge, and there is nothing for the rope to get stuck in on the way down. At first there was a learning curve concerning how clear the anchor needed to be, and getting it down was tough. One remedy is to lower the knot w/ the biner over the edge, then tie an eight on a bight as a stopper knot(which works the same way as the best knot for tying two real ropes together: a simple figure eight with two ends,PROPERLY DRESSED BEFORE STRESSED) this runs over edges better than anything else.
In addition, if it doesn't work it doesn't come down, and a single line is faster to ascend than two. If done correctly this system works well, but don't try it if your not sure about the climb, or if it really does.
P.S. it is soooo nice to carry one rope!
[ This Message was edited by: winkwinklambonini on 2002-09-25 10:38 ]
[ This Message was edited by: winkwinklambonini on 2002-09-25 10:39 ]
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crzdriver
Sep 26, 2002, 3:22 AM
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I'm not real up on the system, but a friend of mine did the pull cord thing on a big wall last summer. He said it's all cool as long as the rope doesn't have anything to jam on. I'd like to see it work before I try it.
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blindslap
Sep 26, 2002, 4:13 AM
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when using the pull cord, use a grapevine with a metal washer inbetween the cord and the rope. this will gurantee that it doesn't pull through the hangers of chians. I've actually heard of this happening.
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natec
Sep 26, 2002, 4:32 AM
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Wink will die and then he'll figure out that he's an asshole.
The figure 8 is not the way to join two ropes for a rappel. It regularly rolls a low loads and has repeatedly brought the demise of climbers attempting to use this knot instead of an overhand for clearing edges on a rappel.
A retraced figure 8 would be another correct alternative.
Even if dressed and stressed properly the figure 8 (tied with both tails on the same side of the knot similar to the euro death knot (aka overhand) WILL STILL ROLL AT LOW LOADS AND YOU MAY DIE!
Do not trust any advice from WINKWINKLAMBONINI, this guy repeatedly gives deadly advice.
[ This Message was edited by: natec on 2002-09-25 21:33 ]
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mountainmonkey
Sep 26, 2002, 3:37 PM
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If you do a little search on the EDK you will find that it is a good knot IF you use an overhand, properly dress it, and leave long tails. The rope will break before the knot will roll off the ends. There was a test done recently that proves this.
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
You can also use a single overhand on one or both of the tails to stop the knot from rolling. The knot is quik - to tie and untie - and strong.
If you are worried at all, use a figure 8 follow thru and tie the ends off with double fishermans.
casey
[ This Message was edited by: mountainmonkey on 2002-09-26 08:39 ]
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easysteve
Jan 6, 2003, 6:24 AM
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What? If you've ever heard of 550 cord, which is commen to us military folk. It says, not for climbing uses... Think about it, no 3mm military type cord is gonna fit you well, so don't do it.
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philbox
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Jan 6, 2003, 9:06 PM
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I`ve used this system many times however in lieu of 3mm cord I use 7mm static. I feed the rap rope (10.2mm) through the rap rings at the anchor. I then tie a simple overhand on the bite that I clip the 7mm static to. To prevent the 10.2mm rope from pulling through the anchor I tie (in the 10.2mm) an alpine butterfly on the overhand knot side of the rap rings and clip that to my rap line.
This is an entirely acceptable way of rapping and one can even use a grigri to rap with as you are going down a single rope. One must be careful using this system as pulling over 90 degree edges will cause some angst.
...Phil...
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shortfatoldguy
Jan 6, 2003, 10:18 PM
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Better idea: Do what I did and drop subtle hints to your S.O. so that s/he will buy you double nines for Christmas/anniversary/birthday. And use the EDK.
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grayhghost
Jan 6, 2003, 10:54 PM
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why use a 10.2 and a 7 static? why not just use two 9.5 dynamics and play it the old fashoned way with the weight being about equal in both systems. knots reduce the strength of your rope and more and more knots up at the anchors just make life a biatch. play it safe and rap with two REAL ropes.
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rprp
Jan 7, 2003, 4:33 AM
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I've been thinking about using this pull-line set-up, but I haven't yet. I found a web site that sells high-tech cord in several sizes. Of course it would be expensive, but you could use 3mm Kevlar or Spectra for the pull cord. You wouldn't be able to pull hard enough to break it even if you and your partner both yarded on it. The real issue is how well it would resist abrasion and cutting over sharper edges.
Anybody know how Spectra and Kevlar compare to nylon in abrassion resistance?
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winkwinklambonini
Jan 7, 2003, 10:37 PM
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Spectra is wicked resistant to cutting(more so than nylon, kevlar is not. Why people use kevlar for climbing is beyond me. BUT, you can purchase pre-stretch nylon cord for much less, and it's fairly static. Which is what you want.
BTW, it nice to see this thread again, I posted this before I realized many people on this site don't understand when knowledgable people speak.
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