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climbchick
Oct 4, 2002, 2:02 AM
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I'm mad because I ordered a "Trango" flexcam and when I got it the safety leaflet indicated that it was made by Hudy Sport in the Czech Republic. Yeah, maybe I'm a bonehead for not researching it enough before I bought it but Trango's website gives the distinct impression that they make the cams. Under the cam description, they say: We use a double-looped 12mm ultratape sling and the cam lobes are CNC machined from 7075 aluminum extrusions, allowing us to control tolerances . . . . Other companies, like BD and Metolious, make their own stuff so I just assumed Trango did too as nowhere do they indicate otherwise. I've emailed them twice asking them to explain themselves and wanting to know who is responsible if the cam is faulty and so far they haven't answered. Maybe they realized that they are on the verge of false advertising.
Well, there are various reasons why I prefer not to own a cam made by a company I never heard of in a country I know nothing about.
So . . I think I'm going to return the cam and get something else. And I won't be buying anything else from Trango, not just because of this but also because they haven't bothered to respond to my emails, which really irks me.
What do you guys think about this, am I over-reacting? Do other companies resell hardware and act like they made it themselves? Do you care where your cams are made and tested?
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boltdude
Oct 4, 2002, 2:09 AM
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Many companies use outside manufacturers for gear. This isn't necessarily good or bad.
For instance, Metolius carabiners are made by Lucky in Spain, the Czech gear is sold by tons of companies (Trango, Kong, Rock Empire), and - don't tell your French climbing friends - many Petzl carabiners are actually made in Utah.
I would look at the design, the feel, the apparent workmanship, etc before dismissing cams & hardware made in Czech republic or Korea or wherever.
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wlderdude
Oct 4, 2002, 2:25 AM
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I am confident Trango has Quality control people in the Huddy Sport Facility. Trango is taking responsibilty for the product, so really, they have as much interest in that cam being good as any product they manufacture themselves.
I would not worry about it. Every company outsources stuff. Black Diamond makes their own biners, but their straight gates come from an outside source. They make their own bent gates, though. They certainly don't mine the metal ore, refine it, extrude it, and all that. They ceratinaly don't make the springs.
The gas stations will always use the gas from the nearest refinery, regarless of what station it is. They may put additives in the gas and quality control varries, but the gas is the same. It is areality of business.
The difference between the BD & Metolius cams and the Camp, Kong, Trango & Rock Empire cams (all the same design) is about $20-30. That is the diffence.
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topher
Oct 4, 2002, 2:35 AM
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dont worrie about where its made. almost all companys get there stuff made over seas. like every other product in the world the lowest bidder, builds it, its all economics. as fare as attempting to return it, good luck, i have never found a store that allows you to return, climbing gear. because they dont know if its been damaged or not. one more reason to got to your local shop, so you can look and touch and play before you buy!
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johnhenry
Oct 4, 2002, 5:51 AM
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Climbchick,
i can empathize with your point. For instance, there is one eastern european company that is selling cams that are marketed to us under at least five different names. On the other hand, I have been watching the cam market for about fourteen years and never have their been such a wide variety of cheap, great cams. We have these obscure manufacturers to thank.
The customer service(or lack there of) of climbing wholesalers is appalling. if this is your primary bummer than I would say send that sucker right back. But dont rule out these new cams. If you want something cheap but manufactured by a name brand, i suggest Clog cams. They are identical to friends(except cam stops), made by Wild Country, and are $30. Rock on, John
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kman
Oct 4, 2002, 6:24 AM
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Nice of them to get back to you...the bastards
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jstreet
Oct 4, 2002, 7:09 AM
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If you look at hudy's web site ( www.hudy.cz ) it appears that they do a lot of manufacturing for other big companies including Petzl, La Sportiva, Grivel, Camp and Rock Empire among others. Maybe someone who can read their language or knows more about the company can verify.
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climbchick
Oct 4, 2002, 2:49 PM
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Thanks for all the responses. From what's been written here, and in a couple of PMs that I received, I gather that this whole thing is not as outrageous as I thought. I'm going to keep the cam and try it out this weekend. As far as I can tell, it looks well-made, etc, but I'm not exactly an expert. I'm still not happy with Trango but bad customer service isn't enough for me to go through the bother of returning the cam. The other companies that I've dealt with directly, especially Black Diamond, have very good customer service, so I'll most likely stick with them in future. I wrote to Metolius to doublecheck that my fat-cam was made here, by them, and they told me they make all their own cams right in Oregon (I got a response in less than 24 hours).
JohnHenry, I would really like to know which cams are being sold under five different names??
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natec
Oct 4, 2002, 3:03 PM
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Climbchick,
For starters the Hudy Sport cams are being sold under at least 5 different names.
Trango-Hudy-Robots-Acme-Kong.
They are safe and reliable. Don't be phased by them being outsourced. If Trango was manufacturing them on their own, the cams would be much more expensive because of the costs being higher.
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rocknpowda
Oct 4, 2002, 3:07 PM
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Your over-reacting. However if it is the same as a KONG cam with a loop in the cable you should take it back just becuase they suck. (or at least the old ones did)
[ This Message was edited by: rocknpowda on 2002-10-04 08:10 ]
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tcollins
Oct 4, 2002, 3:09 PM
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I was just researching cams a little and I would say that the ACME cams are made by the same company. I can't say this for sure, but the design and spects are almost identical.
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punk
Oct 4, 2002, 3:21 PM
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I don’t know about u all,
But when I buy my pro I will go with the best I can…and even if it means that I will have to shad $100 more for me there is only 4 cam manufactures BD, WC, CCH and Metolius and those are the one I own …u know what u getting and they all have insurance ( I don’t think that Trango have insurance)
Im just looking for the highest standards and reputation …I think my LIFE and peace of mind worth it
[ This Message was edited by: punk on 2002-10-04 11:00 ]
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sinorock
Oct 4, 2002, 3:37 PM
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Some name brand Italian chalk is actually made in China. You know you pay more than two bucks for a chalk ball. But when I was in China last month, I paid 20 cents for the same stuff.
Globalization. The greedy capitalists
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tradklime
Oct 4, 2002, 3:42 PM
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Those cams are best value for the price in my opinion. Also, they are just as good as any cam out there, just different features. The only thing I would say is the the ones from acmeclimbing.com are less expensive. That's where I would purchase them from.
Feel good about your purchase though.
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winkwinklambonini
Oct 4, 2002, 5:52 PM
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personaly,
I don't like being above gear that I'm not totally confident in. If I had any doubts, nobody could convince me that I should trust anything. It's like someone telling you to climb when you don't feel it.
Don't do it
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rocknpowda
Oct 4, 2002, 6:09 PM
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All the cams out there are going to hold you if you put them in right. The last cams I bought, were some off brand that I got for $30 a piece-probably made in Checkloslovakia or Kazakstan or something but I love them and I'd definitely buy more. They are pretty much the same cams you see here:
http://www.stoneageclimbing.com/?source=Overture
I don't think they have full strength cam stops but In 8 years of trad- and aid- climbing I have never placed a cam passively and I don't ever plan on having cam stops save my ass.
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bigwalling
Oct 5, 2002, 1:49 AM
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The black diamond arrow pitons are the exact same as camps. But camps only cost 6-7 bucks. Where as the BDs cost 13.50!
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twrock
Oct 6, 2002, 1:07 AM
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I don't have the article (Outside mag I believe) or exact quote anymore. But Ray Jardine said that price of modern cams were way above what they should be. He mentioned that they simply are not that difficult to make. That article was before Hudy and the others began manufacturing them (including "apollodorus" giant cams). Maybe we are finally seeing cams at the prices they should be.
After doing the net research, I bought the Acme cams solely because I determined they were the same as the Tango cams (and others), but I could save quite a bit on a "generic" name. If I could buy them "factory direct" I'd do that. Building up an aid rack is way expensive.
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atg200
Oct 8, 2002, 4:10 PM
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Trango cams are fine - the hands and thin hands sized pieces especially are some of my favorite cams I own. The poor customer service is a real surprise - Malcolm Daly has personally written back to me about a few comments I've made about the B52 and the Trango cams, and he is also active on the climbingboulder mailing list when people talk about Trango there.
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rockprodigy
Oct 8, 2002, 4:56 PM
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It's interesting how many people who have responded, "oh, yeah, those cams are bomber, don't worry about it." How do you claim to know that??? Have you tested these things to failure? Are you saying they look good?? The space shuttle Challenger looked good too!
When you pay $30 more for a BD cam you're paying for engineering expertise and quality control, most importantly you're paying for a reputation. If one BD cam were to fail anywhere in the world, it would irreversibly damage their reputation, so they do everything they can to ensure that doesn't happen. Can you say the same about this phantom company in Czechoslavakia? Where do they get their materials? Where did their engineers go to college? Are they ISO 9000 certified? How precise are their manufacturing tolerances? How precise is their test equipment? None of that stuff is regulated...if you want to buy cheap chalk, that's cool, but not stuff you're trusting your life to.
If I were you, and I bought something from Trango, that I thought they manufactured, I'd be pissed too, and I'd get my money back. If they responded and explained themselves, I'd be willing to forgive, but ignoring you is totally unacceptable!
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drector
Oct 8, 2002, 5:15 PM
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"It's interesting how many people who have responded, "oh, yeah, those cams are bomber, don't worry about it." How do you claim to know that??? Have you tested these things to failure? Are you saying they look good?? The space shuttle Challenger looked good too!"
The Trango web site shows the letters CE along with other sprecifications on the cams. I'd say that qualifies as "knowing that they are bomber... tested to failure" Unless of course I totally don't understand the CE certification or if Trango is using "CE" to mean Creative Engineering. CE might not require the level of testing done by some companies but I think it is very meaningful in the discussion of 3rd party equipment being sold under a brand name.
Dave
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rockhanger
Oct 9, 2002, 2:41 PM
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When Malcom voiced his concern about the poor customer service, did he bother to explain why they represent themselves as a manufacture? Many companies, who manufacture, have gone off-shore with some products in order to control costs and compete. They will convieniently not inform us of this fact, when we think we are buying a product made by them. I recently found out that Trango does not make ANYTHING! Every product is imported and they are only a distributor of product made in several countres, except the U.S. I cannot support a company that I feel has mislead me for years.
Truth in advertising also applies to how you represent yourself to your customers.
Just my thoughts.
Rock
[ This Message was edited by: rockhanger on 2002-10-09 07:43 ]
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csoles
Oct 9, 2002, 3:47 PM
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Lots of rumors and innuendos here from people too lazy to do any research. Yes, Trango is an importer but they also actively work in the design process of nearly all their products. Every company in the climbing world farms out at least some of their products to other manufacturers; this includes BD, Metolius, and any other brand you care to mention.
Malcolm has been designing climbing gear longer than most of the people on this thread have been alive (going back to Lowe Alpine in it's hardgood heyday and Latok). Trango has earned a solid reputation for bringing to the market good products at good prices. It's all fully tested and certified to the same standards as the high-priced brands. Unlike some of the newer no-name importers (who won't be around in a couple years), Trango has always been very involved with product development, not just slapping a label on an import. And they have a long history of supporting the climbing community, unlike some others.
This is a fine company, run by climbers with decades of experience, and bashing it just makes you look foolish. Which doesn't mean everything they sell is perfect, but that's true of all the other brands too.
[ This Message was edited by: csoles on 2002-10-09 08:57 ]
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rocknpowda
Oct 9, 2002, 4:22 PM
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To the poster who says that BD cams are better/safer than others. I know a guy who did have one fail and it was placed well. Did it ruin their reputation? NO
The reason you pay $30 more per cam is becuase they are made here in america not that they are tested so much more extensively than those made out of the country or the quality of the materials is so far superior. You don't think that the company, distributor or manufacturer, that you bought that $30 cam from is just as legally liable as BD if one of their cams blows due to manufacturer error? They don't want to kill people they just know how to make their stuff more inexpensively. Charlet Moser, Petzl, and alot of other well known stuff is made in Europe. Checkloslovakia is in Europe. Does this make Petzl and Charlet Moser stuff as suspect as the cams by trango? NO. because they carry the same CE ratings as BD or any other company that you people blindly trust because their from america or some well-known european country.
Sorry about the rant but you people need to get real. Climbing companies don't want to make gear that will kill climbers, no matter where in the world they are located.
The original poster doesn't get much sympathy from me and I doubt they would return the cam(s) you bought becuase they will work fine for the purpose you bought them-there is nothing wrong with them.
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mcsosar3456
Oct 9, 2002, 4:58 PM
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everyone knows the more you pay for gear the safer you will be. duh.
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