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lobito
Nov 15, 2002, 2:23 AM
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Consider the following situation: you climb a mountain on a multi-pitch route (say like 10 pitches or so), there are no permanent rappel anchors and there's no other way down from the top. What do you do?
The only way I can think of is to reverse the ascent: one climber downclimbs / is lowered and places protection while the other one belays from the top. Then the lower climber sets up a belay station and belays the upper climber while he downclimbs and removes the pro. But this sounds too crazy to me, you need good downclimbing skills and moreover you have to trust the other guy's placements. Or you just rappel off and leave a couple of nuts at each station? You don't run out of pro?
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bradbaker
Nov 15, 2002, 2:40 AM
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Rap, leaving as little gear as possible. I've bailed from plenty of routes to have experience with this situation. :-) The cheapest way to safely retreat is to sling blocks, horns, chockstones, trees, etc with webbing or parts of your cordalette. This with a combination of nuts/hexes when absolutely necessary can get you off just about anything safely (if you know what you're doing) without major donations to the booty god.
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tradclimber2
Nov 15, 2002, 2:46 AM
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Heavens to Mergatroid!! I hope I never get in that situation. Your idea of downclimbing is used sometimes, but the inherent dangers make it a real tough choice, IMHO. THis is an excellent reason to PRACTICE downclimbing on easier routes and in the gym. I have had to downclimb some routes and each time was glad I practiced beforehand. Depending on the difficulty of climb/downclimb, I might be more inclined to try rapping off webbing slung over a flake, horn, or set an anchor with at least 2 pieces of pro and rap off it. BUT, I would hope this happened because of a serious 'off-route' situation, and not because one did not check out the decent for the particular climb.
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timpanogos
Nov 15, 2002, 3:57 AM
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Man, I have got to get some cowbells and get proficient at setting them!
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micronut
Nov 15, 2002, 4:34 AM
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Many times if you are climbing the "normal" route on a peak, it's also the line of decent, and you will retrace your steps, downclimbing with raps when nessesary.
Two routes that immeditely come to mind, U-Notch to the summit of North Palisade in the Sierra, and Mt. Sir Donald, NW ridge in B.C.'s Selkirks. I down climbed both these routes with minimal rappels, although they both were festooned with slings.
[ This Message was edited by: micronut on 2002-11-14 20:37 ]
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duskerhu
Nov 15, 2002, 10:03 AM
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Well, I'll say this much...
1" tublular webbing dude!
It's relatively S.O.P. (Standard Operating Procedure) to leave tied webbing in strategic areas while rapping off. There will also be situations where you may need to leave a couple nuts or hexes with biners. Of course you'd rather leave the webbing at about $0.35 a foot, but nuts and hexes aren't that expensive that you can't easily replace them too.
The other option is that there is sometimes an easier route to downclimb than the one you just came up. Just make sure you absolutely know where you are going BEFORE you get there!!! It's part of the adventure... Preparation!
Live Free!
Play Hard!
Climb On!
duskerhu
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tradguy
Nov 15, 2002, 12:29 PM
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Yeah, bring alot of webbing, or be prepared to leave gear. If you had 2 60m ropes, you could maybe get down with fewer raps than you had pitches, but you'll still need to leave something unless you downclimb the whole route, which I personally think would suck big.
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rrrADAM
Nov 15, 2002, 12:56 PM
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If you don't know how to get down from Alpine Routes, then you should 2nd with someone who does. It is much safer to learn from someone who is well versed in this, rather than trying to figure it out after an ascent. A mistake on an Alpine Route, far from civilization can mean a slow and lonely death.
Chock stones, trees, bushes, horns, etc... These can all be tied off with webbing. (I use pieces of retired lead ropes for this very thing.)
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rockprodigy
Nov 15, 2002, 3:41 PM
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If it's hard enough that you had to belay on the way up, you're not going to be able to downclimb fast enough. Bring gear to rappel: lots of webbing, rap rings, old stoppers and maybe some pitons...but make sure you know what you're doing if you're placing pitons (it doesn't sound like you do).
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micronut
Nov 15, 2002, 4:01 PM
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Sometimes an epic is just part of the game. I met three Coloradians in the Bugaboos about five years ago who had just bailed from the Becky/Chinourd on S. Howser. They got 15 pitches before the afternoon thunder spanked them. They started bailing, setting stations. Their ropes got sucked into a crack and lost. They had one 50m, 7mm haul line left, and were limited to 25m raps. Well, they made it down, but haad to leave their whole rack on the mountain to do it.
They were off to Calgary to get more gear at MEC, then up to the Rockies. It's all part of the game.
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rockprodigy
Nov 15, 2002, 4:06 PM
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Sound like they need to learn about "failing upwards".
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brutusofwyde
Nov 16, 2002, 12:58 AM
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> Consider the following situation: you
> climb a mountain on a multi-pitch route
> (say like 10 pitches or so), there are no
> permanent rappel anchors and there's no
> other way down from the top. What do you
> do?
Rap off. Leave slings where necessary, leave pro where necessary, preferably pins or passive nuts.
In the case of NE Ridge Bugaboo Spire, downclimb the Kain Route, rapping where necessary.
On routes I establish, sometimes leave fatty bolts where necessary for future parties.
Brutus
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stevematthys
Nov 16, 2002, 5:51 PM
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i would try to rap off using slings around horns and tree's as anchors.
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radistrad
Nov 17, 2002, 4:39 AM
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I pretty much thought that developed routes usually have a decent route or a set rappel. So unless you do the FA you're not real likely to get into this situation and if you do follow the above advice.
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tenn_dawg
Nov 17, 2002, 4:49 AM
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I remember a while back, I used to wonder these kinds of questions. The thing is, if you have to Ask these kinds of questions, then you are not yet ready to take off into that environment.
Keep that in mind as you read everyone's posts, and remember that when the day comes that you are in that situation, you will (or as least Better) know what has to be done.
Even though this site is a great source of information, there are many Way Better places to ask these questions. I would highly suggest reading as much as you can get your hands on. Then take that information and go climb with someone who knows what they are doing. And only then, should you try it on your own.
Oh yeah, remember to enjoy it when you get there!
-Travis
Edited for spelling
[ This Message was edited by: tenn_dawg on 2002-11-16 20:51 ]
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mgoat
Nov 17, 2002, 5:51 AM
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down climbing can get you hurt very badly and plus it sucks
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lobito
Nov 21, 2002, 7:34 AM
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Thanks everyone for the answers... no way am I going to try this ... in the near future at least
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hyhuu
Dec 3, 2002, 8:15 PM
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It depends. There aren't too many routes in the world that go straight up for 10 pitches so you'll need to know how to do both as needed. Rapping down an unknown terrain can lead to a disasterous consequence. Unless the party is doing a FA, heading up without a descending plan sounds unwise to me.
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hallm
Dec 7, 2002, 1:26 AM
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Downclimbing 4th and easy 5th class is mandatory on many alpine and other descents from multipitch climbs. As the last poster noted, you really should be comfortable doing both.
I don't agree with the people who have stated that you should always (or almost always) make a rap. Unless the rating gets pretty difficult, I look at making a rap as my last alternative. There always seems to be more possibility of getting in trouble when I make a rap instead of making a possible downclimb (ropes get stuck, rocks get knocked off, anchors can pull, slings can break, etc.)
When forced to downclimb in a severe situation, belay the weaker climber from the top, placing gear where needed. In this situation, the follower becomes akin to the leader on the way up, as it is that person that is looking at a big whipper if they fall.
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