*cough* *cough* Akira *cough* *cough*

seriously, i dunno about this one... i mean, Realization took Sharma a long, long time to do (and Dave couldn't even do it), and, while there are plenty of people as strong as sharma (fred nicole, rouhling, dave, bernd, klem, the late wolfgang, ect...) to say there is someone THAT much stronger than he, so much so that it is a full 2 grades harder... i dunno.... no one has even confirmed orujo yet, and it seems like no one seriously considers Akira a 9b anymore. And what about Las Ramblas Extension? i haven't heard anything more about that being a possible 9a+.

What about Trad?

So it really makes no difference to the vast majority of us here at RC.com whether Chilam Balam is a 5.15c or not, because most of us will never even dream of climbing that hard.

Because, simply, sport climbing has a higher (and different besides) ceiling than trad climbing, at a level where the very fewest climbers are qualified to judge. The roped climbs on the above list are in the 14d-15a++ range. Current, known trad climbs, being done free, are just not that hard; current (and I suspect future) sport climbing has a higher ratings-difficulty level than trad climbs you'll find these days. Yeah, trads, despite my disclaimer speech, I just said sport climbing is harder than trad climbing. Let's get ready to rumble! :roll: That is, of course, a different thread, que no?

Because, simply, sport climbing has a higher (and different besides) ceiling than trad climbing, at a level where the very fewest climbers are qualified to judge. The roped climbs on the above list are in the 14d-15a++ range. Current, known trad climbs, being done free, are just not that hard; current (and I suspect future) sport climbing has a higher ratings-difficulty level than trad climbs you'll find these days. Yeah, trads, despite my disclaimer speech, I just said sport climbing is harder than trad climbing. Let's get ready to rumble! :roll: That is, of course, a different thread, que no?

it just means i am smart enough to know i am wasting my breath by doing so

this is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve an answer

ok first off: climbsomething, what is your hardest send? hmm?? seriously, be a little honest with yourself. we have some mad strong climbers here, but most of them will just never pull a 5.14d. Steven Jeffery will probably do a v14 some day (i think hardest he has done so far is a v13, i could be wrong). Paul Robinson will climb v15 one day. maybe even some 5.15's. but most of us only dream of being that strong. if u can find 20 people of the thousands of users here who can redpoint 5.14d or do a v14 i will be very very impressed...

secondly, am i not allowed to show a skeptical attitude towards some recently graded climbs (like Chilam Balam), and in the same breath say that in any case it doesn't really matter? It's like saying "I personally think your brother is right and you are wrong, but it really doesn't matter because no one will ever care or know whether Superman would beat Wonderwoman in a fight, they are both really powerful...." (Ok it was a really really crappy analogy.... u get the point...) - i do have an opinion on the grading controversy, but i feel that, in the end, it isn't really worth arguing. that doesn't mean i won't argue it, it just means i am smart enough to know i am wasting my breath by doing so.

*chuckle* Weeeeeeeeee!!!!1

I was including MYSELF in that equation too, but since you're asking me to SPRAY, I'll tell you- 11b is my hardest clean send. I have dogged to 12-. I have always been honest with myself and others about my ability, and the above is in fact the truth. I even have witlesses, er, witnesses. And you said "most" around here, and I did not modify that to say ALL. I do in fact, to further spray, know users from this site that redpoint 13c. In short, however, I was AGREEING with you.

Of course you're allowed to be cynical. So am I. I'm also allowed to take the piss out of the Internet-climbing community and allow likewise in turn, and you're even allowed to say, out of one corner of your mouth, that you're not concerned with grades, and out of the other corner...

Hillary dear, me thinketh those are sport climbs?

So it really makes no difference to the vast majority of us here at RC.com whether Chilam Balam is a 5.15c or not, because most of us will never even dream of climbing that hard. enough ranting though...

The top trad only climbers (if there are any) would never have a prayer of climbing the hardest sport routes. But the top sport climbers could easily climb the hardest trad routes with a bit of work. Think about the players: Hill, Huber(s), Hirayama, Caldwell, Gehrson, Kammerlander, Destiville, Glowacz, blah, blah... even Potter, have all spent a lot of time clipping bolts and most of them have spent the majority of their careers clipping bolts. Huber, in fact, went from a sport only climber (not one crack climb ever) to climbing arguably the hardest traditional free climb in the world in a few months.

first of all, Lynn's background is trad climbing.

secondly, on the hardest trad climbs, one needs technique, strength, power, and endurance. on hard sport climbs, well you can finesse your way through them.

secondly, on the hardest trad climbs, one needs technique, strength, power, and endurance. on hard sport climbs, well you can finesse your way through them

Lynn Hill is a limestone-trained sport climber who lived in the South of France for 10-12 years, was the first woman to do a 5.14, and won World Cup comps like Steffi Graf won Grand Slams. Any American (including Lynn) who has been climbing more than 20 years has a trad background, sport climbing did not exist in this country till '84. And saying that hard sport climbs do not require technique, power and endurance, but only finesse, is just so utterly laughable, and so lacking in any basis in reality, as to render any further posts on this subject by you as at best uninformed and at worst, malicious drivel.

I mean no disrespect, climber1, but it sounds like you don't do much sport climbing...