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nmoroder
Aug 11, 2004, 4:46 PM
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double up on the Petzl Attache...
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dutyje
Aug 11, 2004, 4:47 PM
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I'd swap out one of the piton lockers to put a locker on the friend. Rusty pitons seem scary to me. Also, the right arm of the anchor needs to be tightened up.
People may also say to use lockers all around, and to use two opposite/opposed lockers where the attache is, but I could be convinced it's not necessary. People will also say that you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket by using just one feature (that crack).
I don't like the orientation of the locking biner on the left arm. I would like to see it rotated so that the locking sleeve were facing out. Also, it looks like maybe the biner on the hardware side of the quickdraw could edge load.
All that said, I'd climb on it, assuming the pitons seemed to be OK after closer inspection.
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bishop
Aug 11, 2004, 4:48 PM
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Personally I would have placed a cam in below the bottom pin and clipped that instead of the rusty pin.
What kind of cord is that? #mm?
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crotch
Aug 11, 2004, 4:51 PM
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Looks like the biner on the angle might be loaded over an edge. The cord looks a bit thin if it's perlon. What's the diameter? I'd back up the attache by clipping into one of the other lockers with my rope. Clean lines and relatively simple. Yamnuska??
That pin on the left doesn't look ideal.
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vegastradguy
Aug 11, 2004, 4:58 PM
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i dont think you need to be tying all those knots in your cordlette. get a 20' loop and tie one masterpoint. saves time, energy and does the same thing.
as for the pro- the pitons could be good, but that horizontal orientation creates problems. the top right carabiner is loaded in a bad way. the bottom left carabiner looks funky...
the middle piton looks fine.
the friend looks okay.
you also have alot of cord on that locker. i'd turn it around or get a bigger locker. this problem might also be solved by using the cordlette in the way i mentioned above.
this presents a better opportunity for an anchor than your other post did, though.
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rwaltermyer
Aug 11, 2004, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: People will also say that you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket by using just one feature (that crack).
Yup. Why not the crack in the upper left corner? No pitons in that one :?: :roll:
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keinangst
Aug 11, 2004, 5:15 PM
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I'd completely ignore the far left piton, tie off the other three pieces with a single cordalette (or at least tie the strands together, equalized). That odd multi-angle load on the biner is bugging me.
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paulraphael
Aug 11, 2004, 5:18 PM
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With a crack like that, I don't think you're actually putting your eggs in one basket. It's not like a separate block or flake that could be pried apart ... any failure of the rock at the crack is going to be local. There's no way I can see that rock failing at one piece which would cause the rock to fail at another.
As far as the overall rigging: using an untied cordelette might be a good idea, and it might not. I haven't seen any actual tests done on this kind of setup. The advantage (as you've obviously figured out) is that it makes the cordelette self-equalizing. One disadvantage (as you've obviously figured out, based on the tie-off knots) is the potential for extension and shockloading. But the other potential disadvantage is that the strands of cord can bind under load at the power point biner and burn each other. This posibility has been suggested by people people who have studied and tested anchors more than I have, although I have not seen it actually tested.
So basically, when you tie a self-equalizing cordelette like that, you're using an untested method. This doesn't mean it's unsafe, but it means there's no way (yet) to know for sure. A bit scary, IMO.
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wormly81
Aug 11, 2004, 5:32 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong but I think that cordelette wouldn't be self-equalizing. That slack in the right arm is being generated because of the knots and as such would mean this is not self equalizing. A sling with a sliding X can be tied off to limit extension without compromising its ability to dynamically equalize because it only has 2 legs. With more than 2 legs I don't think its possible to achieve that result.
Anyone else having such thoughts?
Jeff
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markc
Aug 11, 2004, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: People will also say that you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket by using just one feature (that crack). Yup. Why not the crack in the upper left corner? No pitons in that one :?: :roll:
I'm curious about the crack to the upper-left, as well. We don't get a good enough look to tell what might go.
As others have said, the biner on the left piton should be rotated, and the piton doesn't look like it's very deep. There's also slack in the right arm of the anchor. Right off the bat, two of your limbs are less reliable than they could be. This may be more of a personal thing, but I would feel better if 3/4 of my anchor weren't old, rusty pins.
mark
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arschles
Aug 11, 2004, 6:04 PM
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why not just use on of those cords and clip it into every biner, then just tie it off for a loop at the powerpoint? saves cord, and is safer, unless that is some accessory cord, in which case that's a ballsy rap
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brutusofwyde
Aug 11, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: I'd completely ignore the far left piton, tie off the other three pieces with a single cordalette (or at least tie the strands together, equalized). That odd multi-angle load on the biner is bugging me.
Several folks have said they would'nt trust the far left piton, but they haven't said why. For those of you unfamiliar with piton placements, I will address my comments specifically to that part of the anchor:
First and foremost! This piton, a standard chromium-molybdenum 3/4" angle piton, is placed incorrectly. Such pitons, which are somewhat like a "V" in cross section, are designed so that the "point" of the vee (called the "spine" of the piton) is against one side of a crack, and the ends of the two "legs" of the vee are against the other side of the crack, creating a stable, 3-point contact. Placed as it is, the piton is far less secure, and is placed in a way for which it was not designed: only the sides of the "legs" of the vee are in contact with the rock.
Second: In addition to being improperly placed, this piton protrudes from the crack and is not tied off short. This increases the rotational leverage or torque on the piton, making failure more likely.
Finally, the nose of the locking carabiner is clipped into the eye: better to orient carabiners so that the long axis of D-type carabiners is what takes the force. But there is actually little worry about the carabiner failing here: the pin will pull out long before that! (or so it appears from the photo.)
hth,
Brutus of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
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maculated
Aug 11, 2004, 10:52 PM
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Brutus, thanks very much. I was reading this thread and my eyes were getting wider that no one had picked up on the scary left piton situation. You got it. You rock, as always. I gave you a trophy for your post.
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markc
Aug 12, 2004, 1:38 AM
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In reply to: Brutus, thanks very much. I was reading this thread and my eyes were getting wider that no one had picked up on the scary left piton situation. You got it. You rock, as always. I gave you a trophy for your post.
I said the biner should be rotated and the pin wasn't set very deep. As I've never driven a pin I thought that wasn't bad. Can I get a cookie or something?
mark (PM me for my address if you'd like to mail said cookie.)
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qpang
Aug 12, 2004, 4:15 PM
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-I agree with the comments on the left piton, I probably should have just used three points, but I kinda think even a crappy piton is better than nothing.
- Again it's 7mm cord
- I know the biner on the left piton is not oriented properly, this is because the eye of the piton was close to the rock and that was the only way the biner would go. (probably should have just ignored that piton) The poor placement of that piton is probably why there were two others placed there.
- Yes you can make a self equalizing anchor with more than two legs wormly, however I had never thought about the friction of the ropes sliding against each other and melting themselves (thanks paulraphael) perhaps I will go back to using 1 knot for a powerpoint.
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qpang
Aug 12, 2004, 4:21 PM
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Oh ya and regarding the "crack" in the left of the picture. Thats not actually a crack. Just a small depression in the rock. For anyone who hasn't climbed in the Canadian Rockies limestone cracks aren't always that easy to find. thats why all those pitons are there in the first place, cause theres nothing else around that will take any gear.
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wormly81
Aug 12, 2004, 4:45 PM
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I still dont think that the cordelette would be self equalizing. There might be some room for the anchor point to shift around a little, but it would not be equalized in its new position. As you can see with your picture one of the lines generates slack while the others pull tight. That is evidence that it is not self equalizing.
Just look at how the cordelette moves when you are setting it up the normal way. Slack must move through the placement biners from long arms to short arms. Its not like a sliding X in which you can move the powerpoint without having the sling move through placement biners. Check it out for yourself.
Interesting setup though. Got me thinking.
Jeff
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brutusofwyde
Aug 12, 2004, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: For anyone who hasn't climbed in the Canadian Rockies limestone cracks aren't always that easy to find. thats why all those pitons are there in the first place, cause theres nothing else around that will take any gear.
CANADIAN ROCKIES!!!
I nailed it. Where's MY cookie!? :D
imho if you found a solid anchor like this on that choss limestone, you were incredibly lucky. Kudos for backing it up. Hope you scarfed that bunk pin on the left.
Brutus
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crotch
Aug 12, 2004, 5:09 PM
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In reply to: CANADIAN ROCKIES!!! I nailed it. Where's MY cookie!? :D
Hold on a second. I called Yam, early on. I'll give you the rest of the rockies.
Good eye on the angle. It looked like a bottomed bug to me.
edit - White Chocolate Macadamia please.
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markc
Aug 12, 2004, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: edit - White Chocolate Macadamia please.
You're a man who knows his climbing and his cookies. I applaud you.
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rickvena
Aug 12, 2004, 6:58 PM
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I, too am unfamiliar with this use of a cordalette. Why all the knots? Why not just one master(overhand or fig 8)?
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rrrADAM
Aug 12, 2004, 7:21 PM
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The two left biners appear to be acting as levers on the pins... In a situation like this, it would be best to girth-hitch slings or cord to them instead of using biners.
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papounet
Aug 13, 2004, 9:59 AM
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The cordelette setup you seems to be using is bizarre.
As far as I can see, the 2 strands of the leftmost piton are entering the powerpoint biner on the same side.
If that is true, it is entirely possible that, on failure of that point , the cordelette slips on all other strands and the powerpoint "extends".
BAD.
If you had rigged in a squarely manneer all your arms, you would have a knot and the 2 strands entering the biner on opposite side.
If you are attempting to equalize the arms in a sort-of 4-way sliding X, you may have tried to do something like :
strand 1U and strand 1L leave point A and enter PP biner on opposite site,
1u goes ttrough biner on upper side become 2L (strand going to point 2 on the lower side of the PP biner ,
2L becomes 2U through the point
2U goes through the PP biner and becomes 3L
3L goes through point foes down as 3U
3U goes through PP and becomes 4L
4L become 4 U
4U goes thtrough PP and become 1L.
(It similar to ties your shoes, ;-)
This setup can't extend, unless tied by magic can't be equalized with more than 2 pieces, will always equalize 2 pieces on 1 strand.
(You have one strand connecting point 1 to 2, one strand between 1 and 4, one between 2 and 3, one between 3 and 4)
Such a setup would be rather inferior to the tied powerpoint cordelelte approach.
edited to make the question more clear
I am tempted to consider that such a setup can't equalize dynamically.
Trigonometry tells us that it can't
but real life practice between arms that have close angles show us that that small shift from an equalized setup would stay nearly equalized.
The difficulty is in setting up the equalized posture first as it requires fiddling with n-1 knots for equalizing n pieces.
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tattooed_climber
Aug 15, 2004, 1:09 AM
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i know alittle about aid and pitons but the left piton is all wrong.... "U" shaped pitons (like Angle Pitons) should be placed like a tripod (with the spine on one side of the crack, etc) and not 90 degrees from that with each side against the crack (the piton can bend, then become loose and 'POP'!! no pro!)
as well, hard to tell, but the locker on the piton (left) as well looks to be not sitting properly...looks like if a fall was taken, the biner would take unnessassary stress and could bend/break....i can't discrible it, but the piton isn't resting property in the basket on the biner...***this is because of the placement of the piton...IF i had totally no choice and HAD to use that piton, i would have slung it with a runner or webbing gurth hitched
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