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lambone
Feb 14, 2005, 10:04 PM
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This thread is crazy long...might make for a good read if I am ever sick or really bored.
Ron, got that new R+I with you in it...pretty funny...after seeing you with the Mac 10 I will never diss you on thi site again.
I still think some of your controversial techniques were not really well defined in that article though.
Cheers
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 10:05 PM
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Thank you kindly.
Is this the Jim Langford of the Dating Game?
(Just decided to be more careful about who I'm blowing kisses to...)
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 10:12 PM
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Lambone,
the pen is still mightier than the sword (and its a Mac 11, not mine, a piece of crap and only good for nightime shows with tracers. Give me an H&K any day of the week. I like their motto: In a world of compromise some don't.)
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rocknroll
Feb 14, 2005, 10:26 PM
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In reply to: Wow, D.J. and Mr.O working out the wrinkels of past Zion climbing history!!
Hardly working it out. Looks like two kids in a wet sandbox slinging mud at each other.
Which is so unproductive. Forgiveness would be a better strategy. And I have forgiven you Ron. If you read my posts, I said I even have love for you. But I love the real Olevesky. The guy who proposed the lie decector test and came up with the DROP DEAD accronym. Certainly not some watered down version of Ron that conforms with societies norms, because that ain't you. You're greatness is that you are a screaming intellectual who takes his passions and his believes into his own hands and defends them.
Now dear readers, let's turn the other cheek. Let's remember the old adage "Treat people the way you want to be treated" or "Put yourself in Ron's shoes". Here, he has been exposed, and is obviously embarassed by his actions because it is not the way we are supposed to behave. He is an antagonist. Possibly violent with firearms. Holds grudges and takes people to court over them. He is so unpleasent to be around that people won't climb with him. And if you do climb together, you feel like you are walking on eggshells, to the point that for me, it became dangerous.
Who out there in cyberspace would want such things said about yourself? Not I, although I have heard just about every one of those things (except the violence and firearms) said about me. And I have always let them slide right off me because I know the real truth, and I can live with it. Sometimes the rumor is based on true events and I have to accept that I had made mistakes in the past. This is called "growing" (we learned it after "Sharing" in Kindergarten). In the recent years when I have been around Ron, he seems to have grown as well, and I hope that he can laugh at my dropping the racks and my climber bum attitude as a youth as much as I can laugh about the his yelling for the aspetics in the fass nord and (to most people) his unacceptable behavior.
But is it unacceptable? Let's examine how we measure the severity of the damning statements thus told. Just what constitutes negative behavior? Ron, as a tit-for-tat barb, wanted to stab me with my 'apparant' drug use and that I mentioned this fact to cast him in an ill light.
In reply to: How's this for interesting coincidences; while my herbal preference is well documented Mike Strassman who continued to share my roof and rope into the '90s stated on another thread here that he had done "Peruvian marching powder" on Half Dome yet his "account" suggests it was I who carried cocaine in his epic fable. Anybody else notice how often Mike posts in the wee hours of the morning?
Well, that bounced off me as well. I added the comments because most readers find climbing and drug use an ironic combination. Society may see drug use as the evil that it certainly can be, but I have always been responsible with it's use and have no qualms about telling the truth. I said that on that climb I tried the coke as well, freely admitted that I used it on my one-day ascent of half dome and quite possibly, may be pulling on the meth pipe as we speak. Although in my advanced age of 45, drugs have too much of a deliterious effect on me. The early morning posts can be explained by my sleep is not as sound as it used to be and I find myself awake, surfing the internet, spouting in threads like this, and downloading internet porn (another of societies 'evils') at the wee hours of the morning. And in my defense (as long as we are keeping score and NOT forgiving), may I ask how a poor climbing bum could possibly afford the designer drug of the rich and famous? As I remeber, I was at your house when Mr. P gave you the coke he scored from Robbie Dupree. Heck, he could have given it to me. Why keep score? Who cares?
If I was in Ron's shoes I would take the same attitude he's always had. "If they don't like it, F--k, 'em!" Because those idiosyncracies, those measures of civiality and proper behavior, are always subject to interpretation and have such a wide range of latitude you cannot use them as a measurement of what constitutes a bad or good person. And in today's lock-down, tow the line world of hypocracy (Thou shall not Kill, Mr. Bush?), we all could come under scrutiny for the littlest infraction. Ron is not a bad person.
As far as Mr. Jones, I know he speaks the truth. He never has done drugs and I'm sure his memory is better than Ron's or I. For myself, I have already stated that I may have embellished details of a story or filled in blanks in my memory with fiction that resembles the true events. Yes I would take the polygraph, only under the condition that I wouldn't have to pay the fee if I didn't pass. You see, The Busman is broke as usual and my failing memory from all that drug use makes it a crap shoot. Sure Ron, just to prove your point, bring on the lie detector...and then we can sling some more mud back and forth.
Is that what we really want to do?
Well, we can keep score until hell freezes over. But I think we should move in a more virtuous direction. We all need to accept of our past, accept our mistakes and accept that each of us are on different paths, accept that we are always growing. Move on.
It is called Forgiveness.
But for the gods' sake, we all need to cling to those characteristics that make us unique as individuals. Even if it means not conforming to some moral standard. Just don't hurt anyone in the process. Ron is harmless. He has never intentionally hurt anyone. I kept climbing with him for the entertainment value; if I couldn't stand the heat, I would have gotten out of the kitchen.
But this thread has dissolved into two guys deliberately trying to hurt each other... Hold it, did I conveniently leave myself out of that last statement? Yes, yes, I did! That must be because I have assauged my guilt with the knowledge that I was only repeating the facts.
But the truth hurts.
Ron, I am sorry if you were hurt by anything I said in these posts and I forgive the problems of the past. I hope you can do the same for me... and Dave...and John....and Brian...and...I hope you guys can forgive Ron as well.
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 10:35 PM
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Well well. Now two former critics have submitted perfectly acceptable peace offerings.
My compliments to lambone AND alpinestylist.
What do you say? Lets try for three.
Hey Flamer,
Does Jones' story add up?
Or do even you, who happened also to be the first to accuse me based on rumors about those rocks, think that I'm a skinflint or instead rather likely to be the first person to reach for the check?
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epic_ed
Feb 14, 2005, 10:45 PM
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First of all, I'm blown away by the direction this thread has developed. I can't express my gratitude enough for some of the stories and history you guys have been sharing about Zion. It's priceless.
Secondly, it's clear that you guys (Ron & Dave in particular) have a lot of unresolved animosity toward each other and I'm sure you both feel justified in maintaining your individual perspectives.
I've met Ron. He invited me up for a weekend last fall, and although the weather didn't cooperate to let us get any climbing in he was a gracious and generous host. Ron -- bro -- you can talk a blue streak about all matters climbing, political, and otherwise, but it doesn't make you a bad guy. I can see how your brand of interaction might not be for everyone, but you've proven to be far from a lecherous villian. I'm looking forward to hang out again some time.
But there are some questions that both of you guys seem to be dodging and I'd like to see some of them answered directly. Ron -- I'd like to know the story behind "crime against nature." Set the record straight. Youthful indiscretion? Drunken rage? Failed relationship? A statement you were trying to make? Or has the story just been exaggerated and there's much less to it than Dave is making?
Another legit question (and I've asked you this before privately) -- WHY drilled angels? Why, in your opinion are they/were they the best way to join blank features of routes?
And Dave, what's wrong with creating a route where you may have to grid bolt some blank sections in order to achive a completed route? I'm not trying to start the bolting debate all over, but if it weren't for this type of tactic, very few routes would have been completed. Hell, "the Nose" wouldn't even exist if not for the final bolt ladder. What's your beef with Ron for having a different vision of how some lines should go?
Dave, I very much like the stories. I know that finding a compatible wall partner is harder than finding a good marrige. Wall climbing brings out the best and absolute worst in people -- it's an intense emotional, mental, and physical experience. But if I were you, I'd be asking Ron for what specific questions doesn't he want you to answer in order to get that $10,000. What do you have to lose? Ron feels like you're defaming his reputation. You've indicated you're tired of Ron talking trash about you for the last two decades. As a reader, I have no idea what is fact, what is "prevarication", and what is outright slander. Why not take him up on his offer?
Could it be that you are just a couple of ol codgers (who could still kick my ass) who simply didn't get along? Maybe there's really no more to it than that.
Ed
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 11:03 PM
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Poorly timed.
I posted without seeing Mike's.
That's one acceptance out of four.
To the other three, step up to the plate. (and cover your friend while you're at it.)
Mike, read the motto again. BS is BS. Half truths are half truths. And not telling the whole truth is...etc.
Good try though. Better than the others.
To the rest of you.
Mike dropped the first rack over 100' and Pey, the Pete Schoening of rack catchers, hooked it with his arm.
Astounding! (and most likely quite painful.)
That year Mike made numerous trips and we put up
Babes in Thailand
Vernal Equinox
and Organasm
So much for the bonds of friendship forged in the fires of adversity.
You want to make kissy kissy Mike?
Jews don't turn the other cheek. Atonement is required. You made some astoundingly nasty lies and comments, not the least of which were the Hitler cracks.
This after how long? And now you say put it behind us?
I don't care what you smoke, I care what you DO when it affects ME.
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tenesmus
Feb 14, 2005, 11:14 PM
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In reply to: And what about "respectively", and Iron Messiah (so as not to split you of course). |
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lambone
Feb 14, 2005, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: Well well. Now two former critics have submitted perfectly acceptable peace offerings. My compliments to lambone AND alpinestylist.
I was never a real critic. I basicaly called you a loser after reading just one of your posts and not having any idea of who you were. That was my bad. Not a fair way to judge anyone...if anyone should be judged in the first place.
Wether you really are a looser or not is not really for me to say, but regardles I think it's cool that you have contributed to this forum.
cheers
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 11:37 PM
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Again cross posted!
Ed,
thank you kindly.
In addition to my version in this little Rashoman (and boy will THAT have the reader saying,"Ah sooo, now it fits.") I will discuss in full
Climb Against Nature
(Gee you don't suppose he got more than the name wrong also??)
But FIRST!
I think for the most part I tried to stay up on the filthy curb and out of the gutter. Yeah there was the shot about HIS lost partners but I could have named many more (oops). The timing of this concerted smear is what's most suspicious. Why now?
So many lies have been posted that it is easier to enumerate what truth is contained. If they refuse to stand behind their words (and they can't) it still does not cure the ill created.
For too long I laughed it off and didn't care about the BS rumors but the myth achieved critical mass and began working as a self fulfilling prophesy.
Enough.
Supposedly this dust up began by my calling into question an apparent claim in a history. I said it was false and despite pages of rants there has been no evidence submitted to support said claim.
I await acceptance of the remaing three or an acceptable apology from all four. Until then.... still running hot.
Doesn't anyone want to see me lose?
Its TEN GRAND to the Access Fund. Or whatever...
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jmlangford
Feb 14, 2005, 11:42 PM
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C'mon guys, step up to the plate...
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 11:57 PM
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Thank you kindly again Mr. Langford.
Tenesmus,
my apologies over the Tennis Mouse comment.
As a river runner I wonder if you knew my friend Joy Ungritch? The "Lynn Hill of river running" she was a pretty damn good climber too and made an attempt on Timbertop with me in '85.
I emailed Deuce some questions about his description of Iron Messiah and await his response on this thread.
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dmckj
Feb 15, 2005, 12:43 AM
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Wow! (again!)
Most excellent!
Question: Do the web site guys have to run coolant through certain threads, or do they just sieze up from time to time when they overheat?
BTW, correction to the statement I never did drugs. Between 15 and 18 I did enough of, literally, anything you could put in a pipe that I was cured forever of wanting more. Speaking of drugs, coffee, wine, beer are my favorites, and in that order.
Forgiveness....I am ALL for it. This web thread is my FIRST forum (as I said, go look up all of my supposed 'histories'.....good luck cause there ain't any) and I was only driven to enter the ring because of 15 years of a guy badmouthing me to anyone and everyone who would listen. Ironically, just today a friend of mine said 'you know, you used to point out Ron's good side to me'. Funny, huh? And even Devo does, but it only gets him attacked.
I even made the offer at the beginning of this thread to 'forgive' Dangle for nothing more than an apology and the court costs (just wait till you hear the rest of the story). Could have even been done off-web. Would have spared him the embarassment...but no.
How ironic that Dangle now argues for attonement from Devo. Over what? I thought he was dead-on, and more than fair, in his characterizations. Calling him a 'little Hitler' as Devo did has nothing to do with anti-semitism and everything to do with his attitude. I mean, my god, take a look at the R+I article and chose from the following...
Dangle is:
1) an oppressed man of jewish descent
2) a normal climber
3) a skin-head or survivalist
Seeing the pictures and knowing nothing else one would have to conclude #3. The guy who Dangle constantly lambasts for being anti-semitic told me his version of the story, and, no surprise, it doesn't jive with Dangle's.
And yet Dangle has convinced well-meaning thread readers to jump into his defense against this supposed anti-semite. The other side of the story is that this guys kids were mocking Dangle because HE LOOKED AND ACTED LIKE A SKINHEAD! (Again, could you look at the R+I photos and conclude otherwise?) The Nazi stuff reportedly went up because of that. The dad of these kids got so fed up with Dangle's subsequent virulent campaign against him that he told him off in public one day (sound familiar....just like my installments) and since then this guy has been subjected to smear and defamation and boycott campaigns by Dangle. Apparently, the reps for the companies whose gear this guy sells got strong-armed phone calls from Dangle THREATENING them with boycott and/or FBI intervention actions if they didn't stop selling to the guy. In short, Dangle was, and is, continuing to try and smear and ruin this guy. Just read this thread to see how he characterizes the man.
Well....surprise, surprise....the subject of Dangle's venom is a great guy.
Now, don't get me wrong on this. I am a fervent believer that ethnic or religious opression of any kind is odious. Heck, I lecture my wife and step-daugher about how important it is to watch and fully grasp movies like Schindler's List. But, if you re-read this thread, Dangle has tried to drag me into some sort of anti-semitic alliance. Talk about hyperbole!
Finally, the vast majority of folks reading this thinks that 'the truth' lies somewhere between Dangle and others who comment. Guess again...
'Crimes Against Nature' went up a stunningly beautiful blank wall with no climbable natural features. NONE. In the Temple of Sinawava for god's sake!! Go look at it yourselves. An atrocity that had NOTHING to do with 'youthful indiscretion'. Dangle said he'd be 'happy to comment about it'. Great....do so.
Dangle took me to court for a less $5 phone call which I didn't even owe him money for. He placed himself in front of a judge and said 'I thought it was a call from Warren Harding, a man I greatly admire'. Never mind we went skiing the day after the alleged crime I commited. He took me to court just to mess with me because I told him to f%&k off, something he more than richly deserved. But, as I pointed out much earlier in this thread, it goes much deeper than this.
There are no middle-of-the-road interpretations on these issues. If anything, folks are scared enough of Dangle (several guys who have posted have been very leery of speaking up) that they guard what they say.
Pretty silly.
So Dangle gets what he deserves...an airing of his past. He wants atonement? Consider my role as the Ghost of Christmas Past from Dicken's 'A Christmas Carol', reviewing transgressions from times passed and hoping he has a change of heart. Time for a little atonement yourself Dangle.
Or if he's not going to atone, at least shut up and keep to yourself.
Yeah, Joe Pesci is perfect for the roll.
.....The falling of light dust presaged the end of the finger-of-fate's fascination with its own nose, and the beginning of the end of our tale......
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 1:28 AM
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(lambone! Should be funnybone! "I'm not a critic I just thought you were a loser." nice to see SOMEONE coming around)
I can say with certainty that Dean Woods knew very well of my heritage BEFORE his kids put up the sign.
The reason is I CLEARLY TOLD HIM.
I don't know if the FBI has done any intervention but I do know that an agent has taken an interest in a pattern of hate crimes locally. There is also a $2000.00 reward offered by the insurance company.
He may not be a closet racist but Dean refused to apologize and said it was his "first constitutional right" (I assume he meant first ammendment right but those were his exact words. Besides the first ammendment doesn't give one the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.)
Let him say otherwise on the box!
C'mon guys step up to the plate.
If all three remaining accept (and accept to pick up Mike's slack) before midnight (MT) tomorrow I'll make it a twelve-thousand charity check.
If you are telling the truth what have you got to lose.
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 1:37 AM
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punctuation correction; above should have ended with ?
Hey! What happened to Danny DeVito? He was all excited! He started losing weight for the role. Said next time I stayed in Bel Aire I could touch his Oscar. Did DROP DEAD cut a side deal??
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deuce4
Feb 15, 2005, 1:38 AM
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Ron writes to me:
In reply to: The phrase might have read; in late '70s and early '80s respectively not to mention 4 words on Fischer; pushed standards of boldness Iron Messiah partner? origin of "bolt ladder" claim? While we're at it (not to offend but debate) Touchstone grade III and Prodigal IV+ ???
Still not sure what the first question is about--the history article? I'm sure it could use revisions, no qualms there, as stated before.
Iron Messiah: When I climbed the route with Darren Cope, who told me he had been on the first free ascent via the 5.10b variation (and called it "Aluminum Siding" a material he had been working with at the time), I did indeed see a bolt ladder that went up from a ledge and then pendulemmed back into the main corner crack system. It avoided the 5.10b pitch, which I remember was a little, not much, run out (crux with the pro a few feet beneath the feet). I seem to recall at least 10 bolts, maybe more, but we didn't go that way, so I never saw them up close. But I definitely saw a bolt ladder. Are the bolts no longer there?
I only did the Iron Messiah route once, spectacular! One of the best Zion free routes in my experience, nice view up there and a fun hike to the one of the highpoints of the Spearhead. Highly recommended. Make sure to scope out the line before attempting to wander up and just find the base--it is a bit hidden and tough to locate without larger scale reference points as you thrash around the approach.
Grades: well, I climbed Touchstone several times in less than a few hours, so called it a Grade III, whereas Prodigal took more time. The first time I did it, it took more, probably most of the day, but I remember doing it once in about 4 hours. OK, I am sure those grades were a bit of ego talking back then in my youth...
Cheers
JM
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 1:57 AM
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OK now the D man is pissed.
He's talking to the assistant producer. Thinks someone else is running with the story so we're going to fast track. I still get to do the stunt work for my character though. (Yeah. Like he's going to solo anything.)
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tenesmus
Feb 15, 2005, 2:12 AM
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Thanks deuce. Have you ever done anything down on the incisor by lee's ferry? I always scoped it out from the Marble Canyon Lodge after the rig, but never had the time to make it back... Is the rock as soft as I'd always imagined it?
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 2:26 AM
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Iron Messiah
There are TWO Cope Variants to the third pitch.
The original line is to the left of both and, with the ill advised left variant ens at a 15-20m 5.7A0 traverse PROTECTED by four perhaps five bolts.
The pendulum is properly done from a cam. Idiots however will see the slings the seconds leave on the last bolt and screw themselves.
When I did the FA I used a prototype soloist with the instructions written on the side in magic marker. After a few pitches the markings smudged with sweat. Now I believe that I ended up doing several pitches WITHOUT an actual belay but WITH rope drag!
Anyway when I returned the borrowed soloist I told its owner about the route and that I hadn't used any bolts for aid.
The strange thing is the owner was .....Deuce himself!
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 2:31 AM
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One other thing about Iron Messiah.
Before Darren cleaned out the free variant on rappel I had already done much of it but was disappointed to find wide cracks.
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 2:39 AM
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Oh yeah and the name;
Steve told me someone said it was me saying I was the Messiah.
Too much! Actually it DID have a double meaning. It was my first solo HAFWeN FA.
(You see the iron was nailed into place. OK I wasn't sensitized yet but I didn't put it outside a Christian's house.)
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flamer
Feb 15, 2005, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: Hey Flamer, Does Jones' story add up? Or do even you, who happened also to be the first to accuse me based on rumors about those rocks, think that I'm a skinflint or instead rather likely to be the first person to reach for the check?
Ron,
First of all Mr. Jone's story is just that-his, I know nothing more than what has been written here.....and that include's knowing Mr. Jones himself- I don't.
I've told you before I have tremendous respect for you, and in fact consider you a friend, not a "good" one as we have only met on 2 occasion's....but someone I'd happily drink a beer and share a conversation with(again).
And as I PMed you I'll be in the area this spring if you'd like to have dinner or a drink or a climb...I'll pay this time.
However. I'm also a strong willed person. I do not plan to kiss your ass, or agree with you on everything. I'm inclined to think that you would appreciate that if nothing else.
As for calling you out on drilling pockets....I've heard from more than one person(and a couple of them are VERY good friends and people I trust) about your manufactured routes....I'd LOVE to hear your side of the story should you care to share it....at which point I'll have heard several side's and can form an educated opinion.
So if you'd like to count this as an apology, great!!
At the very least I see it as an invitation to clear the " drilled pocket" air.
josh
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jgill
Feb 15, 2005, 4:06 AM
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Don't want to interrupt the flow you guys have got going, but just thought I'd mention that in May of 1962 I camped a few days down by the Virgin River, did some bouldering, and soloed a 50' crack somewhere above. But mostly I hiked and scrambled and stared in awe at the huge walls. 8^)
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 4:31 AM
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Josh not to cut you short but,
Mr. Gill I am most honored. Any observations from you regarding our little playground are always welcome from my corner.
I'm curious first off about a "local" issue. The rock is so soft that routes wear down. Any feelings on the subject?
Back to Josh, only asked if you figured I was miserly. Probably confused it by mentioning rocks. Sorry.
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jgill
Feb 15, 2005, 4:51 AM
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I think I might have been more aware of the soft rock issue, Ron, had there been any other climbers around. Actually, there were very few people around when I was there. I didn't see any evidence of previous bouldering, so didn't think about it. I suspect that you might contact some climbers who've had experience at Elbsandstein, near Dresden, for their opinions. Fehrmann, Perry-Smith and others were quite cognizant of just that problem around 1902 or thereabouts. Actually Perry-Smith wore nailed boots on his first visit there, but quickly changed to more appropriate footwear. 8^)
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