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towsonclimber
Feb 15, 2005, 6:17 AM
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so look altelis is right about alot but i am going to restate
1) do not put a biner into the tie in points for belay they are called TIE IN points and BELAY LOOP for a reason
2) you can cross load any biner with any device in any application they key is you have to watch it and be attentive. people who rig little devices to make life easier i would not climb with because they are being lazy i want my partner to be on the ball not thinking they can watch the butterflies
3) DON't USE A SCREW LINK they are not designed for use in a belay system
4) as for the mention about petzl telling you to toss your gear the spirit is designed as a QD biner and if you are taking a major and they are talking HUGE you can strain the biner for that matter the whole QD. as for dropping things yeah you better toss them metal is weak and you can easily cause micro fissures in the metal significantly reducing its strenght
so the best way to do this is to just be attentive when you are belaying and to use gear the way it was intended by the manufacturer
and yes you should be skeptical about taking advice from some stranger online to give me a tad of crediblity i am not only a climber (well duh) but i am also a physicsit who works in metals, and i have hurt myself climbing useing gear in a way it was not ment to be used
go to your local gym and talk to one of the instructors there job is teaching climbing and climbing safty
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sandstone
Feb 15, 2005, 5:54 PM
Post #27 of 41
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In reply to: ... you can cross load any biner with any device in any application they key is you have to watch it and be attentive...
Good advice, but it's not as simple as that for soloing, either on lead or top-rope.
In short, soloing is a situation where cross loading is very likely to occur, and very likely to occur without your knowledge.
In reply to: people who rig little devices to make life easier i would not climb with because they are being lazy i want my partner to be on the ball not thinking they can watch the butterflies
You're right, nothing can fully replace a good belayer/partner. That said, roped solo climbing is an integral part of climbing history, and it's alive and well today. This thread was started by a question regarding cross loading in solo applications, right?
You seem to be Gri-Gri bashing(?). In some instances the Gri-Gri is the best device to use. There's a reason big wall climbers use them for belaying pitches that take hours to lead. Rig several different belay systems for solo top roping using the various devices available, and you'll see that there are some good reasons to use a GriGri. For one, the GriGri was designed to catch high load falls, and in that regard it is more appropriate than any ascender based solution. Another advantage is that with the GriGri you are (by default) pre-rigged for rappelling down the top rope after a fall. If you're using an ascender based system you have to escape it and transfer to a rappel device to get down, incurring additional risks in the transfer process.
For more info on solo top rope belaying read this article by Howard Peel.
In reply to: 3) DON't USE A SCREW LINK they are not designed for use in a belay system
This is where I apply my own judgement and common sense. Rather than rely on a biner in a critical situation where crossloading is very possible, I rely on something else. For soloing I use a steel screw link to attach my belay device to my harness, and will continue to do so until I see some compelling reason to do otherwise.
I contend that a steel screw link is less likely to fail if it is cross loaded, when compared to a biner. Is that a personal opinion based on experience and common sense? You bet, that's all it is. Dang, I knew I should've asked Santa for a pull testing machine!
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wa_hoo
Feb 15, 2005, 8:40 PM
Post #28 of 41
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In reply to: 2) you should not be belaying off the tie-in points on the harness-they manufacture harnesses with BELAY loops for a reason, namely to belay off of. there are two problems with belaying off the tie in points. the first, and potentially most harmful, is that you then TRI-LOAD your biner. slight as it may be in an ideal situation you are still tri-loading it, and in non ideal situations, like with biners with a narrow end, you can tri-load it to a dangerous degree, especially if you are catching a big whipper. secondly, the belay loop was designed specifically after tube style devices came out, because you can feed/catch tube devices better when they are aligned vertically (off the belay loop) instead of horizontally (off the tie in loop). feeding is smoother and so is lowering and you don't kink the rope. use the belay loop and just watch for cross-loading
Thanks for the clear and thoughtful response!
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sandstone
Feb 16, 2005, 8:31 PM
Post #29 of 41
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If you do use a screw link to attach your belay device to your harness for roped soloing (to avoid the problem of cross loading a biner gate), use a good one. You won't find it at a hardware store. I use either an oval or delta shaped model, made of 10mm diameter steel, from a reliable source (scroll down to near the bottom of the linked page). The oval's breaking strength is listed as 11,020lbs, the recommended working load is 1/5 of that (2204lbs).
Some have mentioned that screw links should not be used for attaching the belay device to the harness. Here's some other references, so there's more to go on than just a few opinions.
RockNRescue sells all manner of rigging gear, here's what they have to say about screw links: "Three styles: an oval which is used in the same manner as a locking carabiner, a triangular and a semi-circular model. The last two are excellent where three-way loading will occur, such as in a harness. Many hardware stores sell screw links which are intended for repairing chains. These are not good choices in a critical situation. "
From the REI web site, regarding the delta shaped screw link: "A compact lightweight alternative to carabiners for semi-permanent attachments. Stands up to force in any direction--including three-way loading when screwed closed. Constructed of galvanized steel for a breaking strength of 9,900 pounds. Triangular shape creates the room needed for cavers' seat harness and all the gear which needs to be clipped into a central point. Links are marked with a Normal Working Load, (NWL), which is about 1/5 of their strength. "
Aspiring Enterprises sells industrial fall protection equipment (some of which is basically the same type rig used by climbers for solo top roping). Here's what they have to say about harness attachment: "Snap-hooks are widely used to connect the lanyard to both the anchors and the harness. However there have been cases of disconnection in a fall, almost inevitably with serious consequences. We prefer to completely avoid the possibility of disconnection between the harness and lanyard by supplying our lanyards fitted with steel screw-links (also called "Maillons Rapides", "quick-links", or "tube-nut connectors" at the harness end. These cannot be disconnected inadvertently from the harness, provided they are screwed up tightly. "
If you haven't already seen it, check out Howard Peel's page on solo top roping, it's the most comprehensive soure of info on the subject I've found. Regarding harness attachment, he says: "Using a mallion rapide [screw] is probably the best bet. [..] A carabiner is larger than a mallion and less able to hold your fall device in its correct orientation so may end up being cross loaded."
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brianinslc
Feb 16, 2005, 9:03 PM
Post #30 of 41
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In reply to: Some have mentioned that screw links should not be used for attaching the belay device to the harness. Here's some other references, so there's more to go on than just a few opinions.
Hmmm....moonunit should weigh in on this. Oh, Merry Hankster...
I think using a screw link is fine for attaching especially a gri gri (etc) to the belay loop. Much stronger, especially if you get a 10mm one, than a carabiner in any orientation, methinks. They're just a pain, especially if they get overtorqued. And, extra gear to haul a wrench that fits them along.
Anyhoo...FWIW...
-Brian in SLC
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okieterry
Feb 16, 2005, 9:34 PM
Post #31 of 41
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Sandstone - thanks a lot for the info and the link to Peel's page!
I modified my grigri about four years ago on my own. It made sense to me. It was cool to see the "death modification" shown on Peel's page looks just like mine! It has worked very well.
I think the screw link idea is good....just as long as it is a quality link. It may not be stronger than a carabiner but its size and shape should prevent it from crossloading. I also liked the additional sling that he used to keep the link closer to the harness and oriented.
I've also used a piece of half inch webbing to back up the biner by slipping it through the grigri tie-in holes and my harness and then tied as a backup.
Thanks again
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moondog
Feb 16, 2005, 9:46 PM
Post #32 of 41
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In reply to: Hmmm....moonunit should weigh in on this. Oh, Merry Hankster...
Nothing wrong with using an appropriate* maillon to attach a Grigri - they're way more tolerant of odd loading than carabiners. Fun tip: gate opening of a 7 mm oval long maillon can be used as a wrench on the nut of any 10 mm maillon (only Maillon Rapide brand made by Peguet).
*Others have recommended a 10 mm steel delta (Maillon Rapide brand). Sounds good to me.
Note that Petzl does not recommend the Grigri for soloing!
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sandstone
Feb 16, 2005, 11:40 PM
Post #33 of 41
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In reply to: ...screw link..... They're just a pain, especially if they get overtorqued. And, extra gear to haul a wrench that fits them along...
Yup, I only use them for soloing, either top rope or solo aid (lead). For climbing with a partner I use my trusty old DMM belay biners.
The first couple of times I soloed I noticed that my biner would get knocked into a position where it could get cross loaded in a fall. I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, but it doesn't take much common sense to figure out that a fat screw link is a much better way to go. The little bit of additional weight and hassle associated with a screw link is worth it to me for the extra piece of mind when soloing.
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alpnclmbr1
Feb 18, 2005, 6:38 AM
Post #34 of 41
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alpnclmbr1 moved this thread from Beginners to Gear Heads.
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clmbr121
Feb 18, 2005, 7:13 PM
Post #35 of 41
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Some people get the steel biners because they have a workable load much higher than aluminum (most aluminum are in the neighborhood of ~20 kN, whereas steel are around 65kN). However, I think this is also a mind game that people play with themselves.
A locking aluminium biner will do just fine. Its lighter and won't rust the same way steel will. Steel biners are usually used by S&R.
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greenketch
Feb 24, 2005, 6:16 PM
Post #36 of 41
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Sandstone, You've brought up some valid points about a gri-gri. I don't freguent this forum and so missed the entire thing. Two comments that need to be made. One a gri-gri is not the best item for the climbing that you are doing (basically roped solo). This is partially do to the cross load issue that you are concerned about. The other reason is that in a fall some relationships of rope/gri-gri/body will cause the device not to activate. This could be bad joo joo. To remedy these issues it would be better to look into a soloist or solo aider or something similar.
All of that said, I have roped solo climbed for several years using a gri-gri and like it. The method that I use is by wearing a chest harness. The gri-gri is tied in using a standard method and the the top of the device is attached to the chest. This maintains the rope/device/body relationship so that everything functions when you really need it. Here is the biggest challenge. The easiest way to do this is via a modifacation that while somewhat widspread is not approved by Petzl. I won't advocate it on this forum. Other tie in fashions work I just don't like the cluster potential of them. If you are intersted let me know and I can describe the rope path that your looking for.
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sandstone
Feb 24, 2005, 10:06 PM
Post #37 of 41
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In reply to: Sandstone...a gri-gri is not the best item for the climbing that you are doing (basically roped solo)....it would be better to look into a soloist..... I have roped solo climbed for several years using a gri-gri...
You don't recommend the GriGri, yet that's what you use. You do recommend the Soloist (which apparently you don't use?), which can't hold an inverted fall. I'm confused. (not that hard to accomplish, btw)
In reply to: This is partially do to the cross load issue that you are concerned about.
My initial input to this thread was that people should consider using a beefy screwlink instead of a biner in applications where crossloading is likely (i.e. harness to belay device attachment when soloing). I'm much less concerned about crossloading there since I started (~10 years ago) using a screwlink.
In reply to: The other reason is that in a fall some relationships of rope/gri-gri/body will cause the device not to activate. This could be bad joo joo.
You also have to be careful about the size of the rope, and the effect of the weight of the rope hanging below (and know how to deal with that).
In reply to: To remedy these issues it would be better to look into a soloist or solo aider or something similar.
I looked at the Soloist pretty seriously when it came out, but I didn't like its limitations. I wouldn't recommend it -- but that's just my opinion. I haven't tried the SoloAid, my current systems are working well for me.
In reply to: ... I have roped solo climbed for several years...and like it.
You are one sick puppy! :-)
In reply to: The method that I use is by wearing a chest harness. The gri-gri is tied in using a standard method and the the top of the device is attached to the chest. This maintains the rope/device/body relationship so that everything functions when you really need it. Here is the biggest challenge. The easiest way to do this is via a modifacation that while somewhat widspread is not approved by Petzl. I won't advocate it on this forum. Other tie in fashions work I just don't like the cluster potential of them. If you are intersted let me know and I can describe the rope path that your looking for.
I'm always open to new ideas. Can you post a photo of what you're describing?
I've used several different solo rigs over the years, starting with sliding knot based systems way back in the early 70's (yikes!). Some have involved chest harnesses, others not. Regardless of what system I use I always back up the belay -- that helps even out the shortcomings of any system.
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greenketch
Feb 25, 2005, 5:30 PM
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YOur replies are great. It seems that it will take me a bit to really put it together. I am working on getting a picture together for you and will be back then :)
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greenketch
Feb 25, 2005, 8:40 PM
Post #39 of 41
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In reply to: You don't recommend the GriGri, yet that's what you use. You do recommend the Soloist (which apparently you don't use?), which can't hold an inverted fall. I'm confused. (not that hard to accomplish, btw)
This is one of "those" issues. The gri is not a uiaa approved device for this use. I would be remiss in saying this is how you should do it. I can say that the soloist or the soloaid is for this use. I have tried them and do not like them as much as the old way I did same thing.
In reply to: My initial input to this thread was that people should consider using a beefy screwlink instead of a biner in applications where crossloading is likely (i.e. harness to belay device attachment when soloing). I'm much less concerned about crossloading there since I started (~10 years ago) using a screwlink.
This is not a bad idea. My thoughts are that this happens. Even the standard fig 8 device is known for busting carabiners. If there is a temporary bit of slack the device can get out of place and when reloaded can cross load the biner. This can happen with a gri as well. Again I think that if it is only used as recommended by the manufacture this challenge is minimal. We are in this discussion moving into something that is not quite according to the book. If a screwlink was used they are very resistant to crossloading even in those cases where it occurs.
In reply to: You also have to be careful about the size of the rope, and the effect of the weight of the rope hanging below (and know how to deal with that).
This is also true. These factors can affect the way a gri locks. They only work in a narrow band of rope sizes. the rope weight affects the lock off rate. That rate is in my experience a bigger challenge when climbing solo and you must feed your own rope in the early part of the pitch
In reply to: ... but I didn't like its limitations. I wouldn't recommend it -- but that's just my opinion. I haven't tried the SoloAid, my current systems are working well for me.
me either. The soloaid is nice I mostly don't like the way it feeds but it will catch you in any position.
In reply to: You are one sick puppy! :-)
I know :roll: but I seem to find myself in a position where a partner is difficult to come by sometimes. I work weird hours and live in an area with a very small pool of canidates. I just find that any climbing is better than none :D
In reply to: I'm always open to new ideas. Can you post a photo of what you're describing?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=49124
This is what I use. The swaged ring is not load bearing in this use. It serves to orient the gri against your abs and maintains the rope orientation. The rope is reaved inthe normal fashion.
My usual process is to establish a bomber anchor at the ground one end of the rope is tied in here. The other end is tied into my harness. Starting from the anchor the rope is routed through the gri (as the load bearing side) then I start at the harness end and pull up loops of rope and tie an eight on a bight and attach to a locker on my harness. each coil is slightly smaller and I stop when I am fairly close to the gri from the other end. It is important to remeber that these knots are your backup if there is a challenge with the gri. Then it's climb on. climb as normal setting pro as you go just like you had a belayer. Keep the slack between you and the anchor to a minimum with the gri and drop loops removing their knots as required. When you have made it to the end or the first "belay" build and anchor, tie off the rope, lower yourself with the gri, remove the lower anchor than either jug or reclimb to your station. Repeat as needed.
I hope this gives you some ideas. I agree with you on the cross loading solution. My personal desire is to do something (such as the harness mod or technique refine) to not cross load in the first place. It is good also to use something resistant to a known prob.
Climb safe and HAVE FUN
PS I could not get the link to the photo to work. I am much more of a computer gumby. Put copy and paste works :wink:
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johnhenry
Feb 27, 2005, 3:01 AM
Post #40 of 41
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There is some good discussion here. THanks for keeping things civil and informative. The internet is filled with discussions of soloing with the Grigri because:
1.) It is so readily available
2.) Many people have heard stories of it not working
and thus,
3.) Many are wisely supicious of it.
There have been a number of people who still advocate it religiously, such as PTPP, despite having several first hand conversations with people for whom it failed them.
There are three ways a Grigri could potential kill you in a roped solo situation:
1.)It can break the spin of a beaner. As pointed out above, this can be mitigated somewhat by using a mallion rapid or steel locker. This is what happened in the amazing article refereced by imnotcleaver above.
2.) As shown in the TR solo article above, the rope can get caught under the lowering handle, theatening to sever it in sever fall. That picture says a thousand words.
3.) Sometimes it just lets people slip and does not lock off. This is probably a fuction of rope diameter, but who knows. A number of people have spoken about this. Even PTPP admits he ties his back up knots more frequently after hearing about numerous misadventures. Ammon, who has logged probably more grigri sololing vertical than anyone, has had his unit slip him to his back up knot several times.
Solo is a victimless crime, so do it whateverway you feel comfortable. But the above question marks motivated me to buy a Silent Partner and I have never looked back. For me, piece of mind is what really matters when I am pushing it (not to mention the darn thing just works a hell of lot better).
Whatever you do, play it safe. Thanks for the good discussion on topics that reoccur for good reason.
Cheers,
john
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sandstone
Feb 28, 2005, 1:04 AM
Post #41 of 41
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Greenketch, thanks for posting the photo. All is clear now.
You're right about this being one of "those" issues, i.e. using things in a mode that is outside the manufacturers published recommendations. It's a personal call, and requires good doses of common sense and experience.
Some people are going to poo poo anything that isn't by the book, and I guess that is a reasonable stance on public forum, except that it's not based in reality. It's a fact that climbers have been experimenting, tinkering, and innovating for a very long time. Our tinkerers have given us hard steel pitons, cams, chocks, ice tools that really work, and lots of other goodies. I say tinker away.
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