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tradklime
Mar 30, 2005, 11:26 PM
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In reply to: This is the first time I have ever heard of an experienced climber being confused about what a .4 friend is.
Are you f'ing kidding me? You're joking right?
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atg200
Mar 30, 2005, 11:40 PM
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you would be a grumpy asshole too if you didn't have any vowels in your name.
i've never seen a good cam chart.
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 30, 2005, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This is the first time I have ever heard of an experienced climber being confused about what a .4 friend is. Are you f'ing kidding me? You're joking right?
Not at all.
.4 friend size as a descriptive term, is at least ten years old. Another commonly used term was a "tips crack."
And for the last time since many of you seem stuck on this problem. The .5 in .5 friend has nothing to do with inches. You would think that people would have figured that out when they came out with a zero.
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elvislegs
Mar 30, 2005, 11:56 PM
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only one way to resolve this now.
pistols.
at dawn.
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tradklime
Mar 31, 2005, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: This is the first time I have ever heard of an experienced climber being confused about what a .4 friend is. Are you f'ing kidding me? You're joking right? Not at all. .4 friend size as a descriptive term, is at least ten years old. Another commonly used term was a "tips crack." And for the last time since many of you seem stuck on this problem. The .5 in .5 friend has nothing to do with inches. You would think that people would have figured that out when they came out with a zero.
Ok, since you seem to be so in the know, where does a .75 friend fit into it all, say relative to a .5 and a 1 friend?
And is that "0.4 friend" a descriptive term for a 0 friend?
Please enlighten me.
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sspssp
Mar 31, 2005, 12:10 AM
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In reply to: i've never seen a good cam chart.
Sad, but very true.
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sspssp
Mar 31, 2005, 12:12 AM
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In reply to: Ok, since you seem to be so in the know, where does a .75 friend fit into it all, say relative to a .5 and a 1 friend? And is that "0.4 friend" a descriptive term for a 0 friend? Please enlighten me.
To wade into the fray, as the new Indian Creek guidebook says in the introduction, one of the reasons he went with Friends is that the size of a Friend is approximately the size of a crack in inches. So a #2 friend is about right for a 2" crack.
I would suppose a .75 friend to be about halfway between a .5 and a 1. Just a guess, mind you.
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 31, 2005, 12:48 AM
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In reply to: Ok, since you seem to be so in the know, where does a .75 friend fit into it all, say relative to a .5 and a 1 friend?
I do not own an equivalent to a .75 friend size cam.
If I was interested in getting one I would buy a grey alien as that was what it was made for.
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bhilden
Mar 31, 2005, 1:16 AM
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This discussion demonstrates why I find many guidebook lacking. Some people on this thread have decided that there is some implied standard that everyone (well, any climber worth his/her salt) knows about. Well, the fact is, there isn't such a standard. The guidebook may ultimately be used by climbers from all over the world. So why use a standard that has been adopted by the locals (who probably have al the climbs wired anyways)?
I think it would have been much more useful to use size (inches or centimeters) rather
than refer to one specific manufacturer's camming units. It would have been so easy
just to convert numbers to measurements. I think this was a bad choice by the author.
Most guidebooks I have use measurements (inches). That translates well to any type of
camming unit.
On second thought, just solo everything at Indian Creek. End of discussion.
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maculated
Mar 31, 2005, 1:17 AM
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Gold trophy to Triassic for answering succinctly and resolutely.
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 31, 2005, 1:45 AM
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In reply to: I think it would have been much more useful to use size (inches or centimeters) rather than refer to one specific manufacturer's camming units.
Do you have the measurements(open, closed, and usable open and closed) of all your cams memorized?
So you want the guidebook to provide cam placements in inches. Then you are going to use a chart to figure out which cams to bring.
What do you do with a #2 friend sized crack and a rack of camalots. Would that be a gold or a red, either could work by the numbers. As a matter of fact most likely it wouldn't be either at a place like the creek.
Like I said before. You have to understand your tools in order to use them properly. Most places you can get away with being sloppy. IC is not most places.
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golsen
Mar 31, 2005, 2:02 AM
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There are a lot of these comments where I feel like my kids are fighting again...
Children....there are a lot of cams now where there used to be one type and that is the Friend. When they first came out they didnt have a 0.5 but that was the next size they made. Then there were TCU's and climbers were so happy because then they didnt get the shit scared out of them and have to try and stick a stopper in the crack. And the climbers stopped crying. So you can stop crying. It's OK children, the cracks are there and you can try to put whatever size and whatever type of CAM into the crack that you want to. You can carry up whatever little mechanical toy you have on the rack. Its all your choice. Nobody is going to stop you but the crack itself. And kids, if you rely on a guidebook or a parent to tell you, well....I hate to brake the news, but you might be very very disapointed and cry because they were wrong. So like many other things associated with growing up, it is about responsibility. You have to be responsible and tell me when you need to go potty so I can stop the car and you have to be responsible for picking the right cam because the grownups might be wrong....in fact, many other grownups have been wrong because they are learning too...So sorry.... :cry:
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atg200
Mar 31, 2005, 2:12 AM
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In reply to: Then there were TCU's and climbers were so happy because then they didnt get the shit scared out of them and have to try and stick a stopper in the crack.
beer all over the keyboard. goddamn that was funny.
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maculated
Mar 31, 2005, 2:17 AM
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In reply to: You have to be responsible and tell me when you need to go potty so I can stop the car and you have to be responsible for picking the right cam because the grownups might be wrong....in fact, many other grownups have been wrong because they are learning too...So sorry.... :cry:
And Golsen shoots from the corner - NOTHING BUT NET!
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jaybro
Mar 31, 2005, 4:53 AM
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Bachelor Party at the Cat wall is a .3-.4" crack (at the crux) I used borrowed aliens.
If the guide said .4 I'd try a purple metolious and go from there.
go climbing
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 31, 2005, 5:34 AM
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In reply to: Bachelor Party at the Cat wall is a .3-.4" crack (at the crux) I used borrowed aliens. If the guide said .4 I'd try a purple metolious and go from there. go climbing
Another crack climbing expert that doesn't own aliens...
The crux of bachelor party is solid fingers. The only part that takes small gear is the boulder problem start.
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bhilden
Mar 31, 2005, 7:27 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think it would have been much more useful to use size (inches or centimeters) rather than refer to one specific manufacturer's camming units. Do you have the measurements(open, closed, and usable open and closed) of all your cams memorized? So you want the guidebook to provide cam placements in inches. Then you are going to use a chart to figure out which cams to bring. What do you do with a #2 friend sized crack and a rack of camalots. Would that be a gold or a red, either could work by the numbers. As a matter of fact most likely it wouldn't be either at a place like the creek. Like I said before. You have to understand your tools in order to use them properly. Most places you can get away with being sloppy. IC is not most places.
You are still missing the major point of the whole thread! One of the major reasons you use a guidebook is so that you don't have to drag all the gear you own up every climb. On most climbs you can't see everywhere you will have to place pro. So, a guidebook can be helpful in determining what gear you need to take.
It is not a question of "knowing your rack". It is a question of knowing what items on your rack to take. And, the easiest way to understand what to take is to use "inches" for identifying which cams to take. 99% of the guidebooks I own use "inches" for stating pro size.
Bruce
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jaybro
Mar 31, 2005, 2:48 PM
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"The crux of bachelor party is solid fingers. The only part that takes small gear is the boulder problem start. "
A truly confusing statement. How could the "solid fingers" part be the crux? .. dope slap.. It' SOLID FINGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YMMV, I kinda t hought, as in most cases, that the not solid, in this case thinner, section seemed the hardest ( on levels of difficulty, technique, and as is pertinent to this thread, -pro placement) part, as it required more expertise than the straight forward Solid Fingers. Could be exceptions but, on what climbs is the easy to jam and protect part, the crux? -this is Not an enduro climb.
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crackmd
Mar 31, 2005, 3:02 PM
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I don't understand why this topic is inspiring so much passion in people. I'm amazed at how many strong climbers have been accused of being "noobs" and "gumbies" in this thread.
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 31, 2005, 3:28 PM
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In reply to: That's why I think the whole enterprise of giving exact gear beta is hopeless. Just go climb the thing and figure it out for yourself, why submit yourself to teh possibility of an error?
In reply to: If the guidebook says "bring x number of 0.4"...what the hell does that mean? To my knowledge, there is not 0.4 Friend.
In reply to: For example, when it tells me to bring 4 #0.4's on "Death of a Cowboy", I don't really know what means.
In reply to: Maybe the only reason I have this problem is because I'm the only person to be climbing the 0.4 Friend sized cracks? Who knows?
In reply to: I have my book with me today, so I can be more specific, here's the gear list for "Death of a Cowboy": (1)0.4 (4)0.5 (1)0.75 (1)1.0 (1)2.0 (2)2.5 (2)2.5 (4)3.0 (3)3.5 |
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tradklime
Mar 31, 2005, 3:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Ok, since you seem to be so in the know, where does a .75 friend fit into it all, say relative to a .5 and a 1 friend? I do not own an equivalent to a .75 friend size cam. If I was interested in getting one I would buy a grey alien as that was what it was made for.
Interesting... lets see, the published range for a .5 friend is .67-.94 and the published range for a 1 friend is .75-1.14. Sounds good, nice overlap, no need for another piece in there.
But wait, as you suggest, I could slip in a grey alien, which has a range of... drum roll please... .78-1.12.
Idiot! God! (ala Napolian Dynamite)
Sorry to say but you illustrate the point perfectly. The sizing provided in the guide book for below a 1 friend, if viewed in the context of friend sizing, is inaccurate. Period, end of story.
Now does that mean the book is terrible, the author is a jerk, or anything like that. Oh course not. But it is a flaw of the book. Period, end of story.
Nothing more nothing less.
The reason people appear so impassioned in this thread is because, like so many other threads, this has become a pissing contest. And I'm just as guilty as anyone.
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golsen
Mar 31, 2005, 3:47 PM
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If you expect the guidebooks gear selection to be correct on every climb then I think your expectations are a bit high. In about 1988 my partner and I did a new route far down the Potash Rd. I am pretty certain all we placed were 11 #2 friends. Bjornstad lists 10 #2's plus 6 other cams from a .75 to a #4. I dont think we gave him that list. I can't remember every thinking we wished we had that gear. I dont know where the info came from and when I saw it in print the first time I thought they must have scoped the route with binocs, used our info and ad libbed II dont know if this is true).
You go along everycliff and everyclimb and I would be shocked if everyone came up with the same list of gear. I agree that the guide should be roughly correct on the rack if they are going to list such things. But if you blindly take whatever they list then you have taken that responsibility away from yourself. You have let the guide make that decision but you will still have to deal with it on the climb, for better or worse...
Now for the thread to really get going, throw the term "solid fingers" into the fray. Anyone here know a fella whose knickname was jimmy dean? We called him that because he had the fattest fingers we ever saw. And damn if that boy couldnt tame certain size cracks.
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 31, 2005, 4:33 PM
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In reply to: Interesting... lets see, the published range for a .5 friend is .67-.94 and the published range for a 1 friend is .75-1.14. Sounds good, nice overlap, no need for another piece in there. But wait, as you suggest, I could slip in a grey alien, which has a range of... drum roll please... .78-1.12. Idiot! God! (ala Napolian Dynamite) Sorry to say but you illustrate the point perfectly. The sizing provided in the guide book for below a 1 friend, if viewed in the context of friend sizing, is inaccurate. Period, end of story.
On my rack:
A yellow alien is oftentimes interchangeble with a .5 friend.
A red alien is pretty much the same as a #1 friend
Now according to your apples and oranges numbers; A grey alien, red alien and a number 1 friend are all the same size. Sure thing.
It is amazing how much trouble people are having with a simple problem of which cams are larger then which.
I guess the bottom line is that the descriptive term .4 friend size is beyond your intelectual capibilities. I wish i could say that I am surprised. Nothing surprises me on rc.com anymore. Nothing related to stupidity, anyway.
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rockprodigy
Mar 31, 2005, 4:58 PM
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For the record, (check my posts if you wish) I have never once stated that the gear beta was inaccurate. I said it was confusing.
Now after five pages, nobody has been able to tell me, based on the chart, what sizes in Camalots I should bring for that given gear beta. Now if somebody could make that conversion, then I could tell you how it is inaccurate, but I don't care about that...of course the gear beta is inaccurate, there must be over 1000 routes in that book, there is no way they are going to get every one right! That was not, and is not the point of my question.
I simply want some help interpreting the chart!
Furthermore, if you're going to use a theoretical 0.4 and 0.75 Friend, they should be in the chart as well so that I know what this theoretical piece of gear is equivalent to in my beloved Camalots!
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tradklime
Mar 31, 2005, 5:15 PM
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alpnclmbr1, you sir are a b!tch. It's amazing that you have the audacity to lurk around this site and call everyone who doesn't agree with you stupid.
In reply to: Now according to your apples and oranges numbers; A grey alien, red alien and a number 1 friend are all the same size. Sure thing.
In reply to: It is amazing how much trouble people are having with a simple problem of which cams are larger then which.
In reply to: I guess the bottom line is that the descriptive term .4 friend size is beyond your intelectual capibilities.
To you, it means a green alien. And in the context of this guidebook, you are wrong.
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