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maculated
May 18, 2005, 4:54 AM
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Nebo,
This has been nagging me a bit, and this is the one and only time that I ever take post count into consideration . . . I am not making a judgment here, but I have to ask - what made you decide to create a username and go to rockclimbing.com with this? It's my experience that people either lurk on this site and never post, or they create user names at some point because they want to comment on something. It's a little odd that you come to this site and your first post is this one.
I just would like to ask your credibility on this point. Like I've posted, I definitely see both sides to this thread, and I know that you feel as justified as Storm does - but why would you choose RC.com to "mobilize" as you phrase it? Your profile doesn't give your name or background so it's hard to judge credibility of your side - while Storm at least has a bio on his page.
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 5:03 AM
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yes foster care is traumatic, but falling to your death is much, much worse. For parents to encourage ree-soloing at that age can not be justified, I don't care how you try. These parents are knowingly and willfully risking the lives of their children. that is reckless endangerment, and needs to be stopped ASAP. I will not relent my point. I don't care enough to make this my mission in life, but I do care enough to refer these people to the proper channels. If nothing truly reckless is occuring, then these folks have nothing to fear.
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crshbrn84
May 18, 2005, 5:52 AM
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i just read all nine pages of this drivle, this is just sad all around. Would one of the moderators please lock this thread. This has already gotten way too far out of hand.
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 5:53 AM
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In reply to: Nebo, I just would like to ask your credibility on this point. Like I've posted, I definitely see both sides to this thread, and I know that you feel as justified as Storm does - but why would you choose RC.com to "mobilize" as you phrase it? Your profile doesn't give your name or background so it's hard to judge credibility of your side - while Storm at least has a bio on his page.
Thanks for asking. I have covered some of my background in previous posts in this thread, but it would certainly be more convenient for others if I completed my profile. I just tried to do so but the system was cranky--so perhaps later. Here's a synopsis.
I started climbing in 1971, mostly in the area of my hometown Santa Barbara. In the summers I worked in the Sierra teaching rockclimbing to youth at risk and guiding backcountry wilderness trips of 21 day duration, all with at-risk youth, mostly referred by probation. In 1977 I moved to Visalia and became more active in the south sierra, climbing along the General's highway and contributing a number of first ascents in that area (Chimney Rock, moro rock, tokopah). Please see the guidebooks for the Southern Sierra for more info. I spent one summer in Yosemite and made many visits there over the years. I enjoy short climbs and have never thrived on big walls, although I did climb Middle Cathedral North Buttress in about 1980 or so. I continued until about 1993 or 94 to lead backcountry trips for youth at risk, mostly in North Yosemite and the Hoover Wilderness. I researched and wrote the first climbers guide for the General's Highway of Sequoia/Kings Canyon, which appeared in Rock and Ice (I believe it was issue 21). My maximum leading ability was about 5.11b/c. I climbed many hundreds of shorter routes.
Meanwhile, I started and developed a youth services program in Tulare County (Turning Point Youth Services) which I directed for 15 years while earning my masters in marriage and family counseling. I then spent 10 years as an organizational development consultant helping a variety of human services program develop funding and evaluation strategies. My present business focuses on providing software that I hope empowers these types of programs to better track and manage services--my theory being that when I cast my particular pebble into the pond, this is how I make the widest ripples.
Now, why did I choose this as a method of approaching this issue? Again, I have written about this in previous posts. But I've had some opportunity to reflect more on this question, so to add: I imagined that individuals who have climbing experience, looking at those pictures, would be concerned enough to give Storm a scolding that might benefit Raven and Jinjee.
You ask why is this my first post on this forum? Well, actually, long ago I used to sometimes participate in forums of this type; back then flame wars mostly happened through letters to the editors of the various magazines. And in the earlier days of the internet there were a few bulletin boards. Honestly, I had forgotten how quickly these things degenerate into flaming, and how the focus tends to shift from the issue at hand to the personal characteristics, real, imagined, and projected, of the participants.
I have been reminded.
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maculated
May 18, 2005, 6:06 AM
Post #130 of 315
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In reply to: Honestly, I had forgotten how quickly these things degenerate into flaming, and how the focus tends to shift from the issue at hand to the personal characteristics, real, imagined, and projected, of the participants. I have been reminded.
True, that. No matter the venue, the Internet is rife with pissing matches: some deserved, some not.
Thank you for your answer.
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grover
May 18, 2005, 6:19 AM
Post #131 of 315
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nebo,
Is it common practice of a marriage and family counselor to post photo's on a forum to total strangers to "scold" parents?
Is that the protocol, or did you try other ways first and use this as a last resort, which it has sadly turned into.
Turning it loose amongst DOGS!!!
This is not a court.
I presume that with your experience in counseling you've made some proper judgements in this field, but do you think this is one of them?
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 7:21 AM
Post #132 of 315
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In reply to: I don't need to go down to CA to tell that what's going on is wrong. The pics and the text speak for themselves. Those children are in imminent danger. I can tell that from here. Child services can do the rest. If there's no smoke, there's no fire. Given your PM, I highly doubt you are the humaitarian you claim. Chill.
OK, i should chill...while you fuck with the lives of people you've never met. Uh, yeah.
"Don't need to see what's going on firsthand"...yeah...if you saw it on the internet it must be true...wanna buy a bridge, micah?
"Those children are in imminent danger..." pffffft. says you. guess my two kids have been in "imminent danger" all their lives.
My pm basically says you are an idiot. Sinnce the last resort of a dickhead loser with no point to make is always to refer to PM's, i'll post mine here for all to see:
"you're either a troll or a f---.
either way, go die, you f---ing punk."
i stand by what i PM'd you. you ARE either a troll, or a punk.
or worse.
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pheenixx
May 18, 2005, 8:03 AM
Post #133 of 315
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In reply to: ...long ago I used to sometimes participate in forums of this type; back then flame wars mostly happened through letters to the editors of the various magazines. And in the earlier days of the internet there were a few bulletin boards. Honestly, I had forgotten how quickly these things degenerate into flaming, and how the focus tends to shift from the issue at hand to the personal characteristics, real, imagined, and projected, of the participants. I have been reminded.
I too am reminded and prefer now to just watch the pack circle the kill. I would rather be climbing. I try to use this site for info, a meeting place for partners and also enjoy the quick wit and humour displayed at times.
So far no one mentioned (sorry if I missed it) that the point of their movie is "quote":
In reply to: I think that by not eating meat it allows us to endure higher levels of extreme pressure such as climbing without ropes. One of the reasons for this is that when animals are slaughtered under stress they poison their meat with their adrenalin. This in turn is passed on to us and when we get in a situation such as extreme climbing where our natural adrenalin kicks in then our system becomes overloaded and we freeze up.
When I was a vegetarian (no cigs), I was not a climber and I had a fear of heights and climbing. When I started climbing with more outdoor activities, I started eating meat. It didn't make me then "freeze-up" and then stop climbing. When our "adrenalin" kicks in, it is because of 'fear', not because we have too much adrenalin from eating meat. Fear can be a good thing - it is a natural thing that is supposed to protect us. I am currently reading "The Rock Warrior's Way". It explains that "thoughts" are the things in our mind that we need to control. We need to sort out realistic fears from our imagined fears. What we think, we believe and then react. Getting to understand our thoughts and learning how to control our minds seems to be a better way IMO.
I understand why nebo has brought this out to appeal to the community. I just thought I would mention to Storm and Jinjee however, that perhaps they should do a bit more personal research before they step out to proclaim that by becoming a vegan - people will be able loose their fears (adrenalin) and become a free-soloists. I am currently determined to see if I can do it after a strip of jerky. I may never free-solo (which has nothing to do with fear), but I'll be happy leading a 5.10 someday on trad. You guys kinda picked a controversial outlet.
BTW - "vegan" means no dairy products, cheese or eggs. I don't see how adrenalin is released (animals killed) with the making of cheese & milk.
...and this could go on and on about the "pain" that a carrot feels when it's pulled out of the ground... :roll: geesh - yes, everyone has an opinion. :wink: but that's for another website.
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blondgecko
Moderator
May 18, 2005, 8:38 AM
Post #134 of 315
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I can't believe I just read through nine pages of this drivel. Have the self-righteous amongst you actually looked at these pictures?
Let's use picture 3 as a reference point.
Picture 1 was obviously taken with the cameraman standing behind the enormous flake, putting them just below where the girl is in pic 3. Thus, rather than being exposed above a 70-foot groundfall, they're about 1 metre off an enormous ledge.
Pic #2 appears to be on the section below that - a short, incredibly juggy slab close to the ground. Seriously, I've walked up things like that hands-free. Chance of holds breaking: approximately nil.
Final pic, extremely heavily rotated, is a bit difficult - I'm guessing this was taken facing outwards from near the top of the gully in pic 3 - . Once again, nearest stopping point approximately 1-2 metres below. Grade: ridiculously easy.
Storm, you're obviously a talented photographer - you even managed to fool some of the "experienced climbers" in this thread. The claims that you put your family in danger here are patently ridiculous.
To the authors of all the knee-jerk responses here: get some experience, develop some common sense, and get a life.
:evil:
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slcliffdiver
May 18, 2005, 9:51 AM
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Deleted to take the hook out of my mouth.
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slcliffdiver
May 18, 2005, 10:16 AM
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Deleted due to ODing on irony.
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pda2540
May 18, 2005, 1:25 PM
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I really have to step up here to say something important.
I actually like the term "freestyle" the way they are using it. The term itself is widely used and in many different contexts/sports/activities.
How can they be free 'soloing' when there are two people are doing it together? Sorry - that's not 'soloing' any more.
Seems to me free-styling connotes the concept that there are no rules - grab anything you want - make any move you can. Let your Mom shove you to the next handhold. No style points are being counted here. No facist grading system being imposed. 4th class - 5th class? Who cares?
"Freestyle" - - - nice term. These people are way ahead of you.
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tradman
May 18, 2005, 1:37 PM
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In rock climbing, "soloing" can be alongside as many people as you want. The key to the term is that you are not attached by a rope to your partner while climbing - you are climbing alone, hence "soloing".
There are as many types of soloing as there are styles of climbing: free climbing done alone becomes "free soloing", aid climbing becomes "aid soloing" and so on.
Hope that clears it up for you.
:wink:
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zozo
May 18, 2005, 1:44 PM
Post #139 of 315
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In reply to: I really have to step up here to say something important.
We're waiting.............
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pda2540
May 18, 2005, 1:51 PM
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Sorry - no dice there, dude.
The "soloing" part does not mean "not connected to rope."
Plenty of people "solo" while being roped. The key to what they are doing is "alone."
In my view, what has become accepted jargon should not trump plain language meaning. Open your mind to the possibility that a new term might be useful.
The case at hand - these people are not even conventionally trained climbers - what they are doing is not constrained by your conventions. "Freestyle" seems to capture that well, in my opinion.
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dingus
May 18, 2005, 2:13 PM
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Just what you'd expect from rc.com...
Call the moderators! Call the admins! Someone has ruffled my feathers!
MOMMY! HE PUT HIS KIDS AS RISK!
MOM!!!
MOM???
mom?
(hello???)
DMT
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pmyche
May 18, 2005, 2:25 PM
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This guy solo'ed right past us the other day. Wait a sec...he was right by me... He wasn't soloing at all, the damn poser!
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 2:55 PM
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I guess the most amazing thing to me is that, as a result of these postings in a climbers forum on injuries and accidents, we have climbers writing to a parent to encourage him to continue risking the lives of his daughter and mother.
When I started this thread I had imagined it would be read by people who have an interest in preventing mountaineering and climbing accidents. Certainly there have been some readers who share that interest with me.
Overall though it is clear that this was not a well-selected forum for this purpose; definitely my bad to select it. I go back and look at those photos (which, by they way, the parents posted in a public forum and mailed the link to their entire mail list, so it became public business by their choice) and, even accounting for the trick photography, I see a child whose life has been irresponsibly placed at risk. In this forum, some participants describe it as "hiking choss" or, since they have concluded that it is 4th class, an insignificant risk comparable to bike riding or using public transportation.
Remember, by definition, 4th class is scrambling in a situation with sufficient exposure to produce a serious injury or death in the event of a fall; in my years of guiding, 4th class always meant students were roped up, if not belayed at least connected to handline via a prusik. While experienced climbers frequently climb 4th class terrain unroped (and sometimes die as a consequence), responsible climbers do not generally encourage children to do so.
My judgement, having examined the photographs and photoshopped them several times, remains that this is likely low 5th. But I also feel that the actual rating is beside the point. The point itself, a little girl named Raven, has, I'm afraid, been mostly lost in the majority of posts.
However, it is clear that was an inappropriate forum for the purpose. I made a very unskillful choice in using it as such, and I could have prevented that choice had I taken 10 minutes to read other threads in this forum before posting. My apologies.
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zoratao
May 18, 2005, 3:06 PM
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Seems like the publicity stunt, regardless of how the photo was manipulated, who was in how much danger was successful! :cry: :shock:
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dynosore
May 18, 2005, 3:27 PM
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nebo wrote:
In reply to: I guess the most amazing thing to me is that, as a result of these postings in a climbers forum on injuries and accidents, we have climbers writing to a parent to encourage him to continue risking the lives of his daughter and mother.
Why are you surprised? The world is full of morons. Obviously kids trust thier parents intrinsically up to a certain age, and taking advantage of that to sell your book and/or endanger them is about as low as you can sink. If she wants to solo when she's an adult, that's her choice. She didn't look like she was having too much fun to me.
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fiend
May 18, 2005, 3:36 PM
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Until someone actually goes out to talk to Storm and his family, this is all theory and conjecture.
Issues as serious as this simply cannot be decided by a few armchair CPA agents over the internet!
Anyone with children who contributed to this thread:
How would you enjoy a visit from the CPA because you posted something stupid on the internet?
A few concerned emails to a parent is one thing but I think this was taken too far buy a group of people who have no real idea of what's actually going on.
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noshoesnoshirt
May 18, 2005, 3:45 PM
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Kee-rist I'm glad this jerk-off nebo wasn't around when I was growing up - my poor dad woulda had a lot of 'splainin to do, and I might of ended up a pantywaist like nebo.
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graniteboy
May 18, 2005, 3:58 PM
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Well...Now that Bob Van Belle is physically Threatening people in here....we should all change our minds and call up ventura county CPS and tell them we made a horrible mistake, that we're terribly afraid that an old soft paunched alcoholic climber is "gonna get all up in our face", and that "Storm" is a loving, safe climbing father.......
NOT.
Too much continuous drivel in here. The district attorney and Child Protective Services have been called, as any parent with an I.Q. of 80 or higher would expect when they post photos of their kid and wife being browbeaten to solo some silly assed choss pile. Unfortunately, storm seems not to have those intellectual qualifications.
If the kid is living in a good environment, and this climb was so damned safe, then CPS will leave them alone. If not, then storm will have to do some soul searching when they start taking his kids away.
I know about doing risky things as a kid. I'm one of those guys who is lucky to be alive after all the stupid shit (like soloing 5.10) I did as a young teenager. It's how I got into climbing and freesoloing, both of which I still do a hell of a lot of. There is, however, a huge difference between doing something because you want to, because you're an obsessed climbing kid (my case) and doing it because you've been told by daddy that you will (raven's case).
So good luck beating people up, Bob Van Belle....I hope your health insurance is all paid up, cause running around threatening people and doing that kind of shit has a way of backfiring on you when you run into someone who's meaner than you and tough as hell, and who loves to fight.
In fact, by the looks of you, you could even get paid to take yourself over to the headquarters of the website Bumfights.com and perform....
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wonderwoman
May 18, 2005, 4:06 PM
Post #150 of 315
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In reply to: Anyone with children who contributed to this thread: How would you enjoy a visit from the CPA because you posted something stupid on the internet?
No kidding! At first I had mixed feelings about this thread, but I think that people are taking serious actions without knowing all the facts. Having had foster sisters myself and having worked in a group home for kids and seeing the foster care system up close and personal, I am horrified at the idea of putting just any kid in the hands of social services without real valid cause. The fact is that kids sometimes die in foster care and are even sexually molested and physically abused by other kids in foster care or even by their foster parents. Foster care is a nightmare. If you want a dangerous and unstable place for children, foster care is a sure thing.
This all reminds me of when we took our daughter on the beehive trail in Acadia national park. She was 7 at the time and we were being gawked at by folks who normally don't hit the trail at all and considered the hike as dangerous. I vaguely remember someone asking us if this was 'safe' for her or if she was old enough. We said, yes it's safe. There are iron rungs all over the place and zero exposure. But I wonder if we were pegged as abusive or if someone went as far as to report us to the rangers.
I have a hard time judging these people without actually seeing the climb. It scares me to think that these kids may now be in real danger if they were not before. Not all foster families are angels. Some of them like the extra check and some of them are just predators who like to abuse children.
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