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jpdreamer
May 18, 2005, 4:27 PM
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My point in comparing it to the subway or the sidewalk is this: Is walking along a sidewalk dangerous? Of course! The kid has inately no sense of the danger, they may jump around, run into the street, they could make a lot of mistakes which could kill themselves. Consequently, no responsible parent would let their kid walk down a sidewalk alone, they need to provide adequate safety measures, so when the kid starts to jump off the curb the parent grabs them and sys "No! That's very dangerous Johnny, just look if that car had hit you you would be dead!" And so on. However, if the kid has walked down the sidewalk several times before and is careful, not jumping off the curb, looking both ways before crossing the street, etc, then they have learned how to mitigate the dangers in an unsafe environment and allowing them to do so alone, due to their experience, makes sense and is not endangerment even though they are in a situation where one wrong move could be fatal. People like to say even experienced rock climbers have slipped and fallen and died on 4th class terrain. Well every year experienced street crossers are hit by cars and sidewalk walkers trip and fall into traffic. My friend's brother was killed while crossing a street in downtown Chicago, so these risks are not eliminated.
Storm has said that Raven practiced the scramble with a rope on first and that this is in their backyard essentially. Thus, when introducing her to a risky situation he took measures so she could learn to be safe in an unsafe situation. Nemo talks about how while guiding people, such as urban San Fransiscoites, he always roped them up while tackling 4th class because of the dangers inherent. Good! They havn't leanrned how to be safe in that environment yet, they should be roped up! But it would be pretty rediculous if while at the street corner he said "Alright, now everyone hold hands and follow me while we cross the street. Now first look both ways, alright are we sure a cars are stopped? Okay, now we can cross, but stay with me!" Why? Because they have ample street crossing experience and know how to be safe while doing so. The dangers of an urban area are in their backyard, so to speak. Just like, according to the information presented, this scramble is to Raven.
The tone of the website is troubling, but there are numerous explainations for that, probably to promote this silly adrenalin thing. So, to say based on that without meeting and observing the parents in person, talking to their frineds and neighbors, etc. that the dad is a "David Koresh" type charachter is absurd.
Equally absurd is the notion that adrenalin loaded meat causes people to tense up in scarry situations. I mean deer just eat grass, and you don't see them diving out of the way when a car is bareling down, just tense up and freeze.
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oldcragrat
May 18, 2005, 4:31 PM
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After reading all 11 pages of this (I admit, with some shame), I'm reminded of something my wife and I witnessed while at the video store about a year ago. Some guy had run in to drop his movies off in the drop off slot. Another guy came in right behind him and said he worked for DHS (that's the CPS agency here in Or-y-gun). He even had his ID around his neck to prove it. Apparently, the 1st guy left his sleeping toddler in the car while he rushed in-something most of us with kids have done at least once. Anyway, DHS guy informed this man he had used his cell phone to call the cops, as what he'd done was illegal, and threatened to physically restrain him if he tried to leave befor the police arrived. We left just as the cops were arriving, so didn't see the outcome.
This thread has been very disturbing. I'm a father, and I've worked with at-risk kids in wilderness programs most of my adult life. I am a mandated reporter and I don't know what I'd do. I do know strange things happen when you don't have the whole story... :wtf:
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jt512
May 18, 2005, 5:03 PM
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In reply to: Anyone with children who contributed to this thread: How would you enjoy a visit from the CPA because you posted something stupid on the internet?
On the other hand, if you're stupid enough to post something on the internet that suggests that you are recklessly endangering your child's life, then you you shouldn't be too surprised if someone sees it and calls CPS.
-Jay
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 5:13 PM
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In reply to: Well...Now that Bob Van Belle is physically Threatening people in here
when i talk about getting up in someone's face, it means getting loud and verbal.
contacting the authorities over some flake's tilted photos on a website. please. between your post about me and you actions with the cops, you win my drama queen of the year award. congrats.
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yosemite
May 18, 2005, 5:50 PM
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Was Raven forced or manipulated into doing this climb? That, to me, is the 'crux' of the (non)issue. If she was coerced into being an unwilling pawn used to promote her Dad's DVD, that's a problem. If the climb is in her backyard and she has been romping up it since she was potty trained, no big deal.
We don't know the situation. We don't know if it's Class III or 5.whatever. We don't even know how steep or chossy it really is. We don't know jack.
But why should that keep us from judging others?
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blonde_loves_bolts
May 18, 2005, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: suck a dick, nebo. you're trying to blow all this s--- you started off as if it's part of your personal journey towards the light. meanwhile, you f--- with other people by firing off e-mails to the cops. i'm the father of an autistic 12 year old boy, and am WAY too familiar with people like you...safely on the sidelines, clueless, taking casual potshots at things you don't understand. stay out of flagstaff, b----. i ever see you, i'm gonna get right up in your face. asshole.
If that's not a physical threat, I'd rather not find out what is. Agree or disagree, but have enough respect to do it tastefully.
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 5:58 PM
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bvb, I don't respond to threats or name-calling. I consider myself a mature adult, a professional in my field, and a level-headed individual. I see something that might or might not be a serious situation. To me, it looks like one misstep will send one of these kids to Davy Jones' Locker. I could be wrong. If there is nothing wrong with what these parents are doing, then CPS will find out for themselves. That is what they do. What it looks like to me however, and to many other people, is that these parents are needlessly risking the lives of their children on the advise, nay, insistance of their parents. If that is the case, then Storm and Jinjee do not deserve to keep their beautiful children. I would really feel terrible if I chose to do nothing, and one day saw in the news that "a young girl in CA plunged to her death today while freesoloing at the insistance of her father." Could anyone really live with themselves knowing that one measley phone call could have meant the difference between life and death for these kids...after it was too late??
Not to mention that in my job, I have a duty to report cases of suspected child abuse, neglect, or endangerment. This more than qualifies. BVB, I don't care what you call me or how you threaten me. Sticks and stones mate, and I'd looooooove to see you come up here to AK and start some shit. Go right ahead if you care so much. I'll be waiting waiting with bells on.
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couchwarrior
May 18, 2005, 6:08 PM
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I think it's time for an old-fashioned thread locking.
I doubt any of you keyboard gladiators will ever actually mix it up but I'd be willing to kick in $50 towards airfare or a motel room to make it happen so you can take your dick-measuring somewhere else. Maybe one of the mods can collect the $$$$.
I'm serious. Just let me know where to paypal my $50. I'm only contributing towards travel expenses for one of you he-men, though. No Emergicare invoices!
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yosemite
May 18, 2005, 6:14 PM
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In reply to: bvb, I don't respond to threats or name-calling. Blah, blah, blah. I'll be waiting waiting with bells on.
I think you just responded. :lol:
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mackavus
May 18, 2005, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: This whole f---ing thread makes me want to take a shower.
This whole fucking thread makes me want to masturbate, and then jiz all over my hands and mix it with mayonaise and then rub it on the grass and see if it attracts ants.
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wonderwoman
May 18, 2005, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: If there is nothing wrong with what these parents are doing, then CPS will find out for themselves. That is what they do.
I think your heart is in the right place and you're intentions are good. However, I think you have too much faith in the failing safety net of foster care. Once CPS comes in and physically takes your kids, it's not easy to get them back. They usually get split up according to gender, age and availability of beds.
I've knew a good 12 year old kid who had to spend a few nights in a jail cell (surrounded by real adult criminals) just because there was no beds open anywhere else. He wasn't a criminal, but was taken from his home because he was being abused in his foster home. I am not going to get into details here, but I've known kids that have permanent physical and emotional scars from short term stays in foster care. I think you have to ask yourself if the perceived risks you see in these pictures adequately measure up to the real risk of placing these kids in state custody.
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feanor007
May 18, 2005, 6:33 PM
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trust the over-litigous california people to screw somthing up.
there is a differance between encouraging some one to do something and forcing them.
nebo-> you've given your background, and from the topic title 'scolding' i don't think you intended the CPS to get involved, but i want to know your connection with storm. i can't believe you ramdomly saw this and decided to make it your first post. you both have long climbing histories in the same area, so i'm thinking you know each other and came to rc.com to get some evidence for an argument the two of you've been having
bvb-> amen
graniteboy-> i don't know what it's like where your from, but here in kentucky, you mess with someones family, and we don't take it very kindly. the whole family, bothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, and third cousins is gonna let ya know how they feel. so keep your crap over on the west coast.
flame away about how we are backwards hicks and what not, but at least we've got our honor
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jkornelis
May 18, 2005, 6:49 PM
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It must be official... Since I do Foster care, I must be an evil, child molesting, money hungry person. I get paid to put foster care kids into hard labor while I sit and surf the Internet for kiddie porn all day long. :roll:
Yes there are bad parents :shock: and yes there are bad foster care parents. :oops: Please do not put all of us in one category, that is the full extent of prejudice!
In fact I am in more debt because of MY children. I try all I can to help them develop into adults who will not make the same mistakes their parents made.
If you are not pleased with how some foster care homes are run... Open your home to these children, so they are not put in the few "bad" foster homes.
Please Flame me more because I extend love and care to those whose biological parents could not!!!
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md3
May 18, 2005, 7:05 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=45800
Storm shouldn't be advertising himself as a climbing instructor, but the reactions in this thread are offensive. He clearly cares about his family and hes out there doing things with them.
There were better options than reporting this to CPS.
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wonderwoman
May 18, 2005, 7:13 PM
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In reply to: It must be official... Since I do Foster care, I must be an evil, child molesting, money hungry person. I get paid to put foster care kids into hard labor while I sit and surf the Internet for kiddie porn all day long. :roll: Yes there are bad parents :shock: and yes there are bad foster care parents. :oops: Please do not put all of us in one category, that is the full extent of prejudice! In fact I am in more debt because of MY children. I try all I can to help them develop into adults who will not make the same mistakes their parents made. If you are not pleased with how some foster care homes are run... Open your home to these children, so they are not put in the few "bad" foster homes. Please Flame me more because I extend love and care to those whose biological parents could not!!!
Sorry that you took offense. I also grew up with foster-sisters in my house. My mom was always taking in stray cats and stray kids. My parents were very good to them. However, everytime a kid goes into foster care, it's a gamble because you don't know where they end up. They would be lucky to end up in your house, but unfortunately there is just no telling.
PS - The toenail crisis is under control. Thanks for you PM :D
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 7:22 PM
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Hi everyone,
Storm and I have had some very productive offline emails around this topic, which we are both watching closely. I want to give him kudos for his strength of character--not once has gotten hooked enough to launch counterattacks. Instead, he has very graciously taken the initiative to keep communication going with me. From my reading of his emails, I feel he and Jinjee have used this as an opportunity for dialogue, self-examination, learning, and growth. I admire that a great deal in person. I want to be more like that when I grow up.
Based on what he has written, I feel that my original concern has been addressed. If he and his family climb more in the future, I am confident that he and Jinjee both will thoughtfully consider all that has been written here, all sides of the arguments, and that whatever choice they then make will be influenced by what we have written.
Thank you everyone for your participation. I wish we could have done this with a little more light, a little less heat. But climbers climb with passion, and it spills over...
Storm, if you would like to post our most recent emails as postscript here, feel free to. It might be a welcomed closure for those who have given their time to this debate.
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: suck a dick, nebo. you're trying to blow all this s--- you started off as if it's part of your personal journey towards the light. meanwhile, you f--- with other people by firing off e-mails to the cops. i'm the father of an autistic 12 year old boy, and am WAY too familiar with people like you...safely on the sidelines, clueless, taking casual potshots at things you don't understand. stay out of flagstaff, b----. i ever see you, i'm gonna get right up in your face. asshole.
Hi BVD, you have indicated that you didn't mean this as a threat. However, when I read it I certainly took it as one, as I imagine most people would. I can't say I feel threatened enough to stay out of flagstaff--that's a tad absurd. But it is certainly an unpleasant (and ineffective) way to communicate your opinion. Otherwise, thanks for your participation in this forum.
And by the way, yes, this and everything I do is part of my personal journey toward the light. Often through the fog.
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If there is nothing wrong with what these parents are doing, then CPS will find out for themselves. That is what they do. I think your heart is in the right place and you're intentions are good. However, I think you have too much faith in the failing safety net of foster care. Once CPS comes in and physically takes your kids, it's not easy to get them back. They usually get split up according to gender, age and availability of beds. I've knew a good 12 year old kid who had to spend a few nights in a jail cell (surrounded by real adult criminals) just because there was no beds open anywhere else. He wasn't a criminal, but was taken from his home because he was being abused in his foster home. I am not going to get into details here, but I've known kids that have permanent physical and emotional scars from short term stays in foster care. I think you have to ask yourself if the perceived risks you see in these pictures adequately measure up to the real risk of placing these kids in state custody.
You are right, foster care can be hard on children. Certainly, in an ideal world, children should stay with their parents. However, in an ideal world, children should be able to trust their parents to keep them safe, prohibit unsafe behavior, and protect them from danger. None of the above is going on in this situation. In fact, in the case of these children, the parents are encouraging "laying their life on the line because it makes them a better person...."
Better to be in foster care (the majority of which is perfectly fine-not all foster parents are sexual predators or run sweat shops) than dead due to the irresponsibility of the biological parents.
I'm not backing down on this. CPS has been called and notified. The ball has been started rolling.
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bvb
May 18, 2005, 9:05 PM
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i had resolved to drop this and post no more, but i gotta say it, micah, you are such a monumental ass.
all i can imagine is that you are too young, and have experienced far too few of life's hard knocks, to have any real idea about what you are doing. at least i can take solace in the notion that if cps does "look into this", they will quickly dismiss it as an errant report from some knucklehead who spends way to much time on the internet.
wanna buy a bridge, micah?
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johnhemlock
May 18, 2005, 10:03 PM
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I visited Storm's website and all I saw was a nuclear family doing the best they can - loving parents and healthy, curious children. Perhaps the partially-hydrogenated, must see TV watching, Williams Sonoma nesting instinctive, small minded cubicle dwellers among us are bothered by something more than the photos?
I guess the only question I have of Storm is this:
Want to adopt a 36 year old man?
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micahmcguire
May 18, 2005, 10:27 PM
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In reply to: i had resolved to drop this and post no more, but i gotta say it, micah, you are such a monumental ass. all i can imagine is that you are too young, and have experienced far too few of life's hard knocks, to have any real idea about what you are doing. at least i can take solace in the notion that if cps does "look into this", they will quickly dismiss it as an errant report from some knucklehead who spends way to much time on the internet. wanna buy a bridge, micah?
I hope that CPS does dismiss it as nothing. I hope there is nothing. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Where there's no smoke, there's no fire. Hopefully this situation is under control. If not, it will be brought under control somehow.
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storm
May 18, 2005, 10:46 PM
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Storm's final post
I thought that I would put up a final post so as to bring a sense of closure
to this forum or my part in it anyway.
I would like to start off by saying that I do not do really high free climbs
with young people anymore. I did do it in the early eighties for five years
and I'm not apologizing for it. At the end of five years with no one so
much as breaking a finger nail I stopped. I have no intention of doing free
solo climbing anymore with my or anyone else's kids.
I do have every intention of doing the type of mental climbing/hiking with
my kids where it looks really steep but if you should by chance fall you
won't break any bones or get really hurt. I also plan on making films that
feature climbing scenes in them that look really steep. I will achieve this
by camera angles and special effects. The films that I'm making are not a
how to on rock climbing, the climbing featured in these films is part of the
story line.
Now I don't wish to condemn the whole rock climbing community because in the
last few days I have met some truly fine people. I have tried to read every
post and respond to every email. And I feel like I'm on pretty sure ground
when I say that some of you have totally crossed the line.
It is one thing to communicate with someone that you don't agree with what
they are doing. I can take that. For the five years that I did have my
school I took a lot of heat. But I really don't need the approval of the
group to validate me.
But I think that you totally cross the line when you don't get all of the
facts straight and then go and try to get someone's kids taken away. There
were many people in the forum who said that it looked like the kids were in
no danger it was just the camera angle. Which is what it was.
The thing that really disturbs me about this whole affair is the level of
rudeness. If I were still doing free climbing and I was attacked on that
level by a group of people it would just make me more determined to keep
doing it. I just don't give a fuck what other people think.
My position is that I'm neither for nor against people teaching solo
climbing to young people. Each situation is totally different and before I
could pass judgement I would have to meet all of the people involved see the
climbing site and get a real feeling for whether or not this is right.
But to make all of these judgements based on a website for a film, and then
try to contact child services and get people's kids taken away has left me
with such a level of disgust that I really haven't totally processed yet, it
is just too big.
So many of you come off as such self righteous, pompous assholes, filled
with such phony anger until it has really made Jinjee and I totally sick to
our stomachs.
Each of us comes to the mountain for a different reason and it is very
personal. Like the girl in Hawaii who had her arm bitten off by a shark.
Her Dad let her get back in the water; should he have his child taken away?
Or do we feel that we are seeing someone who has true courage
I called Child Protective Services and explained the situation to them and I told them that I would meet with them anytime if they had any questions about whether or not my kids were in any real danger. They are not going to take my kids away so now we all just need to move on.
I have no intention of ever being a part of the Rock Climbing Community. but I am going to include a lot of the posts and emails that I got, in the final film because I think that this is a huge issue that spills over into other facets of life. Some of the posts were so vicious as to be unbelievable. My kids were actually scared. Raven and Jome started packing knives and my four year girl kept asking if the Rock Climbers were coming to get us.
In parting I would like to once again say that I have met some really fine
people in this community and I'm going to close with an email that I got
from B.V.B.
all the best
storm
Hi Storm
i've been climbing for 35 years, and i'm totally in synch with how you are
raising your kids. i have an autistic boy, who learned to climb before he
could walk, and had him soloing 30' routes by the time he was 4 -- patagonia
even took a pic of him soloing and ran it in outside magazine.
without getting too much into ego crap, i am a "famous" climber (lots of
climbing and rock and ice magazine covers, free ascents of el cap, blah blah
blah)
point is -- in the unlikely event that you guys get any flak -- please feel
free to ask me for help. in addition to being a name-brand climber, i'm a
senior career park ranger with the National Park Service, yadda yadda
you people just follow your bliss. it gives me peace of mind knowing there
are still so many fellow travelers such as you and your family out there!
peace
out
bob van belle
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erisspirit
May 18, 2005, 11:02 PM
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I have avoiding posting at all because I thought this was all nonsense.
As I child I climbed many things just like in the photos. Remember the angle makes it look steeper than it is. I think people on this site over reacted without all the information, and calling CPS is something you do when you KNOW there is a problem, and not for a couple photos that were edited to make it look harder than it was. I am so tempted to hunt out the climb that all this is over.
Although I find their lifestyle a bit odd. I see a solid family unit... OMG TWO PARENTS!!! count them TWO. I think I have one friend other than myself that can brag that one.
Storm: you have lovely children and Ojai is a gorgeous area and I wish I had it as my backyard too
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pt
May 18, 2005, 11:24 PM
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My one post in this thread was in support of Storm, yet I am still embarrassed to be part of the RC.com community right now. I think Storm's final post is very eloquently written and should rightfully end the speculation and witch hunting.
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