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enigma
Apr 12, 2003, 7:23 AM
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----Do you use any of the above to supplements???,( or any others natural or synthetic,) and has it increased your overall performance in climbing or recovery time-----:?: :?:
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mzllr
Apr 12, 2003, 7:45 AM
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i've never used hgh (not sure i've heard of it before), but when i was lifting pretty seriously i used creatine and protein shakes with ginseng and pollen.
when i first started using creatine, i did the loading phase (4x @ 5grams, or something like that, for a week). towards the end of the week, i noticed pains in my chest and others i spoke to said they had the same reaction. once i cut back to 1x a day i didn't have any problems. to avoid dehydration (creatine stores water in your muscles, depriving the rest of your body of it) i carried around a water jug that i had to drink from constantly. i did notice a pretty quick increase in my strength but it didn't really do anything for my recovery time.
if you do use creatine, i would suggest skipping the loading phase and just using it 1x a day, one month on, one month off. but for what it's worth, after using that stuff i wouldn't use it again. i think a healthy diet provides your body what it needs and goes a lot farther than supplements can.
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illimaniman
Apr 12, 2003, 2:00 PM
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I agree with skipping the loading phase for creatine. The recent data I've seen recommends that.
Creatine WILL help you add bulk, but most of it will be extra water stored at the cellular level throughout your body. You'll look bigger, and you should have some extra strength. Keep in mind that once you quit taking Creatine, you'll lose some weight right away as your body loses the extra water (for me it's about 6-7 pounds).
But, if you're going to choose one supplement, I would go with a good protein powder (I use "Designer Protein"). Besides your normal healthy diet, take a good dose of protein after a hard workout, and especially the next day, and your body should definitely build muscle faster.
HGH - that stuff scares me, same with ephedrine.
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jds100
Apr 12, 2003, 3:06 PM
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Human Growth Hormone is, I believe, available by prescription only, and would have to be prescribed for a medical condition, not simply as a "nutritional" supplement. (If a doctor offered to provide it for you, I'd have serious misgivings.)
After looking at your Profile, I'm wondering why you're asking the question about supplements, but that's your business. From personal experience -and that's the only place any advice can really come from- I can pretty much agree with the two comments about creatine. It is a naturally occuring substance, so supplementation is just that, i.e. you're adding to the amount that is already there. It will add "bulk" to your appearance, and a bit to your baseline strength, but it won't aid recovery, per se. (To the extent that you may be able to lift a little more in the weight room than you would have otherwise, you might actually need a little more recovery from the relatively harder workout.)
As far as ginseng, I've read so many comments, and most have been concerned with which type of ginseng to use. Yes, I've read a lot of comments and "articles" that endorse the benefits to recovery, but it has seemed marginal in my experience, and not worth the expense of the "right kind" of ginseng, so... Do some research before you waste the money. Maybe go with ginseng tea.
I definetely believe in L-Glutamine as a supplement to aid in recovery. L-Glutamine is an amino acid that, again, occurs naturally in your diet and in your body. An additional amount will aid in recovery, both during and after your workout. One of the most important ingredients of your fluid replacement drink, for consumption throughout your workout and throughout your climbing day, is L-Glutamine. It can be purchased inexpensively in various bulk quantities, as a powder (recommended) or in pills, from www.supplementdirect.com. Each dose is very small, and basically tasteless, and can be added to a protein drink or smoothie. It doesn't add bulk, and you don't need to think "If some is good, more is better!" Just get 1 to 4 doeses per day, depending on how hard you're working out and/ or climbing. And, remember that you need to have it in your system for a few days as part of your diet; you won't benefit from it as much if you just use it on the workout days.
Protein powder (whey and egg powder is best) is a must for anyone working out hard. Even for the non-athlete, protein powder to supplement the normal diet is excellent to maintain a more even energy level thoughout the day. Depending on how hard you're working out or climbing (how often and how hard; "intensity" = amount of work done relative to amount of time to do the work), think in terms of about 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. You can reduce to approximately 3/4 gram per pound if you're not working quite as hard. You don't need to spend a lot of money on name-brand protein supplements. And, by the way, the most common is whey protein (that's what I use), and it's almost as good protein as whey+egg, and it's cheaper. Look around and get the cheapest whey protein you can find (Vitamin World has Value Whey, for example). More expensive brands have more bells and whistles and advertising that you're paying for, that don't add value for your dollar. The only significant difference could be that a more expensive whey protein has a lower lactose index, which might make it easier to digest if that's an issue. Soy protein is available for vegetarians, but I do not recommend it otherwise. It's poor quality compared to whey, it's expensive, it doesn't mix well, and it's not always easy on the digestive system (or those around you).
Another thing you need to make sure of is that you're getting enough carbohydrates to meet your needs. Again, depending on the level of intensity of your workouts (climbing and otherwise), think in terms of 2-3 grams per pound per day if you're working out about 2 hours per day, up to a nearly-ridiculous amount of 900 grams per day, to maintain the stores of glycogen in your muscles. If you're doing shorter, but high intensity (meaning lots of hard work in a short time, as opposed to longer time spent on easier levels of work), you might need less carbs than that. Work with a simple formula of 100 grams per hour of workout if you're under 100 lbs; 250 grams per hour of workout if you weigh 150 lbs; and increase a bit if you think you're bonking out before your workout is over, or if you're crashing right away after the workout. Decrease the ratio if you're not working out as much, to avoid storeing as fat. (You can get Complex Carbohydrates in bulk from Supplement Direct, too. I don't work for them, by the way; I just think they have good products at good prices.)
Start the day with one to one-and-a-half servings of whey protein mixed up in a fruit smoothie, with a serving of L-Glutamine. Mix in a serving of Complex Carbs if you need more carbs. Consume more protein (a serving) with a small amount of carbs (1/2 to 1 serving) throughout the day, at about 3 or 4 hour intervals to keep your energy level even and consistent. Before the workouts, about 1/2 to 1 hour prior, drink 16 oz. of water with about a serving of Complex Carbs and a serving of L-Glutamine. During the workout, drink from a mix of 24 oz. of water with a scant amount of Complex Carbs and 1/2 to 1 serving of L-Glutamine. After the workout, within 1/2 hour, replenish the glycogen with simple carbs (Dextrose from Supplement Direct, or pop-tarts, etc.), and within an hour after the workout, consume a shake of 1-and-a-half to 2 servings of whey protein plus a serving of Complex Carbs and L-Glutamine.
It only sounds complicated.
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wildtrail
Apr 12, 2003, 3:47 PM
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Supplements are a crock of shit. Just like all that crap (and that's what it is...crap) that they make for bodybuilders (which I once was).
Just like people think diet pills help. No, they don't. In talking to a dietician, diet pills are only resonsible for 1 to 2% of total weight loss. However, it can be up to 5%. Wow. :roll:
Supplements are in the same boat, although they do have more of an effect than 1 to 2%. Still, they are responsible for a very, very small portion of your performance and a waste of money.
I've used them all and they are all full of it. Whether a person says they help or not, doesn't matter. People say they lost weight from pills, too. :roll: They don't help. What does help is proper diet and exercise.
Food for fuel.
After climbing, stretch. It reduces soreness. Before climbing, stretch. It reduces chance of injury. If you injure something, just insure you are getting your proteins and vitamins. You can take one supplement for this, it's called a multi-vitamin. :wink: Also, if you injure something, don't be stupid. If the doctor says three weeks, stay off/don't use whatever is injured for three weeks. Climbing isn't that important, unless you're an idiot and like to re-injure and injury and wait even longer. Three weeks won't kill you. :wink:
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rockzen
Apr 12, 2003, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: Supplements are a crock of s___. Just like all that crap (and that's what it is...crap) that they make for bodybuilders (which I once was)... ...Supplements are in the same boat, although they do have more of an effect than 1 to 2%. Still, they are responsible for a very, very small portion of your performance and a waste of money....
RockZen
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hroldan
Apr 12, 2003, 5:07 PM
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Well, everybody is diferent but why taking those suplements?
try to feel happy with who you are. I'm really thin no matter what i do. I sure get strong, really strong but my look will never be like Conan (Arnold S.)
I just think that any person wants to get better but who will reach the goal?? Mister X or Mister X plus tons of suplements.
Try to ask to yourself what made you reach your goals: you??? or 40% of you plus 60% of medicines.
If you alter the formula, I think is like cheating. Is not you 100%.
Imagine the picture: Mr. J wins the world climbing comp with no problems and then he is granted the prize.
"The first place goes for Mr. Fast Protein who converted Mr. J into a mounster climber." get the point? who gets the prize??
I mean all this when people wants to be somebody else.
Some suplements can be taken for certain reasons. If it wasnt for the suplements, some big guys would have to eat like 7 complete chickens and 4 steaks per day. Instead you can take 2 shakes...
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zerogravity
Apr 12, 2003, 5:36 PM
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While it was only my own experience, I found that taking creatine did nothing besides packing on useless water weight. I wanted a little extra help to get results from lifting but it wasn't worth the detriments to my climbing. I was hauling around extra weight and sweating like a greasy pack mule on tough routes. For a little while I couldn't figure out why I was sweating so bad, then it occured to me that strenous routes might have been working the water out of my muscles. I can see it's advantages for people who want to get results a little quicker from lifting but if climbing matter to you, I'd stay away from creatine. I think the best bet is eating right, and maybe throwing in a protien supplement.
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keinangst
Apr 12, 2003, 6:07 PM
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If you find it hard to get your required combination of protein/fat/carbs from REGULAR eating, sure, supplements can help.
I drink 1-2 protein shakes a day, with yogurt, milk, peanut butter, and a banana with chocolate powder. This is really only helpful because I'm at work all day and don't have the time to sit and eat 4-6 small meals a day.
I would definitely steer clear of HGH and all similar products (also HMB). There really aren't any long-term studies to show potentially hazardouns effects, like enlarged prostate or hair loss (two common results from hormone manipulation in men).
I agree that a good multi-vitamin is one of the best supplements there is, and it's dirt cheap.
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therelic
Apr 12, 2003, 6:19 PM
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Instead of experimenting on yourself and perhaps interpreting the results incorrectly you can save yourself some time by accessing information that is as scientifically sound as possible. If you think there is no threat to experimenting on yourself or simply using the local health clubs nutritionist or trainer ask some of the professional athletes that have cancer or screwed up kidneys and livers. You might find the following links useful and if you are really serious I would recommend seeing a qualified Registered Dietician that works with athletes.
Bill
http://teaching.ucdavis.edu/nut10/applegate.htm
http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/coleman/coleman.html
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enigma
Apr 13, 2003, 4:35 AM
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jds100 *writes:
" After looking at your profile ;I'm wondering why you're asking the
question about supplements, but that's your business. From personal experience -and that's the only place any advice can really come from- I can pretty much agree with the two comments about creatine. It is a naturally occuring substance, so supplementation is just that, i.e. you're adding to the amount that is already there. It will add "bulk" to your appearance, and a bit to your baseline strength, but it won't aid recovery, per se. (To the extent that you may be able to lift a little more in the weight room than you would have otherwise, you might actually need a little more recovery from the relatively harder workout.)
I decided against creatine for now, I don't want bulk.
I definetely believe in L-Glutamine as a supplement to aid in recovery. L-Glutamine is an amino acid that, again, occurs naturally in your diet and in your body. An additional amount will aid in recovery, both during and after your workout. One of the most important ingredients of your fluid replacement drink, for consumption throughout your workout and throughout your climbing day, is L-Glutamine. It can be purchased inexpensively in various bulk quantities, as a powder (recommended) or in pills, from www.supplementdirect.com. Each dose is very small, and basically tasteless, and can be added to a protein drink or smoothie. It doesn't add bulk, and you don't need to think "If some is good, more is better!" Just get 1 to 4 doeses per day, depending on how hard you're working out and/ or climbing. And, remember that you need to have it in your system for a few days as part of your diet; you won't benefit from it as much if you just use it on the workout days.
I just bought this l-glutamine-- I hope it works with the recovery from running .
Protein powder (whey and egg powder is best) is a must for anyone working out hard. Even for the non-athlete, protein powder to supplement the normal diet is excellent to maintain a more even energy level thoughout the day. Depending on how hard you're working out or climbing (how often and how hard; "intensity" = amount of work done relative to amount of time to do the work), think in terms of about 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. You can reduce to approximately 3/4 gram per pound if you're not working quite as hard. You don't need to spend a lot of money on name-brand protein supplements. And, by the way, the most common is whey protein (that's what I use), and it's almost as good protein as whey+egg, and it's cheaper. Look around and get the cheapest whey protein you can find (Vitamin World has Value Whey, for example). More expensive brands have more bells and whistles and advertising that you're paying for, that don't add value for your dollar. The only significant difference could be that a more expensive whey protein has a lower lactose index, which might make it easier to digest if that's an issue. Soy protein is available for vegetarians, but I do not recommend it otherwise. It's poor quality compared to whey, it's expensive, it doesn't mix well, and it's not always easy on the digestive system (or those around you).
I decided to drink some protein drinks-generally it gives me a bit of a stomach ache,
all of them even soy.
Thanks to everyone-- now I'll let you know if theres a noticeable improvement in my performance or my recovery. :idea:
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overlord
May 7, 2003, 9:29 AM
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i dont use any suplements.
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dirtineye
May 8, 2003, 12:15 AM
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I'm with wildtrail.
You can get plenty strong without supplemsnts.
That stuff is a huge racket, companies make a lot of money brainwashing average athletes into buying sport drinks and protein supplements, and on and on and on...
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enigma
May 8, 2003, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: I'm with wildtrail. You can get plenty strong without supplemsnts. That stuff is a huge racket, companies make a lot of money brainwashing average athletes into buying sport drinks and protein supplements, and on and on and on...
--Well to each there own, I was able to climb 8 days straight in J.tree a few weeks ago, not alot of climbs per day,but still :!: towards the end I was getting a bit tired, but I wasn't sleeping much anyway. :roll: Who knows really(,it seems to help me a bit,)-but I do cardio most days too, so that was more of my reasoning, for supplements-(for recovery.)
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malaclypse
May 8, 2003, 12:02 PM
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hi,
my general advise is NOT to use Creatine as a supplement.
I used to use creatine before I got into climbing, and yes it added a lot of strenght, so it was only normal that I decided to use it to add more finger strenght and arm strenght as well.
At first everything seemed to work out very well, I was able to climb my first french grade 6A within 3 months.
however about that same date my arms started to hurt really a lot and soon it was even impossible to lift a coca cola can, I can't describe the hurt I felt.
So I had to go to a sports physician, and he told me that because the mussles one uses for climbing normally are not put under that much strain and because I used Creatine those mussles started to grow too rapidly.
So the fleece covering the mussles in my arms got to narrow. I had at that time 2 options: 1. quiting climbing for several months
2. surgery and cutting the fleece open.
I decided to stop using creatine and to stop climbing for some months.
So decide for yourself.
Personally I know that in the end I didn't gain anything by using Creatine. The time I won by using it I lost by having to stop climbing for some time.
kim
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enigma
May 8, 2003, 5:45 PM
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In reply to: hi, my general advise is NOT to use Creatine as a supplement. I used to use creatine before I got into climbing, and yes it added a lot of strenght, so it was only normal that I decided to use it to add more finger strenght and arm strenght as well. At first everything seemed to work out very well, I was able to climb my first french grade 6A within 3 months. however about that same date my arms started to hurt really a lot and soon it was even impossible to lift a coca cola can, I can't describe the hurt I felt. So I had to go to a sports physician, and he told me that because the mussles one uses for climbing normally are not put under that much strain and because I used Creatine those mussles started to grow too rapidly. So the fleece covering the mussles in my arms got to narrow. I had at that time 2 options: 1. quiting climbing for several months 2. surgery and cutting the fleece open. I decided to stop using creatine and to stop climbing for some months. So decide for yourself. Personally I know that in the end I didn't gain anything by using Creatine. The time I won by using it I lost by having to stop climbing for some time. kim
Re-Read my above post, I'm not using creatine either :!: :!: :roll:
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jt512
May 9, 2003, 1:41 AM
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In reply to: ...really(,it seems to help me a bit,)-but...
Randee, for $3.24 you can buy a used style manual here.
-Jay
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enigma
May 9, 2003, 6:14 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...really(,it seems to help me a bit,)-but... Randee, for $3.24 you can buy a used style manual here. -Jay
Jay, You really should know better, stay on the topic at hand.:roll: :idea:
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gogo
Jun 3, 2005, 11:31 PM
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As much as one wants to call using supplements cheating, a lot of high level climbers do take them as part of their training.
Todd Skinner's Rock Ranch in Hueco, where a lot of extremely strong climbers have trained had climbers taking about 25 different supplements per day (amino acids, glucosamine, MSM, etc.) in addition to their diet.
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