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jefffski
Jun 9, 2005, 7:57 PM
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recently i have been doing a bit of tr soloing. i use a petzl microcender that works quite well. i weight the bottom of the fixed line to my pack to provide some tension in the rope to help the device move up more easily.
i would like to tie some back-up knots behind me as i move up but with the weight of the pack on the fixed line i find this difficult or impossible.
i would appreciate any suggestions on how to tie these back-up knots.
thanks
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brad84
Jun 9, 2005, 8:06 PM
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tie a fig8 on a bight in the center of your rope. clip this knot via 2 locking biners to your anchor. the setup is similar to a rap setup except that pulling one end of the rope wont pull the rope down. simple. attach ascender (i recommend the basic actually) to one half of the rope & tie back up knots in the other half, you can clip into these as you climb. of course the drawback w/ this method is that you can only TRsolo pitches which are one half your rope's length.
a less viable (in my opinion) alternative would be to pre-tie knots (butterfly) in your single line. as you approach the knot while you're climbing FIRST clip into the knot THEN unclip your ascender and place it above the knot. of course this can prove to be a problematic method. i have never used it; only the first method.
a pro to the former method is redundancy- your ascending one line and clipping another; you are always attached to the system in two ways. that of course is my major problem with the latter method: it is never redundant as you are only ever attached to the system by one method.
i hope that was clear for you...
if youre still confused, its never a bad idea to ask a real live person to show you.
be safe, and enjoy
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jefffski
Jun 9, 2005, 8:44 PM
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i understand. thank you
i had thought of using the other half for back up and will prob do this. i was just curious about how to tie back knots BEHIND me as i ascend as the rope is quite taut.
jeff
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mike_gibson
Jun 9, 2005, 8:59 PM
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I have been using a petzl micro-cender on one half of the rope with a grigri on the other for the back-up. Both halves of rope anchored seperately.
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vawwyakr
Jun 9, 2005, 9:25 PM
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To do what you're asking for (tieing knots behind you) what is stopping you now?
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jefffski
Jun 9, 2005, 11:55 PM
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In reply to: To do what you're asking for (tieing knots behind you) what is stopping you now?
the rope tension. the rope is weighted by my pack. to tie a knot i would have to lift the pack off the ground and then find a way to get some slack.
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vawwyakr
Jun 10, 2005, 2:14 AM
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In reply to: the rope tension. the rope is weighted by my pack. to tie a knot i would have to lift the pack off the ground and then find a way to get some slack. |
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maimed
Jun 10, 2005, 2:26 AM
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You could also, as the previous poster might suggest, try tying your free end to something not quite as heavy as your pack.
My Yates Rocker doesn't need very much weight to pull the slack through as I climb on TR Solo. (I have to admit I have yet to attempt to tie a back up knot below me)
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rocloco
Jun 10, 2005, 5:42 PM
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You can anchor your rope on the bottom to something solid (with enough slack to climb & to tie back ups) or just tie a fig 8 loop at the 1/2 way point on your rope and clip it into the TR biners. Pre-tie fig 8's on one strand of the rope and clip these with a leash as you climb. Use your solo device on the other strand.
The extra strand does get in the way a bit, but you get used to it. I usually stop clipping the back up strand after 20 ft. or so and just "run it out" on the solo device. I hesitate to use "run it out" in this context, but I guess that's what it is.
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jefffski
Jun 11, 2005, 4:28 AM
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sounds like a good idea to use the 2nd strand. i just hate falling on my microcender especially when i am above it-it hangs just a bit below my belay loop. unless i drag it up to belly button height, which i do when i am making a hard move, i will have a fall of about 1-2 feet. not much really, but it is a 'lead' fall and i don't trust it as much as i trust a belayer.
i have read of using a prussik above me but then i would have to push that ahead of me. kind of a drag.
maybe i'll just boulder more :twisted: . after all i do climb in squamish. hehe
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thetroutscout
Jun 11, 2005, 5:26 AM
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Using half or a second rope is the only way to go. I would also recommend using a chest harness.
In reply to: i just hate falling on my microcender especially when i am above it-it hangs just a bit below my belay loop. unless i drag it up to belly button height, which i do when i am making a hard move, i will have a fall of about 1-2 feet. not much really, but it is a 'lead' fall and i don't trust it as much as i trust a belayer.
A chest harness will help the problem on the ascender flapping around and really takes any "fall" out of the picture. The chest harness helps pull the device up and keep no slack in the system. When I "fall" I am instantly caught and no shock is put on the device. This is important especially when using a toothed acsender. I've also found I don't need the weight of a pack to feed smoothly.
^^ike
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noman668
Jun 12, 2005, 5:38 AM
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I went through a period obsessing over the toprope soloing question- death modified gri-gri's, weights on the rope, clipping back-up knots on a separate strand, etc... I finally decided to give it up...An experienced friend put it to me like this: for all the trouble you might get yourself into and all the hassle of rigging this stuff, why not just boulder or get a partner?
Made plenty of sense to me.
Not trying to discourage you, just another perspective.
Have fun out there.
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rocloco
Jun 13, 2005, 2:17 AM
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Don't give up on the roped soloing. It can be pretty fun and once you get everything figured out you can move pretty fast. Get a Wren Silent Partner though. The $225 price tag is excessive, but worth it. It works great for leading and and TR. It feeds very smoothly and doesn't have teeth to mess up your rope. Plus, it catches you even if you're upside down. Never failed once, but I still use a back up to clip into as a safety for TR.
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jhwnewengland
Jun 13, 2005, 2:41 AM
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I find I only need a few pounds to effectively weight the end of the rope--an empty pack works fine and I can easily pull up slack to tie backup knots in the rope below me. I'm using a Petzl Mini Traxion, which slides with almost zero resistance... not sure if a microcender has more resistance and therefore needs more weight.
I have to admit I usually don't tie a backup. The most I ever do is one about 20 feet off the deck to make sure I don't hit the ground. I don't want to have to hang on the rope in order to tie a backup knot. It's a calculated risk, but I'm confident that my system is good and that I won't take a large fall. I also have the problem of the device hanging below waist level so a fall ends up being several feet long. A chest harness won't work with a Mini Traxion unless I drill a hole in it.
P.S. Don't give it up! Rope soloing is WAY different than bouldering, and a great way to get a workout when you only have a couple hours to climb.
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stone_glswrx
Jun 13, 2005, 3:18 AM
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jefffski
Jun 18, 2005, 10:11 AM
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In reply to: why not just boulder Have fun out there.
hell yeah--i bought a bouldering mat. I'm a pad person now. kinda like whatsnowboarding is to skiing. bouldering is very fun, but somehow not the same as climbing. maybe it's because i suck.
thanks for all the very good suggestions. i may try the chest harness idea too.
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janjaf
Jun 18, 2005, 10:30 AM
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If the anchor is fixed, start by clipping the anchors with quickdraws, and run your rope through them -. this solution will slide the rope, and you shouldn't do that direct of bolted achors.
Tie into one end, put a grigri on the other.
clip the grigri to your harness.
Climb away, dragging rope through your grigri as you go.
Every 2 m tie a backup knot. For a grigri, you don't have to clip it.
Pro:
Simple, pretty failproof if you know how to use a grigri, and effective. Backup knots prevent up-side-down sliding on the grigri.
con: You need to pull the rope throgh the grigri. Unlike using an ascender, which should slide along.
requires grigri familiarity
Using a chest harness will slide the ascender even better. But, if you aren't climbing slab only, you need a setup, which allows you to shift your weight to your (normal? Sit? Butt?) harness. Hanging free from a chest harness in an ascender is a dicey position. You don't want to hang for very long time in a chest harness - you may suffocate.
In a gym (yeah, rope soloing in a gym, pathetic, i know) I've used the chest harness, but on rock, i want something clusterfuck-proof, that'll get med down fast. The grigri solution is the simplest i've heard of.
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beetleman
Jun 18, 2005, 2:33 PM
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I use an Ushba basic ascender. It has no teeth to damage the rope, and moves up the rope with almost no resistance, the weight of the rope is enough. Leaving you free to tie back up knots below you. It costs about $100.
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sentinel
Jun 20, 2005, 7:22 PM
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SO let me see if I can nail your concern correctly. You're rope soloing on a device that is intended to take full body weight (+ 1000 more lbs), and you still want to run a back up knot. WTF. Stay on the ground and don't leave unless you have a partner. What your experiencing is fear of gear failure and then eventually death. What are you doing rope soloing if that fear of death is your belay partner. I use the YATES Rocker (ascending device), and the Petzel Mini trax to haul pigs and TR solo. Never once have i ever had a problem with either device that I need to run a back up knot (and that's including rope epics with shitty faded ropes). Failure on these devices are far and very few between (and if anyone has had this problem then they are using the ascending device wrongly, or they're just spraying). Back up knots are good if you don't have a 3rd device while jugging traversing pitches. But if you're TR on a fixed line... Just CLIMB.
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
Jun 20, 2005, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: SO let me see if I can nail your concern correctly. You're rope soloing on a device that is intended to take full body weight (+ 1000 more lbs), and you still want to run a back up knot. WTF. Stay on the ground and don't leave unless you have a partner. What your experiencing is fear of gear failure and then eventually death. What are you doing rope soloing if that fear of death is your belay partner. I use the YATES Rocker (ascending device), and the Petzel Mini trax to haul pigs and TR solo. Never once have i ever had a problem with either device that I need to run a back up knot (and that's including rope epics with s--- faded ropes). Failure on these devices are far and very few between (and if anyone has had this problem then they are using the ascending device wrongly, or they're just spraying). Back up knots are good if you don't have a 3rd device while jugging traversing pitches. But if you're TR on a fixed line... Just CLIMB.
An ascender becoming detached from a rope is not unheard of. If you want to TR solo without a back-up, go right ahead. Dissing someone for not wanting to do that is ridiculous. And if you are jugging a rope without tieing in short, your'e just plain stoopid. Just because you've never had a problem, don't mean it won't happen eventually.
So just go right ahead, genius. And you're the one spraying.
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sentinel
Jun 20, 2005, 7:48 PM
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Oh yea tough guy lets hear it! You're a tough guy aren't ya. You told me. Glad we have the "safe & scared outta my wits police" around here.
So like i said in my thread response, I'd love to hear about your ascender device coming off the line.... Or is this something that was told to you around your GYM fire. Better yet gear testing god. Why don't you tell us all how a petzel min traxion (fully enclosed device) or a Yates Rocker is going to come off the line....
So if you can't speak from experience then shut your shit hole.
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verticallaw
Jun 20, 2005, 8:52 PM
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Well boys..... lets all calm down eh..., I have also done quite a bit of rope solo on a fixed line and the pro's and cons of a back up are quite apperant (assuming that you care for your life). The prob I think that the OP is talking about is that when using a grigri or other such device for this purpose there is NO deadhand on the rope in case of gear failure.... Sentinal, would you allow me to belay you on lead without keeping my dead hand on the rope? I think not. But also with that in mind you can take the back up gig a bit too far especially when your learning how to rope solo and your on your own. My method has not included much backup ONCE i have become comfortable with the system. When I tested out the CINCH for this purpose I used many many backups while I purposly took falls ranging from 2ft to 10ft. This is not fear, it is testing the gear and learning systems safely. Now that I am more comfortable with this system I too rarely back it up, I just climb, if I do back up I will clip directly into the 2nd half of the rope (about 1/2 way up) and go, this way if there is ultimate gear failure in my device or it jams open I will stop BEFORE the ground. Getting accustomed to that fear that solo brings is a part of the game.... To the OP rock on man, back it up 6 ways from sunday if thats what you need to get comfortable with the gear, and to Sentinal.... if you want to climb without back up go ahead... why use a rope in the first place? And if you want a hands free belay with a gri gri give me a call.... that crux move does feel harder when you look down and your belayer has no hands on the rope while swiggin tequila and hittin on climbing babes. I understand your point and am not commenting on your statments.... but at the same time not everyone has logged enough time on the solo gig to be comfortable without a backup.... to each there own.
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
Jun 20, 2005, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: Oh yea tough guy lets hear it! You're a tough guy aren't ya. You told me. Glad we have the "safe & scared outta my wits police" around here. So like i said in my thread response, I'd love to hear about your ascender device coming off the line.... Or is this something that was told to you around your GYM fire. Better yet gear testing god. Why don't you tell us all how a petzel min traxion (fully enclosed device) or a Yates Rocker is going to come off the line.... So if you can't speak from experience then shut your s--- hole.
I never said I had it happen. But if it did, I would still be here because I backed it up. Last time I was in a gym was sometime in the early 90's, once or twice.
Do what you want, It's your (dumb)a*s, but when you ridicule someone for wanting to back up an ascender, maybe the s***t hole that needs to be shut is yours.
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savageclimber
Jun 20, 2005, 9:15 PM
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The only truly reliable backup is a seperate rope strand. An older ascender
that the micro ascender is related to was known to cut ropes when shock
loaded. This would could happen when your ascender fails to auto feed
and you have climbed a few feet above that point. This could easily be
10 feet or more fall onto the ascender. Rock Exoctica greatly improved
the cam interface to mostly prevent the rope cutting problem. I have solo top roped many easy routes using petzl ascenders and gri-gris. Its really
imporant to have as little slack in between the ascender and rope as possible. If your route wanders beyond what a high fixed rope can handle then only soloist or silent partner would be safe. Neither of those will auto
feed.
Solo top roping if done corectly will be safer than rope solo leading.
I have mostly used two strands of a one rope tied off with a figure eight.
If have had misadventures. one time I almost cut my rope by penduluming
around from an abrasive edge . I felt something was wrong and rapped down. Use a second rope when ever possible.
Reid
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sentinel
Jun 20, 2005, 9:22 PM
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Here's the deal friend. I work for SAR team in BC and I see enough bullshit from people who's jock is bigger then the lobe that contains there common sense. So with that said, I have enough experience to tell when someone isn't 150% sure that they should be doing what they're considering doing. This guy sound's like he is not sure not confident on SOLOing on a TR. More importantly it sounds like he has not pushed gear to a limit that he feels SAFE. The movement of any TR ascending device over the rope is so incremental and if he has it attached correctly it should never ever come off (Once again tell us your stories about how a self enclosed device can all of a sudden come off a line). Now if he is TR SOLOing on a shitty tattered rope with CS's then I can see how a device some how coming off the line (or de skin the sheath). But just so I don't come across as a lunatic I have experienced a JUMAR coming off the line on a traverse, I was backed up with my Gri Gri and a knot. So I'm not telling him to go solo without a back up; I'm saying; that in my experience his question seems to play in the world of fear and uncertainty. When you deal with those elements on route, its time to give up the lead, back off or just not do it. Cause if not I have to don my BIO gear to clean up whats left of him.
Kind of a good thing cause I get paid hazzardous duty pay.
Incidently, you're just as scared. Its why you defend this thread.
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