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dyomad
Jun 17, 2005, 3:19 AM
Post #26 of 32
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As to super skinny twins like a 7.5 or so, I personally would not be excited about following on one of those, but the idea of twins is that if one rope is cut by rock, crampon point, ice tools or whatever, there is a second rope to absorb the fall. Twins are tested as a pair though so until some rope company or ridiculously wealthy RC.commer gets curious and starts testing twin rope falls with one rope then we may never know. I guess my opinion would be that if one of my partners showed up at a multi pitch climb with skinny twins for three of us I would want to be the one leading anything hard and let the others worry about TRing on dental floss. Keep in mind as well that ropes of that diameter are really intended for ice routes with little to nothing in the way of sharp edges. We can push the limits of our gear to some extent and that is a decision that each of us must make for ourselves. So I guess my final answer would be "Well I guess it depends..."
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cfnubbler
Jun 17, 2005, 12:39 PM
Post #27 of 32
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In reply to: Keep in mind as well that ropes of that diameter are really intended for ice routes with little to nothing in the way of sharp edges.
No, that's incorrect.
While they are certainly a good choice for ice (others will argue this point based on impact force- I disagree, but that's been beaten to death in other threads), they are actually specifically intended for high-abuse climbing and / or routes where the risk of cutting is an issue. Hard alpine rock and Euro multipitch limestone are good examples. Used in pairs, they generally test as the least likely to be cut. Used single strand is a different proposition, of course.
They are especically useful in the above environments on routes that require full length raps to descend.
-Nubbler
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renohandjams
Jun 27, 2005, 5:26 PM
Post #28 of 32
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Do you think the first climber could just belay the other two climbers off an atc? As long as the other two climbers were spaced apart and climbing at relatively the same speed? We are doing a three pitch, 3 person Trad climb on Saturday at Donner and we don't want it to take 3 hours.
Thanks
-Kenny
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vegastradguy
Jun 27, 2005, 5:49 PM
Post #29 of 32
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In reply to: Do you think the first climber could just belay the other two climbers off an atc?
no. an atc does not have the autolocking capability of the reverso or B-52- making it unsafe to belay two seconds at the same time.
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ddriver
Jun 27, 2005, 10:52 PM
Post #30 of 32
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In reply to: In reply to: Do you think the first climber could just belay the other two climbers off an atc? no. an atc does not have the autolocking capability of the reverso or B-52- making it unsafe to belay two seconds at the same time.
I do this routinely using a spring-loaded sticht plate, and see no reason an atc won't work fine. If you expect to move fast with a team of 3 you would do well to learn this technique when using a re-directed belay. I typically use my index finger to separate the two strands so I can feel each person move individually and adjust the rope accordingly. I was given a reverso and tried it while belaying two seconds. My experience was that it was nearly impossible to provide slack to only one climber and as a result I have not used it again for this purpose.
As far as the spacing between the 2nd and 3rd, you're right on in that the belayer will have a much easier time if the two move at relatively the same speed, and the rope stacking will be more orderly as well. Use enough spacing (~10-20') to keep the 3rd safe from the 2nd's fall.
I also routinely climb with parties of 3 using double 9-mils. While they're not rated for a single UIAA leader fall, a fall on toprope doesn't come close to that type loading.
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vegastradguy
Jun 27, 2005, 11:20 PM
Post #31 of 32
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Do you think the first climber could just belay the other two climbers off an atc? no. an atc does not have the autolocking capability of the reverso or B-52- making it unsafe to belay two seconds at the same time. I do this routinely using a spring-loaded sticht plate, and see no reason an atc won't work fine.
well, there is always the argument that its possible and some folks feel comfortable doing so. however, the atc was not made or intended for this purpose, and i, for one, could not in good conscience recommend this technique to a beginning trad leader.
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ddriver
Jun 28, 2005, 3:53 PM
Post #32 of 32
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In reply to: I was just curious on the most efficient way to multi-pitch with three people... I was thinking have the first climb to the first anchor then bring up the second belaying from above and as the second goes up have him drag up another rope then when he gets to the first anchor have the leader go up to the second anchor and clip in then the second would bring up the third on the other rope... so on and so forth... is that the most effieient way????
Kindredhawk, I hope you're still following this thread. I went back and read through the whole thread and alot of the advice given is in my opinion based on speculation. Your question is about efficiency with a team of 3. For most climbing that will have nothing to do with ascending fixed ropes, i.e. I'm assuming we're talking about free climbing. The method you propose is what most people start out doing because its conceptually simple to do so and the skills involved are already mastered. It is not, however, the most efficient way.
Just to give you an idea of my experience with teams of 3 or more, I'll give you some examples of routes I've climbed using free simulclimbing:
Lotus Flower Tower
Notch Pk North Face
Capitan Mtns Oso Madre
Third Sella Tower Vinatzer
Yamnuska Forbidden Corner
El Cap Free Blast
Sass Pordoi Piaz Arete
Wolf's Head E Ridge
Grand Teton Direct Exum
Caveat Emptor
Icicle Creek Outer Space
Bastille XM/Outer Space
Washington Column Prow
Pywiak Dome Dike Rt
Petit Grepon
Spearhead
Superslab
Lone Pk Lowe Rt
Ancient Arts
North Sixshooter Lightning Bolts
Castleton North Chimney
Dream of Wild Turkeys
El Cap Muir Wall
Zion Fang Wall
and many many others.
Most of these routes aren't that crowded, but a lot of shorter routes I've done this way have been. On the Direct Exum our team of 3 passed at least 3 other teams on the lower technical pitches. On the Third Sella we were passed by a 2-person guided team and we in turn passed a 2-person team. Our teams of 3 have generally moved comparable to other teams of 2, and on easier routes we often pass inexperienced teams.
The key to this is that the seconds must climb simultaneously. Anything else is wasting time. That should appear self-evident. Any belay device designed to accomodate 2 ropes will work for this purpose. There is no requirement that it be autolocking. A sticht plate, atc, tuber, etc. is designed specifically to take two ropes for both rapelling and belaying. There is no difference in the principals involved with belaying 2 people on 2 ropes than there is with belaying 1 person on 1 rope or 1 person on 2 ropes. Its the same except that the 2 ropes will move individually (new skill). If one person falls, you lock their fall. If they're injured, use your prusiks to fix their line so you can freely belay the other second, etc. This is a standard methodology for climbing with teams of 3. This has been done long before autolockers were even available, and you may at some point belay simulclimbers using a hip belay or even a boot-axe belay.
I witnessed a guided team of about 6 use this method in the Dolomites to climb a 10-pitch route as fast as our teams of 2 could follow them. They had climbed together a number of times and they were impressively efficient. There was one guide (an Austrian woman) and a family of various ages, mom, dad, and kids. They smoked the route, admittedly no harder than say 5.6, but still continuously steep.
Now, there are two complications that simul-climbing introduces to your rope management:
1. As the leader stacks the two ropes at the belay at the end of the lead, the seconds' ends will both end up on top. In order for the rope to run smoothly on the next lead you preferably want to lead off with these two ends. This essentially requires that the next leader tie into the other seconds' rope. We do this in the following sequence: 1) the belayer unties from one of his two ropes, both of which are in the belay, 2) the non-leading second ties into this free end and hence the belay, 3) the non-leading second unties from his original rope, and 4) the new leader ties into the now-free lead line. This may seem complicated but it can be done concurrently with re-racking gear and requires little extra time once understood and practiced. You can also daisy into the belay as a backup to this process if you're at a hanging belay or want added security. You have 3 pairs of eyes to check knots, so there's no reason to screw this up. The alternative to re-tieing would be for the original leader to untie one of his ropes and give it to the next leader but this results in belay havoc, as the two lines are now feeding from opposite ends of the stack and this end would have to be extracted from the belay.
2. The other complication from this method is how the leader builds and ties into the belay. This is because you will have 2 people in the belay as the leader climbs. If you are accustommed to climbing with double ropes as a team of 2, you may build belays that are spread out and tie one rope here and the other rope there and everything is okay because you are the focal point and control the interaction. No problem. But, tie 2 people into such a belay and suddenly you have 2 separate belays each of which may be poor on their own. Don't do this. You need to build your belays with the idea in mind that you will be tieing both ropes into the belay and that each person should be into the complete belay. You also need to keep in mind that either second needs to be able escape the belay one at a time, in other words don't build a system where one person is tied into another or blocks another from leaving. Building and managing belays with teams of 3 or more requires time to learn. You're bound to do things like cross ropes or clip into the wrong point, but you'll learn. Try to keep your ropes stacked cleanly on top, and always tie in under any ropes or slings.
I hope this explanation helps you. Just use a little common sense and you should be fine. I'd recommend you practice these techniques on less-crowded routes where you can take enough time to be proficient. Good luck and one day you'll be looking at other teams doing the inch-worm and you'll know better.
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