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dirtineye
Jul 28, 2005, 10:53 AM
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What are the differences, if any?
I started out primarily as a boulderer, with the understanding that I was trainign for trad climbing. Although my first lead ever was a sport climb, I am much more drawn to trad and bouldering, so I have a bias.
While I can appreciate and enjoy a high quaility sport route, a high quality or even mediocre trad route demands and returns more mentally.
I'm not saying that sport climbing is either more or less challenging, rather that the challenges are different in sport, and that I get more satisfaction from trad climbing. I love to boulder, I really enjoy my bouldering pals and the social aspects that go with bouldering, as well as the immediacy of boudlering. But, even though I am proud of some of my bouldering accomplishments, I am prouder still of my trad climbs, even though the hardest movements I have ever made have been on boulder problems.
After giving all this back ground, I feel a little sheepish, because I wanted to discuss the differences in the mental aspects of bouldering, trad, and sport, but I am not sure I can articulate them, even though I personally am sure that they exist.
I'll try to set the table for discussion with this thought:
Mental intensity and mental uncertainty are at a higher level in trad climbing than in sport or bouldering, excluding highballs and free solos.
If anyone else can come up with similarities or differences, I'd like to talk about em.
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wonderwoman
Jul 29, 2005, 12:39 AM
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Here is what goes through my head for each:
Sport - I can always expect the next bolt to be there when I need it.
Bouldering - Hey, can you guys quiet down a little and stop telling me to stick it? (I'm getting better at focusing and more appreciative of the enthusiasm, though)
Trad - I'm leaving my comfort zone now. Is there a fixed anchor up there? Do you think there are rap rings? Will I have to hang on the belay? What if I get lost? etc, etc, etc
For me trad is full of mystery and uncertainty. I tend to like to know what to expect, which I admit is not very adventurous. I'm working on developing my skills so that I can be confident and competent in the face of the unexpected.
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tattooed_climber
Jul 29, 2005, 5:09 AM
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hummm.....
the way i sometimes think of it, is in terms of protection
BOULDERING: Buddy is spotting with the crash pad, no worries as i do some funky shit
SPORT: The FAer did a nice job placing these bolts, no worries
TRAD: i better do i nice job chockin this stuff, caution as i don't want failments
ICE: This shit is just for show.....
but even this mentality (being a generalized one) cannot be accurate...there's too many styles, schools of thought and personal prefence that goes into how each of us climb in our styles
I have a buddy who developes raging hard-ons when he gets narley pcik placements, everyone also behaves differently in their elements
the only thing i can say about 'mental aspects' and RWW talks about this (etc. THE 'STOP' LESSON) and i had a revilation therein after; they are habbits (which to me is our sub-conscience behavior, which is in a way a mental aspect)..that those habbits of everyday life and hauled up with us on every climb...those habbits....bad or good...come with us....
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maculated
Jul 29, 2005, 5:34 AM
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In reply to: TRAD: i better do i nice job chockin this stuff, caution as i don't want failments
Failments is a word? That's awesome. I'm using it.
I'm weird - if I am only four feet off the ground bouldering, I am scared.
1500 feet off? No prob.
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jt512
Jul 30, 2005, 12:05 AM
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In reply to: Sport - I can always expect the next bolt to be there when I need it.
What do you mean by "need" in this context.
-Jay
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arnoilgner
Jul 30, 2005, 1:04 AM
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Each discipline has its own unique unknowns. But, each one allows us to come to that point where we doubt whether or not we can or should continue. So the mental aspects are very much the same only the medium is different. What is important is how you deal with that doubt when it arises.
Some folks are more comfortable on ice because they've done a lot of it. Others are more comfortable on trad, etc. How you deal with that doubt is what mental training is all about. So the medium is different but the mental lessons are very much alike.
arno
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disturbingthepeace
Jul 30, 2005, 2:27 AM
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In reply to: While I can appreciate and enjoy a high quaility sport route, a high quality or even mediocre trad route demands and returns more mentally. Mental intensity and mental uncertainty are at a higher level in trad climbing than in sport or bouldering, excluding highballs and free solos. If anyone else can come up with similarities or differences, I'd like to talk about em.
I'm just the opposite, I get a lot more out of a hard sport route where I do not have to be as concerned about the protection and can focus more on the climbing, and climbing at my limit.
Mental uncertanty is certainly at a higher level when trad or ice climbing, but I feel that sport, bouldering, and trad all require the same mental intensity. If you are climbing at your true limit then you are going to have to be incredibly focused and eliminate all mental distractions.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 1, 2005, 4:46 PM
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Although I love hard sport routes, I don't feel like they require much mentally from me. I love the adventure and uncertainty of trad. Figuring things out and relying on my own knowlege is much more appealing to me. Although I still rely heavily on guidebooks, I would love to eventually just walk up to a rock and say "Yeah, I think that will go."
Josh
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arnoilgner
Aug 1, 2005, 9:41 PM
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Hi Josh (blueeyedclimber)
I've noticed on hard sport climbing that I'm a little afraid about falling but also afraid of exerting the effort forward into the climbing process. To put so much physical effort into a climb is uncomfortable and we can be unwilling to do that. Whereas on trad, especially runout trad, we have more of a balance--some physical exertion and mental risk assessing.
arno
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schnoz
Aug 1, 2005, 9:57 PM
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In reply to: I'm weird - if I am only four feet off the ground bouldering, I am scared. 1500 feet off? No prob.
I have to agree with maculated on this one. For me, it's the fear of ground fall. Falling doesn't bother me (as much) as it used to once I'm a bit off the deck.
Bouldering: If I fall here, will I twist my ankle? My wrist if I fall arm first? Where's the security of my rope and harness!? I should be top roping this 20 foot boulder.
Sport: Where's my next bolt? There it is. Excellent. (rinse, dry repeat once I reach said bolt until I'm out of bolts and just have an anchor left). If I'm concerned about ground fall, I have a clip stick for the first bolt.
Trad: Am I off route? Should I put in another piece now? If I don't, will I be able to a up a bit higher? Damn, the guide book says "belay at the small pine tree". This guide book is 15 years old, is that tree even 15 years old? Maybe it's the next tree. No, wait, that's a cedar. Did the guy writing the book even know how to tell the difference (it's happened! One Pine at Bon Echo was named after the "pine" tree at the top, it's actually a cedar). Damn this is fun!
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wonderwoman
Aug 2, 2005, 3:12 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sport - I can always expect the next bolt to be there when I need it. What do you mean by "need" in this context. -Jay
What I mean is that I can usually expect the hard moves to be protected with a bolt. The sport climbs around here are usually well protected and not too run out. I don't mean 'need' as in I would only clip bolts when I need to. Is that what you're asking?
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jt512
Aug 2, 2005, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Sport - I can always expect the next bolt to be there when I need it. What do you mean by "need" in this context. -Jay What I mean is that I can usually expect the hard moves to be protected with a bolt. The sport climbs around here are usually well protected and not too run out. I don't mean 'need' as in I would only clip bolts when I need to. Is that what you're asking?
No. I guess what I was asking was whether you need them because the fall is really dangerous or because you "need" them to overcome phantom fear. What if there was no bolt at the hard move?
-Jay
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annak
Aug 2, 2005, 4:29 AM
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In reply to: Here is what goes through my head for each: Sport - I can always expect the next bolt to be there when I need it. Bouldering - Hey, can you guys quiet down a little and stop telling me to stick it? (I'm getting better at focusing and more appreciative of the enthusiasm, though) Trad - I'm leaving my comfort zone now. Is there a fixed anchor up there? Do you think there are rap rings? Will I have to hang on the belay? What if I get lost? etc, etc, etc For me trad is full of mystery and uncertainty. I tend to like to know what to expect, which I admit is not very adventurous. I'm working on developing my skills so that I can be confident and competent in the face of the unexpected.
You can look at it differently: on a good crack climb, you can arrange pro whenever you feel like that! For me, it always take some time to change between sport and trad. This said, I still lead harder grades on sport.
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kimmyt
Aug 2, 2005, 2:20 PM
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Interesting topic, and one that I've thought on quite a bit. Since they recently made this forum public, I'll share the thoughts I've had on what my differences are in sport and trad.
First, some background. I don't climb hard. My limit is maybe a 5.8/5.9 clean. That means that there are few sport climbs I can lead, and those that are there are very close to my limit.
I've recently begun leading trad, easy stuff, but challenging enough to keep me from feeling too at ease.
I lead sport long before I started leading trad, almost a year or more ago. From the very beginning, it scared me. I mean, terrified. Having your next bolt being predetermined by the person who bolted that route. As a shorter person with admittedly subpar technique, I couldn't trust that the person who had bolted whatever route I was on had bolted the thing well. Maybe the bolt would be too far for me to reach from a decent stance, maybe....the thoughts ran through my head. Many times these thoughts might turn out to come true, but who knows if it was because I had already started thinking them before I attempted to clip.
I did sport for awhile, but my leading lagged off. I never really felt like leading. I always felt scared on lead, and even the thought of racking up sent my heartrate skyrocketing. Eventually I was just following my leader, once in a great while throwing myself on a climb that I knew I could complete but that nonetheless still scared the crap out of me. The last time I was at a place with moderate sport climbs, I did a 5.6. The same route I had done as my first sport lead more than a year ago. I was scared. Frightened. I got through it, but the shaky legs, the feeling of a lack of control....I didn't like it. And this route, it was bolted up like clockwork. But still I was frightened.
On the other hand, trad. Yes, easy trad. But trad only a few grades below my limit, and having just started leading a few months ago, I'm comfortable on it, and with my gear. I love trad. When I'm leading trad, I feel at ONE with my body, I'm not fighting against it. I am in control of where I put my gear (given that it's a route with good protection). I choose the stances. There's no, "The bolt is...just out of my reach!". I can lead above my gear much more comfortably than in sport, and farther above my gear as well. I even feel like I trust my gear more than I do a bolt!
I don't know why, but when I'm leading trad as opposed to sport, I'm climbing. Sport, I often feel like I'm flailing. But trad.... most of the times it's like magic, even when I get to a part that I'm sketched, I'm still flowing up that rock, completely in rhythm with my physical body and my mind.
Bouldering, we won't even go into. :)
K.
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wonderwoman
Aug 2, 2005, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: No. I guess what I was asking was whether you need them because the fall is really dangerous or because you "need" them to overcome phantom fear. What if there was no bolt at the hard move? -Jay
Thanks for the clarification, Jay. That makes more sense to me now.
Yes, you are right that I feel like I need the bolts to overcome the 'phantom fear'. I usually find myself down climbing and then hanging at the last bolt and looking at the climb several times before I can get up the courage to do a hard unprotected move. I am very scared of falling, which is just one of the things that I am working on.
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degaine
Aug 2, 2005, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: Each discipline has its own unique unknowns. But, each one allows us to come to that point where we doubt whether or not we can or should continue. So the mental aspects are very much the same only the medium is different....
I agree, but the risks are not always the same, which still has a significant effect on the mental aspect of the climb for me. Rereading an article in the Feb 2001 edition of Climbing on Eldo Canyon made me think of this thread - the severely run out 5.11s there certainly seem much more mentally difficult than a well protected 5.11 elsewhere (trad or sport). The risks are not the same and so I feel former requires more mental fortitude than the latter.
My own experience with Tuolumne run outs vs. well protected splitter cracks/sport routes has brought to the same conclusion - I need more mental strength to climb an R/X in Tuolumne then to climb, a higher grade climb where I can place gear at will.
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unabonger
Aug 19, 2005, 3:57 AM
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In reply to: Mental intensity and mental uncertainty are at a higher level in trad climbing than in sport or bouldering.
I understand what you're getting at. My question is: so now what? Is it even productive to make such a generalization when each route presents such unique challenges?
I've experienced high levels of intensity and uncertainty on plenty of sport routes. Quantifying the experience relative to another just doesn't seem very relavent or correct to me. And frankly I guess I'm wondering if this topic is a vieled value judgement against sport climbing. You don't find the same intensity doing sport, and I respect that. Each of us demonstrate our values when we climb. I get uncomfortable with statements like you make above, because I wonder if you leave room for the validity of my own experience, which is different. I give you the benefit of the doubt, though :)
In a coffee shop talking jag sort of way there's something interesting here I suppose: Obviously comparing a dangerous 5.11 Jules Verne to a sport 11 like Eighty Feet of Meat is silly. It's probably more interesting to compare Jules Verne to maybe...Sprayathon, 13c.
I'd say even though each presents a different challenge, to succeed you need similarly intense preparation, effort, will, fortitude, and even fear control (Spray has a nice big wing going to the anchor on non-easy move) to climb a 5.11 like Jules Verne and 5.13c.
What do you think?
UB
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jelliott
Aug 19, 2005, 5:33 AM
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IMHO I think that all three styles have their challenges. I personally enjoy trad and hard (for me) trad. I think that trad makes me think more, about places and route finding. I am actually more comfortable on trad do to the fact I suck at crimps and that I focus more due to the fact I have to pay more attention to all the different details. Sport and Bouldering are valid and there exists hard highball or run outs (slab) but in general (that is a dangerous term) I personally feel that I am more focused and climb better on trad lead. Nothing like the sharp end of the rope. I also like the fact I can decide whether I want place every 3 feet or every 50 feet. I think it is up to each person to decide which one is style that suits you. I like the thinking portion of trad and the movement but other want just movement or difficulty.
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crshbrn84
Aug 19, 2005, 5:43 AM
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bouldering- i have fun with it, i enjoy how immediate the satisfaction can be of just climbing and not having to worry about gear.
sport- its fun, been on 20ft run out sport and still felt safe. Not quite sure how i feel on some of the ethics of bolt placements
trad- been 20 feet above a tcu, did not feel safe. But i enjoyed that more than any other sport climb i have done. I like trad because i like the clean lines and i like playing with gear. One of my friends said "the more you jingle the cooler you are" my jingley responce "damn im cool"
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 19, 2005, 6:23 AM
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Boulder to practice focus in your body.
Trad to practice focus in a natural environment.
Sport to practice being focused (and efficient) while your mad pumped.
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phugganut
Aug 19, 2005, 7:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Sport - I can always expect the next bolt to be there when I need it. What do you mean by "need" in this context. -Jay What I mean is that I can usually expect the hard moves to be protected with a bolt. The sport climbs around here are usually well protected and not too run out. I don't mean 'need' as in I would only clip bolts when I need to. Is that what you're asking? No. I guess what I was asking was whether you need them because the fall is really dangerous or because you "need" them to overcome phantom fear. What if there was no bolt at the hard move? -Jay
On a sport climb? :roll: :twisted:
In reply to: In reply to: I'm weird - if I am only four feet off the ground bouldering, I am scared. 1500 feet off? No prob. I have to agree with maculated on this one...
Yeah, me three. I prefer MP trad, and am often comfortable with running it out. Some of my friends feel I run it out too much, but when you're in a groove you sometimes don't want to stop. However, put me on a highball boulder problem and I can get freakin petrified! Then I have trouble committing to the moves and finally just wuss out. Sometimes on MP trad I even enjoy those butterflies in the stomach that can come with 40 or 50 feet of runout, but on the top few moves of a 20' boulder problem I am just plain scared!
I almost never get scared on a sport climb. I feel that of the three types the OP listed, I am least focused on sport climbs. Maybe that's because it is generally less committing, which lets me become a bit mentally lazy.
Also, for me, MP trad is fun because you can get off route or make your own way instead of following someone elses bolt line. Bouldering is sometimes like sport in that aspect, as certain hold will be off or a certain technique (a sit start for example) is mandatory. With MP trad you can just go where and how you want.
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dirtineye
Aug 19, 2005, 12:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Mental intensity and mental uncertainty are at a higher level in trad climbing than in sport or bouldering. I understand what you're getting at. My question is: so now what? Is it even productive to make such a generalization when each route presents such unique challenges?
With respect, I'm just pointing out a personal qualitative difference, not laying down law. Some peopel have said it's all the same for them, others find that they feel the opposite of what I feel. Generalizations are what they are. Of course if you take em as law, then you miss the point of a generalization.
In reply to: I've experienced high levels of intensity and uncertainty on plenty of sport routes. Quantifying the experience relative to another just doesn't seem very relavent or correct to me. And frankly I guess I'm wondering if this topic is a vieled value judgement against sport climbing. You don't find the same intensity doing sport, and I respect that. Each of us demonstrate our values when we climb. I get uncomfortable with statements like you make above, because I wonder if you leave room for the validity of my own experience, which is different. I give you the benefit of the doubt, though :)
To truly make a quantification, I'd have to go into specifically how much they vary. I'm keeping it qualitative because it's mainly a feel for the different brands of climbing. To me, quantitative would be saying something like, "I had 70% more mental strain on that trad climb than on this sport climb", which is kind of ridiculous.
HAHA, Veiled? I just plain don't like sport climbing, how's that? I don't care if you like it or not, Sport a fine way to climb and I'll still respect you in the morning. I've even done some great sport climbs that were really fun. My point is that even though a sport climb can be very demanding, you always have the bolt. You are not going to die on a sport climb. In trad, especially the adventure climbing I like, when you are over crap gear not knowing what the next move will be like, but knowing for sure a ground fall is a good possiblility, that is a big difference.
In reply to: In a coffee shop talking jag sort of way there's something interesting here I suppose: Obviously comparing a dangerous 5.11 Jules Verne to a sport 11 like Eighty Feet of Meat is silly. It's probably more interesting to compare Jules Verne to maybe...Sprayathon, 13c. I'd say even though each presents a different challenge, to succeed you need similarly intense preparation, effort, will, fortitude, and even fear control (Spray has a nice big wing going to the anchor on non-easy move) to climb a 5.11 like Jules Verne and 5.13c. What do you think? UB
I don't think trad and sport compare very well because they are too different. And I've been on enough 5.12 trad to know I'll never climb 5.13 of any kind, (except MAYBE bouldering) and I'll struggle like hell to get up the 12, haha!
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gat
Aug 19, 2005, 1:18 PM
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In reply to: Although I still rely heavily on guidebooks, I would love to eventually just walk up to a rock and say "Yeah, I think that will go." Josh
Do it! The climbs I remember most are the one's that I knew absolutely nothing about. Seneca is great for this type of activity. You don't have to be "good" (I'm certainly not) to do this, just capable of recognizing unecessarily dangerous situations.
Count me as the fourth who can't seem to commit when bouldering. It's not as enjoyable to me as other forms of climbing, that probably explains why I am so unwilling to risk injury while doing it. Of course, I am also weak and not talented - that doesn't help :lol:
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dirtineye
Aug 19, 2005, 1:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Although I still rely heavily on guidebooks, I would love to eventually just walk up to a rock and say "Yeah, I think that will go." Josh Do it! The climbs I remember most are the one's that I knew absolutely nothing about. Seneca is great for this type of activity. You don't have to be "good" (I'm certainly not) to do this, just capable of recognizing unecessarily dangerous situations. Count me as the fourth who can't seem to commit when bouldering. It's not as enjoyable to me as other forms of climbing, that probably explains why I am so unwilling to risk injury while doing it. Of course, I am also weak and not talented - that doesn't help :lol:
Committing while bouldering or roped climbing is a funny thing. I have had no serious issues committing while free soloing, lots of issues while on lead, and both situations while bouldering/highballing. I've taken repeated twelve foot falls to the ground with no pad, but been goofy about a 6 footer on lead before. Go figure.
BTW, you don't have to be good or talented or strong to enjoy climbing. You can enjoy climbing just because it's fun. Climb the stuff you like, that you want to climb.
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lhwang
Aug 19, 2005, 2:27 PM
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Bouldering: Ha... glad to see I'm not the only one who gets kind of freaked out when I'm 20 feet above the ground on a boulder problem and the only thing between me and the ground is a mashed out pad that looks like a speck from that height. I will definitely boulder because it's great for developing strength and other things but I limit it to training at the gym, or else cold days outside where I need something low commitment.
Sport: Well-protected routes with clean falls are awesome. I like how I can really push my climbing limits without worrying about my gear pulling. That being said, I almost never fall deliberately anymore. I find the falls are sometimes safer when I don't expect them at all and only have time to think "Head up, land like a cat!" and then it's all over.
Trad: I go by the leader must not fall motto. The routes I lead on gear are usually at least 2 grades lower than what I'll lead on sport. This is my favourite style of climbing though.
I think, to echo the words of some of the other posters, to claim that one style of climbing demands more mentally than the others is flawed. It seems to claim that some styles are more difficult than others, but I think it's really a matter of getting out what you put in mentally... I climb for those moments where I'm completely focused on my movement and the rock and I find that can happen whether bouldering, sport climbing or on trad (or ice!).
I guess the one thing I'll say is that when I'm soloing an ice pitch or climbing on trad or doing a high-ball boulder problem or climbing a sport route with potentially bad falls, I find I don't even think about or get freaked out about falling because it's just not an option. That frees up my mind to focus on climbing.
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