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chrisshaeffer
Jul 20, 2002, 5:30 AM
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OK, I'm kinda slow. I figured out just recently one reason that ATC's have 2 rope slots- rappelling! (I told you I was slow) So I decided to play with it out on the rock today.
We climbed first (no injuries, good caution, didn't do anything too stupid for our first time out of the gym) then I decided to see if I could get the ATC to work for rappelling. Played around with it down at the base of the climb to see how it worked and feeling quite pleased with myself for figuring it out. (easy to do when you're so slow)
Then I looked up and saw...all...that...rope I could rappel down... so I did.
Well, I trust my gear now, and my sensabilities, though it was a little racey going over the edge of that cliff clutching my rope...
What interested me on my nice ride down is that I could easily stop and check out the parts of the climb I couldn't do on the way up and make plans for next time. Cheating, maybe, but as a newbie I found it an invaluable perspective. Is that common practice at all? Am I breaking some arcane climber's ettiquette?
All in all, I've had an awesome evening!
-Chris
[ This Message was edited by: chrisshaeffer on 2002-07-19 22:31 ]
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paintinhaler
Jul 20, 2002, 6:08 AM
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didnt sound like you knew what you were doing.
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tommyf
Jul 20, 2002, 6:37 AM
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Dude you need to be climbing with some body that isn’t slow and does not have to play around with stuff to figure out how it works.
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chrisshaeffer
Jul 20, 2002, 6:46 AM
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I didn't.
I'm a beginner. Everything is new (at least) once and that was the first time I've done that.
The bolts were safe, the rope is new, I did several little 10-foot rappels down the flared slope at the base of the cliff to see how it worked and what the dangers were (i.e. letting GO of the rope on the way down, holding on too tight and getting a hot hand) and figured the 50 rap from the top wouldn't be too much different. (Shrug)
There's only one way to learn. If I trust my friend's life to my rope handling skills and my own life to the gear...
I thought I was being safe enough. At the beginner level it isn't like using the gear is rocket science.
I just asked the question to see if rapp'ing down to look at the rock you couldn't get to is common practice at all. I'm new enough to not know if that's concidered bad or what-not. (Also new enough not to care much- just curious.)
-Chris
[ This Message was edited by: chrisshaeffer on 2002-07-19 23:52 ]
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chrisshaeffer
Jul 20, 2002, 7:03 AM
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D'oh! Tommy, I just saw your post.
I'm not really slow- just throwing a little sacarsm in my own direction that it took me several days to figure out why you might want to pass 2 ropes through an ATC. None of the books or articles I've read mention how to rappel with an ATC, but the manufacturer's call it a Belay/Rappel device.
Had to figure it out on my own. Not like it was hard: belaying and rappelling (with this device) are about the same thing. I trust my skills to save my climbing partner from a fall- that's what rappelling seemed to be: controlling my own fall.
Thanks for the words of caution, though. I DO realize that there are many, many variables and non-ovious dangers that I might not be aware of.
Take care,
Chris
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timpanogos
Jul 20, 2002, 12:15 PM
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Chriss,
Don't feel bad - I keep wanting to do some raps first when I got started.
However, I quickly found that most of the climbs are not that accessable to the top rappel chains/anchors other than to climb the route. And if they were accessable you found yourself leaning over the edge setting up, then the momement of loading was hard because you sometimes had to downclimb holding the brake ropes and slowly loading the anchor and getting everything straight all at the same time.
These are some of the reasons that more accidents tend to happen while rappeling.
Best thing is to just top rope them and climb them from the bottom - if you fall, hang-dog for a minute, get your witts, closely check out the area, and try again - repeat as needed. You can always check them out again on the way down, being lowered.
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tim
Jul 20, 2002, 12:45 PM
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Learn how to spider out your rap device (ATC) on a sling, girth hitched around the belt part of your harness, and back it up with a klemheist using about 24" of 7mm accessory cord or 5mm Vectran (my favorite) wrapped around the rope and clipped.
What you do, is instead of clipping the usual belay biner to your belay loop, you clip that locker to the end of the sling (with the ropes running through the ATC and biner as usual, only they're about 2' above your waist). Then, where you would typically have the ATC, instead clip another locker to your belay loop, and fasten the klemheist loop to it. This acts as a failsafe backup in case you want to stop and hang, take a picture, or get incapacitated mid-rappel. It also will help you control long free-hanging raps on smaller ropes (eg. 7.5mm twins, if you ever alpine climb). I find that 3 wraps for 10-11mm, 4 for 9mm, and 5 for 7.5-8mm ropes, is about right.
Then you won't have to worry so much about grabbing the rope too hard -- your backup knot will do it for you. If you make a habit of rapping routes, this could save your life if you ever get conked on the head by debris, rockfall, or other peoples' gear.
It is worth practicing until this technique becomes absolutely second nature.
[ This Message was edited by: jabbeaux on 2002-07-20 05:49 ]
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jeffers_mz
Jul 20, 2002, 3:05 PM
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What color pillow do you want in your casket?
That's right bud, yer a dead man walkin.
You got balls, no doubt about that, but without reasoned, experienced judgement to balance those size nineteen nutz, you're looking to make a crater bigger than the one in Arizona.
I'm NOT flaming you, or putting you down, or trying to make me look like an expert, I'm trying to let you see that a certain portion of your approach to learning new techniques is a fatal one.
Go over to wreck-dot-climbing and ask Brutus or DMT how they feel about the safety of rappelling, or ask The Baba here. These guys have more walls behind them than you and I have biners and even they approach the subject with respect or, in at least one case, outright terror.
Rapping is serious business, and jumping on a rope with NO backups of any kind, for your first rap, is suicide. You could have used a Klemheist or other backup knot, you could have rigged a toprope with a belayer, you could have had your buddy at the bottom doing a fireman's rappel, you could have tried in in the gym over pads, there's a million ways to lessen the odds and you used NONE of them.
Ok, you survived it anyway. There's two directions to go from here.
One, you can assume that you are magically charmed, can get away with breaking rules that have evolved mostly because someone died breaking them, and look around for your next adventure.
That brings us back to question one, regarding your burial arrangements.
Two, you can step back now and take a HARD look at how you want to approach acquiring new skills, not just rappelling, but in the big picture.
From insurance stats for the construction business, 60 percent of the people who fall 10' die.
You can recognize that technical climbing involves high risk for the slightest of mistakes, and start figuring ways to cut the odds in your favor, not just today, but over the long haul. If you don't, there isn't going to BE a long haul for you.
To learn a new skill, read all you can first. That will NOT teach you how, but it will give you a solid background of why things are done the way they are, safety procedures, and what the technique entails.
Then you need to pick your time and place, and pick the oldest, wisest, smartest sob you can find to take you out and SHOW you how to do it. You need a mean old bastard who'll peel skin off your ass for fvcking up, because no matter how mean he is, he ain't half the bitch that gravity is.
I'm not flaming you, ragging on you, picking on you, any of it. I applaud your sense of adventure, and remember when I was there myself, immortal enough to break any rule I felt like breaking. But I really hope you take a good hard look at the idea of 'learning by doing', at least in this sport, because you have the chill of death all over you. There ARE self taught climbers, but if you ask them, they will NOT recommend the approach. Too much on the line.
Your choice, bud. You can be sitting around the fire 20 years from now hoisting a beer to old dead climbers, or maybe they'll be hoisting a beer remembering you.
What's it going to be?
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chrisshaeffer
Jul 20, 2002, 3:59 PM
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Thanks, jeffers_mz.
No flame taken. I see your point completely- my next step in learning to rappel is to get someone to show me the backup techniques. I've read about some of them, but (obviously) haven't done them yet. Figuring out gear= easy with a little help. Figuring out how knots, anchors, and such work= get someone to show me.
Lord knows, I'm NOT magically charmed.
Its interesting that I met some rappellers years ago who thought climbing (trad) was the most dangerous thing on the face of the earth but didn't think twice about checking their gear and leaping head first (!) off a cliff. Here I'm finding the opposite.
But, I've been reading through the Injuries and Accidents forum (as well as other sites) and I see what you mean. Even cautious, intelligent climbers get in trouble. You never know when a slight lack of caution is going to mean a crater, so don't ever allow those slight slips to get through.
Take care,
Chris
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tim
Jul 20, 2002, 4:35 PM
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It's actually much simpler than that:
A plurality of climbers who die climbing, die from rappel accidents. In other words, statistically, you're most likely to buy the farm by rappelling improperly.
Re-read my post, okay?
Have fun, be safe, don't screw around.
--tim
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apollodorus
Jul 20, 2002, 4:54 PM
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Hanging to get beta is probably redpointing, no matter how you do it. I wouldn't try it at a contest, which is the only place a word like cheating has any meaning.
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beyond_gravity
Jul 20, 2002, 6:19 PM
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Rapping anytime is totally unethical. Everything should be done on lead Ground Up
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natec
Jul 20, 2002, 6:43 PM
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That's so funny BG. I just read one of your posts last night about how you can't stand people judging other people's ethic or style.
Here you are doing it yourself.
For a reference please see topic titled
"have you got a stiffie"
EDIT: I'm not writing to be a jerk, but try to be a little consistent.
[ This Message was edited by: natec on 2002-07-20 11:54 ]
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jt512
Jul 23, 2002, 12:33 AM
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Chris,
Not to put too fine a point on it: Climbing outdoors for the first time without an experienced partner was a really dumb idea. Next time, go with an experienced partner, who can make sure you're being safe in every aspect of your climbing.
Now, to answer your question. Most climbers would consider pre-inspecting a route on rappel to be a form of beta, so if you lead the route clean on your first try, your ascent would be a beta-flash. It would only be "cheating" (more like lying) if you claimed an "on-sight."
-Jay
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jeffers_mz
Jul 23, 2002, 11:50 AM
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Good deal, Chris.
Nothing wrong with a trial and error approach for some things, just not ones where the first mistake can be fatal.
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billcoe_
Jul 24, 2002, 2:43 AM
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Jeffers: very well spoken sir.
Chris: his post was right on the money. I just learned the other day, that a standard figure 8 can break a locking carabiner (when fully locked no less) open and pull off. This has resulted in several deaths. I almost always double up those carabiners, but I had no idea this could happen.
I've been climbing 30 years and have a fairly solid resume.
Still learning.
Now: to answer your origonal post, I reqularly look at routes I'm rappelling. Doesn't matter if I have done them in the past, just did it, will do it or want to do it some other time. I like looking at the silverfish running in and out, the constrictions and where a good place to put pro may be, is there poison Oak, the rests etc. I just look. Even if I just led it, I'll look on the lower off. That being said, I do not go rappel a route I want to climb just to look at it before I take a shot at sending it.
As an aside, where were you when you were rappelling?
Regards:
Bill
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philbox
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Jul 24, 2002, 3:22 AM
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All the safety type warnings have already been said, I`d like to take up on where jeffers_mz left off.
I`ve been climbing for several years now and I still hate abseiling/rapelling. Every time I go over the edge I`ve checked my gear/harness/knots/back up at least 3 or 4 times. I can relate to the words outright terror when it comes to rapping.
Climbing up is where I get my jollies but when I get to the top and I have to come down I would rather walk all the way around to the bottom than rap. Of course sometimes it isn`t always possible to walk off and this is where it becomes necessary to indulge in a near death experience.
The worst of it is when I have to go over a sharp edge with my anchor near my feet and the rope is running along the ground before heading over the edge. Often I`ll sit on the edge and crawl over on my belly until the rope starts to catch me, once I`m on the way down the demons are somewhat assuaged but I`m checking stuff the whole way down.
When I get to an overhang I almost can`t bring myself to continue down. I think it`s a control thing in my head. I have to admit to myself that I`m a control freak. When I`m climbing I`m in control but when I`ve gotta put my butt out over the void I begin not to trust my gear or the system. I`m verrrrry suspicious of all the things that I do at this point.
Lord never let me become complacent when it comes to rapping. Are you beginning to understand how serious an undertaking abseiling is. It looks so simple but invariably its the thing which will reach out and snuff your life out.
[ This Message was edited by: philbox on 2002-07-23 20:24 ]
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chrisshaeffer
Jul 24, 2002, 4:35 AM
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This has been great for me, folks. Not what I expected, but exactly what I needed. Yes, I'm getting a clearer picture of the dangers of rappelling and the need to be...well, not stupid.
I'm not at all a thrill seeker, though I'm sure my original post sounds like I am. Your warnings have all been heard and I thought about it a lot over the weekend. Thanks.
Bill, I'm curious about that fig-8 thing.
Is there a link to finding out more about that?
Thanks, all.
Chris
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