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ambler
Aug 24, 2005, 8:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: W. Face of El Cap, FA 1967, 1 bolt How many bolts do modern parties need, just to aid them? moder parties don't aid this climb, they free it!! (and that's a better style) |
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jkarns
Aug 24, 2005, 8:31 PM
Post #102 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: W. Face of El Cap, FA 1967, 1 bolt How many bolts do modern parties need, just to aid them? moder parties don't aid this climb, they free it!! (and that's a better style) Ah, maybe so, for the West Face--no more aid climbers there? But then what's the ratio of aid to free ascents nowadays on the Salathe? And with how many bolts, bottom to top?
That's not the issue. The issue is that bolts, rivets, etc are inherently part of aid climbing, because changling seems to think that they are not.
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 8:33 PM
Post #103 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: W. Face of El Cap, FA 1967, 1 bolt How many bolts do modern parties need, just to aid them? moder parties don't aid this climb, they free it!! (and that's a better style) Ah, maybe so, for the West Face--no more aid climbers there? But then what's the ratio of aid to free ascents nowadays on the Salathe? And with how many bolts, bottom to top? That's not the issue. The issue is that bolts, rivets, etc are inherently part of aid climbing, because changling seems to think that they are not.
Er, have you ever aid climbed?
Oh and didn't you see the route I posted where not a single bolt was placed?
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ambler
Aug 24, 2005, 8:36 PM
Post #104 of 159
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In reply to: That's not the issue. The issue is that bolts, rivets, etc are inherently part of aid climbing, because changling seems to think that they are not. |
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grimpiperx
Aug 24, 2005, 8:38 PM
Post #105 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: Sharma, or whomever, has IMPROVED the route, and is attempting to actually CLIMB IT! There is no way you can say that bolting a route is somehow bringing a route down whilst spewing the love of AIDING! AID is not CLIMBING! I don't AID because I choose to climb instead. I am absolutely astounded that somone can beleive that pounding pins rurps, nails, etc . . . into rock with a hammer on a regular basis is somehow less damaging than having fixed protection. I truely hope that I have been trolled and/or that you simply like to provoke argument and that you don't actually subscribe to the views you have been spewing. Hahahahaha! I believe you actually mean that, don't you! Oh man, I really shouldn't laugh - it's really quite sad, but I can't help it. Bwahahahahaha! G:lol:
I agree with leaverbiner Aid is not climbing, In Sport, Trad and bouldering It is just you climbing the rock, bolts, nuts, cams, pads etc are just to prevent you from dying, in aid you actually use gear to get your fat asses up the rock, it is not real climbing. No I haven't Climbed A4 but thats because I havent tried on account of its not climbing.
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 8:40 PM
Post #106 of 159
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In reply to: I agree with leaverbiner Aid is not climbing, In Sport, Trad and bouldering It is just you climbing the rock, bolts, nuts, cams, pads etc are just to prevent you from dying, in aid you actually use gear to get your fat asses up the rock, it is not real climbing. No I haven't Climbed A4 but thats because I havent tried on account of its not climbing.
Are you not using shoes to get your fat ass up the rock?
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jelliott
Aug 24, 2005, 8:46 PM
Post #107 of 159
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Well damn if aid ain't climbing then we should all never climb the Nose or anything other big wall else unless YOU can do it FREE. And you know what else why are they called peppers? are they still banning Dr. Pepper? was it named to piss off Canucks? I like oreos and dr. pepper. My dog like oreos too. I miss my dog.
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jkarns
Aug 24, 2005, 8:50 PM
Post #108 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: W. Face of El Cap, FA 1967, 1 bolt How many bolts do modern parties need, just to aid them? moder parties don't aid this climb, they free it!! (and that's a better style) Ah, maybe so, for the West Face--no more aid climbers there? But then what's the ratio of aid to free ascents nowadays on the Salathe? And with how many bolts, bottom to top? That's not the issue. The issue is that bolts, rivets, etc are inherently part of aid climbing, because changling seems to think that they are not. Er, have you ever aid climbed? Oh and didn't you see the route I posted where not a single bolt was placed?
Yes, I have aid climbed. no, I have never placed a bolt while doing it. yes, I have clipped a bolt while doing it. No, none of my aid climbing was big or exciting; I found it both scary and boring at the same time.
Good for you! You found a single big wall half way around the globe that doesn't have any bolts!!! That does not change the fact that bolts and rivets are integral to big walls.
Why not ask how many big wall first ascentionists head out without a bolt kit. I bet the people who put up that route that you found had one with them. They just got lucky and didn't need to use it.
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jkarns
Aug 24, 2005, 8:59 PM
Post #109 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: W. Face of El Cap, FA 1967, 1 bolt How many bolts do modern parties need, just to aid them? moder parties don't aid this climb, they free it!! (and that's a better style) Ah, maybe so, for the West Face--no more aid climbers there? But then what's the ratio of aid to free ascents nowadays on the Salathe? And with how many bolts, bottom to top? That's not the issue. The issue is that bolts, rivets, etc are inherently part of aid climbing, because changling seems to think that they are not. Er, have you ever aid climbed? Oh and didn't you see the route I posted where not a single bolt was placed?
Yes, I have aid climbed. no, I have never placed a bolt while doing it. yes, I have clipped a bolt while doing it. No, none of my aid climbing was big or exciting; I found it both scary and boring at the same time.
Good for you! You found a single big wall half way around the globe that doesn't have any bolts!!! That does not change the fact that bolts and rivets are integral to big walls.
Why not ask how many big wall first ascentionists head out without a bolt kit. I bet the people who put up that route that you found had one with them. They just got lucky and didn't need to use it.
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 9:00 PM
Post #110 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: That's not the issue. The issue is that bolts, rivets, etc are inherently part of aid climbing, because changling seems to think that they are not. I must have missed where she said that. I thought she was objecting to adding bolts that changed the character (such as it was) of an established, apparently quite minor, climb. More or less the same argument could apply to a longer route, couldn't it?
Ambler, you are right about what I object.
But besides, aiding is more than just pins and bolt on big walls. Quite frankly, I didn't think much about aid until I tried it for the first time 4 years ago, and it changed my view completely. I learned what it was. Maybe if jkarns decided to cross that threshold and try aid climbing, his view might change as well.
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leaverbiner
Aug 24, 2005, 9:13 PM
Post #111 of 159
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I never said that Aiding a route is not an ascent, even an ascent worth of some note, but it is not CLIMBING IMHO. I also never said that I did not have at least some degree of respect for people who aid lines that have never been climbed. I don't deny that it takes balls, and there is a degree of physical strength and technique required, but that does not make it CLIMBING.
My statements about AID v. climbing were in response to the completely absurd statements made by Changling that somehow bolting an aid line dumbed down the route and brought it down to a person's lesser standard when there can be no debate that CLIMBING a line - even if using bolts for protection - is a more difficult and admirable accomplishment than AIDING it!! The whole reason lines are aided is because they can't be climbed (at least not by the party doin the aiding!).
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 9:13 PM
Post #112 of 159
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In reply to: Yes, I have aid climbed. no, I have never placed a bolt while doing it. yes, I have clipped a bolt while doing it. No, none of my aid climbing was big or exciting; I found it both scary and boring at the same time.
Well, at least you tried. But clipping bolts is not integral to aid climbing. As it was said, Rurp Riot had no bolts.
In reply to: Good for you! You found a single big wall half way around the globe that doesn't have any bolts!!! That does not change the fact that bolts and rivets are integral to big walls.
It's only there if the party that climbed it wanted it there. There are many aid routes without bolts, but I don't feel like searching more for you. And so what if the route I mentioned is in Europe. Do you think Yosemite is the only place in the world where big walls exist?
In reply to: Why not ask how many big wall first ascentionists head out without a bolt kit. I bet the people who put up that route that you found had one with them. They just got lucky and didn't need to use it.
Mark Twight has climbed plenty of big steep mountains, and he is quite vocal about his complete refusal to ever use bolts.
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 9:25 PM
Post #113 of 159
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In reply to: My statements about AID v. climbing were in response to the completely absurd statements made by Changling that somehow bolting an aid line dumbed down the route and brought it down to a person's lesser standard when there can be no debate that CLIMBING a line - even if using bolts for protection - is a more difficult and admirable accomplishment than AIDING it!!
I personally find nothing admirable about placing bolts on an established route just because you don't like the style it was originally climbed in. And how can you say he didn't dumb it down when the reason he placed the bolts is because he couldn't get up the thing the same way others have done so. Just because you don't consider aiding to be climbing, doesn't make it so. I can imagine that you are also the type of person that would impose your style on others.
Hell, if there was no route there, and Sharma decided to place bolts where he put them now, then that's fine. The point is, there was a route, and he imposed his style on something that was already established and others have climbed.
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grimpiperx
Aug 24, 2005, 9:26 PM
Post #114 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: I agree with leaverbiner Aid is not climbing, In Sport, Trad and bouldering It is just you climbing the rock, bolts, nuts, cams, pads etc are just to prevent you from dying, in aid you actually use gear to get your fat asses up the rock, it is not real climbing. No I haven't Climbed A4 but thats because I havent tried on account of its not climbing. Are you not using shoes to get your fat ass up the rock?
well...I've done V4 with no shoes, but not many people are calling shoes aid....
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 9:31 PM
Post #115 of 159
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In reply to: well...I've done V4 with no shoes, but not many people are calling shoes aid....
So what if most people don't consider shoes to be aid? The fact is, most people wouldn't be free climbing what they are doing now without their tight, foot mutilating, sticky rubber soled shoes.
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shakylegs
Aug 24, 2005, 9:32 PM
Post #116 of 159
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In reply to: well...I've done V4 with no shoes, but not many people are calling shoes aid....
Aren't you the bees' knees?
So, can you climb without shoes? Because we all know that bouldering, like aid, isn't really climbing.
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caughtinside
Aug 24, 2005, 9:33 PM
Post #117 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: well...I've done V4 with no shoes, but not many people are calling shoes aid.... So what if most people don't consider shoes to be aid? The fact is, most people wouldn't be free climbing what they are doing now without their tight, foot mutilating, sticky rubber soled shoes.
Well, it beats standing in slings. Where, last time I checked, you don't get pumped. :P
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grimpiperx
Aug 24, 2005, 9:37 PM
Post #118 of 159
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In reply to: And how can you say he didn't dumb it down when the reason he placed the bolts is because he couldn't get up the thing the same way others have done so.
He was making it into an actual climb its not like he tried to aid it. He saw it and most likely thought "Wow, that could go free" and improved the Line. Sonnie Trotter actually bolted it. He is not "imposing" his style, many many people were trying to sport it (I was there) Bolts do not make the climb un-aidable. So how has he messed with it? Now people can climb it and aid it.
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jkarns
Aug 24, 2005, 9:38 PM
Post #119 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: well...I've done V4 with no shoes, but not many people are calling shoes aid.... So what if most people don't consider shoes to be aid? The fact is, most people wouldn't be free climbing what they are doing now without their tight, foot mutilating, sticky rubber soled shoes.
This is the point. What most people think, on any given subject in the world, is important.
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 9:39 PM
Post #120 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: well...I've done V4 with no shoes, but not many people are calling shoes aid.... So what if most people don't consider shoes to be aid? The fact is, most people wouldn't be free climbing what they are doing now without their tight, foot mutilating, sticky rubber soled shoes. Well, it beats standing in slings. Where, last time I checked, you don't get pumped. :P
I like standing in slings. Besides, the mental game is far more interesting than getting "pumped".
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jkarns
Aug 24, 2005, 9:45 PM
Post #121 of 159
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In reply to: I like standing in slings. Besides, the mental game is far more interesting than getting "pumped".
Why not go trad climbing and get both? Or BETTER YET! Highball bouldering!!
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caughtinside
Aug 24, 2005, 9:47 PM
Post #122 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: well...I've done V4 with no shoes, but not many people are calling shoes aid.... So what if most people don't consider shoes to be aid? The fact is, most people wouldn't be free climbing what they are doing now without their tight, foot mutilating, sticky rubber soled shoes. Well, it beats standing in slings. Where, last time I checked, you don't get pumped. :P I like standing in slings. Besides, the mental game is far more interesting than getting "pumped".
Every aspect of climbing has a different mental element. Runout trad, for example. Finding rests on overhanging climbs. I see the attraction of aid climbing, and have done small bits of it myself. It's just too slow for me. Plus, it does boil down to the fact that I think that free climbing is just much better style, bolts or no. And, I don't believe for a second that aid climbing is more 'advanced' than other forms of climbing.
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grimpiperx
Aug 24, 2005, 9:47 PM
Post #123 of 159
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oy, cant delete, see next
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changling
Aug 24, 2005, 9:50 PM
Post #124 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: And how can you say he didn't dumb it down when the reason he placed the bolts is because he couldn't get up the thing the same way others have done so. He was making it into an actual climb its not like he tried to aid it. He saw it and most likely thought "Wow, that could go free" and improved the Line. Sonnie Trotter actually bolted it. He is not "imposing" his style, many many people were trying to sport it (I was there) Bolts do not make the climb un-aidable. So how has he messed with it? Now people can climb it and aid it.
Well, the route has losts it's feel. He added something to a pre-existing line that wasn't there. Not everyone enjoys going up an old route, only to find new bolts on it. Some people look for something beyond just getting up a piece of rock.
But like I said, it doesn't sound like that particular route is much of a loss.
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grimpiperx
Aug 24, 2005, 9:50 PM
Post #125 of 159
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In reply to: In reply to: well...I've done V4 with no shoes, but not many people are calling shoes aid.... Aren't you the bees' knees? So, can you climb without shoes? Because we all know that bouldering, like aid, isn't really climbing.
Please explain how bouldering isn't climbing. Well I was just saying that anyways it is possible, Marcus Garcia redpointed Nuria, an 87foot 5.14b.
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