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atpeaceinbozeman
Nov 21, 2005, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: 15) I feel not doing wrong and if someone out there is free of any defect and has already gained perfection (universal wisdom, compassion, immortality etc. ) so he might throw the first stone .... 16) possible conclusion: the present evolutionary state of the US shows arrogance, selfishness and very efficient materialism with strong tendencies to brutality and revenge - and they love their many dogmas ..
Ironic, making judgments after asking not to be judged.
Thank for the update on the U.S. BTW :roll:
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holdplease2
Nov 21, 2005, 5:13 PM
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Hi Henry:
Thanks for jumpin in and sharing your perspective. BTW - I debated changing my first post after we worked thru things, but thought that was kinda weak and lame to do so. If you want me to tone it down, I will.
Hope you are well, sorry for being such a bitch.
-Kate.
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epic_ed
Nov 21, 2005, 6:01 PM
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Henry -- you're not a lawyer and neither is Kate. Neither of you has the necessary background to know for certain what conditions, waivers, and approval is or is not required by US law to distribute a video with people who do not want to be in it. We've had a boatload of arm-chair speculation both here and Supertopo about the legalities. Your opinion may be wrong. Kate's might be wrong, too. Short of Kate or someone else in the video hiring a lawyer to look into the matter, we may never know. For those reasons, I think Kate and the rest of us who agree with her have decided to drop arguing with you about that angle of the controversey.
That brings us to the only matter worth discussing any further -- respect for the request of anther person. Instead of putting yourself in Kate's shoes and giving her request some sincere consideration from the perspective of a female that tries to keep her life as private as possible, you have choosen to defend your "right" to do whatever you please with your video footage.
That choice, and the defense of your decision making process you have noted above, speak volumes about you. I'm glad you took out the footage Kate requested. I regret that you have no ability to empathize with Kate's perspective, and that you insist on putting your own wants and desires above even a semblance of diplomacy.
And leave the political crap out of it -- we're dealing with individual personalities in this case. No doubt our cultures influence who we are and how we act, but there's no need to inject your political opinions into this discussion.
Ed
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saphius
Nov 21, 2005, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: 16) possible conclusion: the present evolutionary state of the US shows arrogance, selfishness and very efficient materialism with strong tendencies to brutality and revenge - and they love their many dogmas ..
Coming from a German (Someone did say he's German, right?)? Comical.
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mbsocal
Nov 21, 2005, 10:57 PM
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Dick wrote...
5) free press is one of the highest goods in US, protected by the constitution
16) possible conclusion: the present evolutionary state of the US shows arrogance, selfishness and very efficient materialism with strong tendencies to brutality and revenge - and they love their many dogmas ..
...So on one hand you defend the US and on the other slap? This whole thing sounds to me like a personal dispute. Don't try to blow it up into some journalistic higher ground.
You were a "(*! and you got "free pressed".
pc
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glockaroo
Nov 22, 2005, 5:05 AM
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I got Henry's "Mescalito" DVD. It's great. I'm so glad he made it and offered it to fellow bigwallers. All this whining about "models", "releases" and legalese is a bunch of crap. You people should spend that energy on training and... climbing.
Thanks Henry! Viva Heinz57!
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grovehunter
Nov 22, 2005, 6:37 AM
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I thought about getting this video because I am interested in big wall climbing. I also noticed from this thread that big wall climbers don't seem to want anything to do with other climbers, maybe my perceptions are wrong. The few I've corresponded with had a better than you attitude. Now I wonder if I'll ever want to fulfill my dream of climbing some of yosemite's big walls after quietly watching this thread. SAD, REALLY SAD.......
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holdplease2
Nov 22, 2005, 6:57 AM
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Dear Groovy Grovehunter:
If you would let the fact that two climbers out of tens of thousands of climbers have a conflict, which is, in fact ,resolved impact whether or not you follow your life dreams, that is what would be sad. Really sad. For you.
If someone told you that big trees were dorky, would you stop traveling the world to see them? No way, you are, after all, the Grovehunter.
If people said that your wife was heinous, would you leave her? Nope.
If two cubs fans got in a fight, would you give up on the cubs? Of course not!
Come on, Groovy Grove Guy, Climb on, and don't let anyone elses problems stand in your way.
-Kate.
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grovehunter
Nov 22, 2005, 8:45 AM
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It's cool, still climbing, still making my dreams happen..... sometimes?
I just hate fighting! I've spent a lifetime fighting everything and everyone. Getting hurt and doing some hurting. I'm sick of it. I'm just a guy who has spent the last six years of his life changing for the better. No more sadness, no more violence, no more anger, no more pain!!!!! I'm on a mission of peace and I kind of hope I won't be alone. It bothers me to see myself in you folks arguing and fighting. It's a tough enough world and I know this all too well
:? Peace,
Chuck
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heinz57
Nov 22, 2005, 8:55 AM
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hi climberz in the US out there:
I wroter earlier: 16) possible conclusion: the present evolutionary state of the US shows arrogance, selfishness and very efficient materialism with strong tendencies to brutality and revenge - and they love their many dogmas ..
well - it is a possible conclusion, NOT that one I really have
I have met so many nice guys out there (even when they are drunk or doped) that my conclusion is a much better one. the possible conclusion here belongs just to this matter. Kate triggered off a forum where I appear as a rat and her supporters ready to beat me up, well ...... so this posssible conclusion came up
however, I stick to the right of free press, everybody of us can claim and once again: privacy is not guaranteed in public - as said: my video is a documenation of a bigwall and the TRUTH still remains: Kate was on New Dawn
Kate hates me for some personal reason I do not know, but she should enforce her dislike not via a legal matter like press freedom and calling all the people trying to step on me: it will go on Kate's karma account - the person who triggered off all this in public .....
well, so far quite a lot of people got this dvd and enjoyed it - that was the only purpose of that "making available" .....
AT LAST: if there is anyone out who wants to see the documentary fact that Kate is hanging nicely on New Dawn I can send him a snapshot ........
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justsendingits
Nov 22, 2005, 9:54 AM
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So she was on N.D. big deal. Great route!!
Great debate on the morals of image use in public, but um, er, what i want to know from Heinz is---------- did you really look through her stuff at the base? Heinz, just a guess, but this might be one of the reasons she does not like you.
IMO This seems to be of more importance than image.
Good thing for Heinz it was somebody nice like Kate that saw you looking thru her stuff and not one of the other monkey's, where I was born and raised(Missouri) they still have this thing called "Frontier justice" you guy's got anything like that in Germany?
And I don't reacall Kate asking anyone to "step on you" I think a lot of us came up with that on our own.
Rich
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heinz57
Nov 22, 2005, 1:39 PM
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hi rich .....
now it seems Kate tries to find any reason to make a lawsuit ....
well, the fact is: she and we (me and my wallpartner) had stuffed packs behind the flake at the base of Mescalito. Once in a morning, as we came to fix to Anchorage ledge, we took our haulbag and placed more water in it. Later a bear went into the bags (his claws left scares) : the bear took of our bag all the Gatorade but left the normal water ...... a gourmet !
So it is clearly and unmisunderstoodly to state here: I was not in her bags neither in her stuff !
I have a witness for that. If you look down from high up it is impossible to distinguish what you are doing, especially when a persons bends over a haulbag. And I have a picture of our haulbag there ! If she claims I was in her bags than this is a blunt ly .....
all this is going now ridiculuous and shows the real character of someone who likes to step on a person like a park ranger or bite like a bull-dog ......
it appears to me that Kate is trying to bring other people into outrage in order to do what she is not capable: to get me physically - and that is definitely a criminal act !
but there remains still one TRUTH: Kate was on New Dawn ... and with all these tricks the TRUTH cannot be wiped out
I have filed away now all the comments of the different people here and on a supertopo-forum which is a lot of evidence what shit Kate triggered off and on what she is really on: to step on a fellow climber and Yosemite enthusiast by any means, make him bad and look like a criminal ... but she will fail and get a payback for all the bad emotions invested into that .......
if this rallying people against me does not stop I shall consider myself other steps
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epic_ed
Nov 22, 2005, 1:41 PM
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Grovehunter -- if anything this is an example of how willing climbers can be to rally around one of their own friends in an attempt to right a perceived wrong. Henry, thanks for keeping it civil. I don't agree with your perspective, but Kate has essentially gotten the result she wanted (which I think was a more than reasonable request) and it sounds like the video, itself, is a nice production. Good for you.
I think we've debated this at length -- enough to chime in about what we think it right and wrong, and enough so that all parties involved seem satisfied with the outcome. Henry or Kate, if you'd like to comment further in this thread (to clarify, wrap up...whatever), please do so. I'd ask the rest of you to let this one start to fade into oblivion.
Ed
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epic_ed
Nov 22, 2005, 1:51 PM
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Well, I posted the above as Henry was posting his latest comments.
Not as civil. Kate hasn't threatened you and she's not trying to make up stuff about you to get others to dislike you. Kate was challenged to explain what beef she had with you, and she described a few instances where you made her uncomfortable. You offer a good explanation for what may have happened with the haul bags, and it's entirely possible that Kate was just being paranoid about the other stuff. Fact is, this was her perception. I can tell you with great certainty, Kate is out to get no one. She just wants some privacy and respect, much like any of us would.
As far as I know, Kate has dropped the matter and now that she is out of the video there's no need to persue legal council, so there's no need to get worked up about that possibility, either.
Ed
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heinz57
Nov 22, 2005, 1:54 PM
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hi ed ....
I agree with you - lets stop all this now : it leads to nowhere.
I just put an answer to Rich, which answers his accusations of getting into Kate's stuff .....
all this is very sad and bad ....
well I agree I could have done what Kate wished right away - I did it later for some other reasons. you might think I am a rat but I believe to report the TRUTH, which is guaranteed by the free press act, is of a higher value ...
by the way : do you want the original dvd ? (use my email: h.wurzer@web.de)
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theman
Nov 22, 2005, 2:13 PM
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can uh um uh cant cant we all just get get along
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epic_ed
Nov 22, 2005, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: can uh um uh cant cant we all just get get along
We actually get along with much greater regularity then it may seem sometimes -- and in far greater numbers than those who don't. The commaradarie I've experienced over the years via friends I've met on this site, other sites, and out at the crags has been staggering. I'm sincerely proud to be a part of the climbing community, and consider many I've met over the years as family.
Kate is one of those to me. When she feels threatened or treated disrespectfully, it gets my hackles up. She has done many kind things for me and other friends of mine over the years and I have a greater respect for her, as a person, than most anyone I've ever known. Henry, I don't think you're a rat. I know you've spent several summers in Yosemite and have had the good fortune to experience the same type of friendship that I'm talking about with other climbers. It's clear that there is just a personality conflict between you and Kate. I'm not your biggest fan, either, but who really gives a shit. Maybe we can sort out our differences this spring in Camp4. I'd be willing to talk with you about it and hopefully we can have a few good laughs. We'd probably find we have more in common than expected.
I certainly won't speak for Kate, but I know for a fact that she doesn't hold a grudge. You're not the only one who has gotten caught in her cross-hairs -- let's just say we didn't start out as friends. There may be a chance you two can sort out your differences. You'd be a lucky man to be able to call her a friend some day.
Ed
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grovehunter
Nov 22, 2005, 4:01 PM
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Heinz, You are an idiot from Germany. If you want to talk about many dogmas how about WW2. DON'T BASH MY COUNTRY BECAUSE YOU HAVE A FIXATION WITH KATE AND SHE WANTS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!! Are you getting the picture here Heinz? Maybe if you left her alone, Stayed away from her camp or the climbs she is on, and didn't go through her belongings she might not have the attitude. Oh and couple more things! As far as you and any other disrespectful FOREIGN FU@#$ are concerned Yosemite is MINE. Stay out of it Foreign Fu@#%!!! Did you copy that Gayboy? And before you even think of getting any logical Euro replies, Just remember 6 million Jews and the shame of your country and its many dogmas before you even think about ripping into mine and its fair citizens.
Go home loser and stay there!!!!!! Oh and one more note since you have me pissed. I am normally a peaceful guy, but you've insulted my homeland and its people. So I'll say it one more time DON'T BASH MY COUNTRY!
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j_ung
Nov 22, 2005, 4:19 PM
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PM and official warning sent:
In reply to: Hello grovehunter, This is an automatically generated message. j_ung is sending you this note because a post you made in http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/101017 does not seem to be within the site's terms of service, or TOS, which you agreed to at the time you submitted your post. Nothing untoward is going to happen to you as a result of this, but please read their comments below, and contact them if you have further questions regarding the matter. Thank you. In reply to: Comments from j_ung re: Heinz, You are an idiot from Germany. If you want to talk about many dogmas how about WW2. DON'T BASH MY COUNTRY BECAUSE YOU HAVE A FIXATION WITH KATE AND SHE WANTS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!! Are you getting the picture here Heinz? Maybe if you left her alone, Stayed away from her camp or the climbs she is on, and didn't go through her belongings she might not have the attitude. Oh and couple more things! As far as you and any other disrespectful FOREIGN FU@#$ are concerned Yosemite is MINE. Stay out of it Foreign Fu@#%!!! Did you copy that Gayboy? And before you even think of getting any logical Euro replies, Just remember 6 million Jews and the shame of your country and its many dogmas before you even think about ripping into mine and its fair citizens. Go home loser and stay there!!!!!! Oh and one more note since you have me pissed. I am normally a peaceful guy, but you've insulted my homeland and its people. So I'll say it one more time DON'T BASH MY COUNTRY! Your post goes so far beyond what is allowable on this site -- and indeed in any setting in society -- that I feel entirely justified in removing it from the forums forever. |
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j_ung
Nov 22, 2005, 4:32 PM
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This thread has now been officially moderated, thanks to a highly inappropriate remark made by a normally calm and collected user. If not civil, then please at least keep it within the bounds of reason and sanity, eh? We're all adults here. :wink:
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areuinclimber
Nov 22, 2005, 4:53 PM
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just got the dvd a couple days ago (came while on the nose) and its ok. from the looks of it, henry, your climbing systems need buffing but otherwise its a documentation of a good send... congrats. and also, just to stoke the fire... kate is pretty clear in that vid. i've talked to talk kate online and having never seen her before this video i could pick her out in the meadow probably. the wierd thing is though that when henry asked her to say something she seemed pretty happy. oh well,
:deadhorse:
rich, are you gonna be in the valley next summer?
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epic_ed
Nov 22, 2005, 5:43 PM
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Well, you got to it before I could. I was surprised to see that response from him. Clearly, he's a bit livid, eh?
Ed
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holdplease2
Nov 22, 2005, 5:50 PM
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Dear Henry:
I was pissed, like I said, unreasonably so, then said sorry, here, in email, and elsewhere.
Apparently you are still sending the vid with me in it, thats fine. Do what you like and enjoy it.
You are also welcome to send the still pictures to people, as you have suggested you would like to do.
In fact, You can even send around the ones you took last year while I was fixing on Mescalito on the two days that you came to the base to watch and take pictures. I was FATTER then. IF you can trim my theighs with photoshop first, that would be great. :?
Others -I look happy being filmed...because I was not being filmed by Henry, but rather by my friend, his parther. Little did I know, the vid was on Henry's camera. Oops. Won't let THAT happen again. :roll:
Anyway, enjoy your fun with selling/distributing/emailing the photos, its all legal, and its your right. I am sorry to get so angry, I did not realize that people could do this.
Henry is NOT a bad guy, we just disagree on some things and he has rubbed me wrong on more than one occasion. One thing we do agree on is that Freedom of the Press is important. Stupidly, I didn't realize that this meant that anyone who wanted to do so can take pictures of you anytime and sell objects containing them without your permission or without telling you first. My Bad.
-Kate.
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thomasribiere
Nov 22, 2005, 6:06 PM
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Nothing more than a warning and a removed post? :? I'm a bit surprised...
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