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overlord


Dec 14, 2005, 10:24 AM
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How many people you have to kill...
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before you qualify to be described as a mass murderer and a war criminal?

In reply to:
Political language, as used by politicians, does not venture into any of this territory since the majority of politicians, on the evidence available to us, are interested not in truth but in power and in the maintenance of that power. To maintain that power it is essential that people remain in ignorance, that they live in ignorance of the truth, even the truth of their own lives. What surrounds us therefore is a vast tapestry of lies, upon which we feed.

As every single person here knows, the justification for the invasion of Iraq was that Saddam Hussein possessed a highly dangerous body of weapons of mass destruction, some of which could be fired in 45 minutes, bringing about appalling devastation. We were assured that was true. It was not true. We were told that Iraq had a relationship with Al Quaeda and shared responsibility for the atrocity in New York of September 11th 2001. We were assured that this was true. It was not true. We were told that Iraq threatened the security of the world. We were assured it was true. It was not true.

The truth is something entirely different. The truth is to do with how the United States understands its role in the world and how it chooses to embody it.

But before I come back to the present I would like to look at the recent past, by which I mean United States foreign policy since th
e end of the Second World War. I believe it is obligatory upon us to subject this period to at least some kind of even limited scrutiny, which is all that time will allow here.

Everyone knows what happened in the Soviet Union and throughout Eastern Europe during the post-war period: the systematic brutality, the widespread atrocities, the ruthless suppression of independent thought. All this has been fully documented and verified.

But my contention here is that the US crimes in the same period have only been superficially recorded, let alone documented, let alone acknowledged, let alone recognised as crimes at all. I believe this must be addressed and that the truth has considerable bearing on where the world stands now. Although constrained, to a certain extent, by the existence of the Soviet Union, the United States' actions throughout the world made it clear that it had concluded it had carte blanche to do what it liked.

Direct invasion of a sovereign state has never in fact been America's favoured method. In the main, it has preferred what it has described as 'low intensity conflict'. Low intensity conflict means that thousands of people die but slower than if you dropped a bomb on them in one fell swoop. It means that you infect the heart of the country, that you establish a malignant growth and watch the gangrene bloom. When the populace has been subdued – or beaten to death – the same thing – and your own friends, the military and the great corporations, sit comfortably in power, you go before the camera and say that democracy has prevailed. This was a commonplace in US foreign policy in the years to which I refer.

In reply to:
The United States supported and in many cases engendered every right wing military dictatorship in the world after the end of the Second World War. I refer to Indonesia, Greece, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay, Haiti, Turkey, the Philippines, Guatemala, El Salvador, and, of course, Chile. The horror the United States inflicted upon Chile in 1973 can never be purged and can never be forgiven.

Hundreds of thousands of deaths took place throughout these countries. Did they take place? And are they in all cases attributable to US foreign policy? The answer is yes they did take place and they are attributable to American foreign policy. But you wouldn't know it.

It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn't happening. It didn't matter. It was of no interest. The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.

I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road. Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self love. It's a winner. Listen to all American presidents on television say the words, 'the American people', as in the sentence, 'I say to the American people it is time to pray and to defend the rights of the American people and I ask the American people to trust their president in the action he is about to take on behalf of the American people.'

It's a scintillating stratagem. Language is actually employed to keep thought at bay. The words 'the American people' provide a truly voluptuous cushion of reassurance. You don't need to think. Just lie back on the cushion. The cushion may be suffocating your intelligence and your critical faculties but it's very comfortable. This does not apply of course to the 40 million people living below the poverty line and the 2 million men and women imprisoned in the vast gulag of prisons, which extends across the US.

The United States no longer bothers about low intensity conflict. It no longer sees any point in being reticent or even devious. It puts its cards on the table without fear or favour. It quite simply doesn't give a damn about the United Nations, international law or critical dissent, which it regards as impotent and irrelevant. It also has its own bleating little lamb tagging behind it on a lead, the pathetic and supine Great Britain.

What has happened to our moral sensibility? Did we ever have any? What do these words mean? Do they refer to a term very rarely employed these days – conscience? A conscience to do not only with our own acts but to do with our shared responsibility in the acts of others? Is all this dead? Look at Guantanamo Bay. Hundreds of people detained without charge for over three years, with no legal representation or due process, technically detained forever. This totally illegitimate structure is maintained in defiance of the Geneva Convention. It is not only tolerated but hardly thought about by what's called the 'international community'. This criminal outrage is being committed by a country, which declares itself to be 'the leader of the free world'. Do we think about the inhabitants of Guantanamo Bay? What does the media say about them? They pop up occasionally – a small item on page six. They have been consigned to a no man's land from which indeed they may never return. At present many are on hunger strike, being force-fed, including British residents. No niceties in these force-feeding procedures. No sedative or anaesthetic. Just a tube stuck up your nose and into your throat. You vomit blood. This is torture. What has the British Foreign Secretary said about this? Nothing. What has the British Prime Minister said about this? Nothing. Why not? Because the United States has said: to criticise our conduct in Guantanamo Bay constitutes an unfriendly act. You're either with us or against us. So Blair shuts up.

The invasion of Iraq was a bandit act, an act of blatant state terrorism, demonstrating absolute contempt for the concept of international law. The invasion was an arbitrary military action inspired by a series of lies upon lies and gross manipulation of the media and therefore of the public; an act intended to consolidate American military and economic control of the Middle East masquerading – as a last resort – all other justifications having failed to justify themselves – as liberation. A formidable assertion of military force responsible for the death and mutilation of thousands and thousands of innocent people.

We have brought torture, cluster bombs, depleted uranium, innumerable acts of random murder, misery, degradation and death to the Iraqi people and call it 'bringing freedom and democracy to the Middle East'.

How many people do you have to kill before you qualify to be described as a mass murderer and a war criminal? One hundred thousand? More than enough, I would have thought. Therefore it is just that Bush and Blair be arraigned before the International Criminal Court of Justice. But Bush has been clever. He has not ratified the International Criminal Court of Justice. Therefore if any American soldier or for that matter politician finds himself in the dock Bush has warned that he will send in the marines. But Tony Blair has ratified the Court and is therefore available for prosecution. We can let the Court have his address if they're interested. It is Number 10, Downing Street, London.

Death in this context is irrelevant. Both Bush and Blair place death well away on the back burner. At least 100,000 Iraqis were killed by American bombs and missiles before the Iraq insurgency began. These people are of no moment. Their deaths don't exist. They are blank. They are not even recorded as being dead. 'We don't do body counts,' said the American general Tommy Franks.

Early in the invasion there was a photograph published on the front page of British newspapers of Tony Blair kissing the cheek of a little Iraqi boy. 'A grateful child,' said the caption. A few days later there was a story and photograph, on an inside page, of another four-year-old boy with no arms. His family had been blown up by a missile. He was the only survivor. 'When do I get my arms back?' he asked. The story was dropped. Well, Tony Blair wasn't holding him in his arms, nor the body of any other mutilated child, nor the body of any bloody corpse. Blood is dirty. It dirties your shirt and tie when you're making a sincere speech on television.

The 2,000 American dead are an embarrassment. They are transported to their graves in the dark. Funerals are unobtrusive, out of harm's way. The mutilated rot in their beds, some for the rest of their lives. So the dead and the mutilated both rot, in different kinds of graves.

In reply to:
I have said earlier that the United States is now totally frank about putting its cards on the table. That is the case. Its official declared policy is now defined as 'full spectrum dominance'. That is not my term, it is theirs. 'Full spectrum dominance' means control of land, sea, air and space and all attendant resources.

The United States now occupies 702 military installations throughout the world in 132 countries, with the honourable exception of Sweden, of course. We don't quite know how they got there but they are there all right.

The United States possesses 8,000 active and operational nuclear warheads. Two thousand are on hair trigger alert, ready to be launched with 15 minutes warning. It is developing new systems of nuclear force, known as bunker busters. The British, ever cooperative, are intending to replace their own nuclear missile, Trident. Who, I wonder, are they aiming at? Osama bin Laden? You? Me? Joe Dokes? China? Paris? Who knows? What we do know is that this infantile insanity – the possession and threatened use of nuclear weapons – is at the heart of present American political philosophy. We must remind ourselves that the United States is on a permanent military footing and shows no sign of relaxing it.

Many thousands, if not millions, of people in the United States itself are demonstrably sickened, shamed and angered by their government's actions, but as things stand they are not a coherent political force – yet. But the anxiety, uncertainty and fear which we can see growing daily in the United States is unlikely to diminish.

I know that President Bush has many extremely competent speech writers but I would like to volunteer for the job myself. I propose the following short address which he can make on television to the nation. I see him grave, hair carefully combed, serious, winning, sincere, often beguiling, sometimes employing a wry smile, curiously attractive, a man's man.

'God is good. God is great. God is good. My God is good. Bin Laden's God is bad. His is a bad God. Saddam's God was bad, except he didn't have one. He was a barbarian. We are not barbarians. We don't chop people's heads off. We believe in freedom. So does God. I am not a barbarian. I am the democratically elected leader of a freedom-loving democracy. We are a compassionate society. We give compassionate electrocution and compassionate lethal injection. We are a great nation. I am not a dictator. He is. I am not a barbarian. He is. And he is. They all are. I possess moral authority. You see this fist? This is my moral authority. And don't you forget it.'

first id like to hear your unbiased opinions on these excerpts of a speech. then ill post up who gave it.

and, no, it was not moore :P


blondgecko
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Dec 14, 2005, 10:57 AM
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Hear, hear.


Partner tisar


Dec 14, 2005, 2:36 PM
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Hmm. It might be a long read, it might be just one side of the medal and it might not please you... but it pretty much sums up what ROW (how I like this nice American abbrevation for 'rest of world') thinks and feels about the US. Hence worth reading I'd say.

- Daniel


madriver


Dec 14, 2005, 2:45 PM
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...yeah...


...we suck...the USA is the scourge of the world....we are the worst....we kill babies and women....we gas inocents...we drive SUV's...

whats new....?


wjca


Dec 14, 2005, 2:52 PM
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So America is evil and America does nothing good in the world? Google search "US Foreign Aid", do some research, then post back up and tell me how and when Slovenia and Australia intend on repaying the United States for all the "bad" foreign aid we've given you. Those are my tax dollars, for which I work my ass off.

It makes me sick to my stomach to hear all the people around the globe saying "please help us out", accepting our help, then saying "Fuck you America. You are evil." The American government may not make the best decisions all the time, but we are not evil. Once you actually do a little research and discover how much we do help around the globe, and you still think we're evil, you can say no thank you next time instead of holding your hand out while looking the other way.

I'm offended at the quote posted by overlord. I don't care who wrote it.

Chris


madriver


Dec 14, 2005, 2:54 PM
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...oh yeah..


herin lies the telling paragraph of the whole boring rant.....




In reply to:
Many thousands, if not millions, of people in the United States itself are demonstrably sickened, shamed and angered by their government's actions, but as things stand they are not a coherent political force – yet. But the anxiety, uncertainty and fear which we can see growing daily in the United States is unlikely to diminish.


...you see the difference between us (the Evil Empire) and the rest of the cruel world is just that....we can dissent and critisize our Governmant and live to tell about it....


love
S. Rushdie


boondock_saint


Dec 14, 2005, 3:02 PM
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I think the overall ratio of how much "good" we do in the world and how much evil we do to sustain our lifestyle is slightly tipped in the scales of evil. It's been better at some times and worse during others. We're not the worst country, but we're far from being angels as well. Our current adminstration and its based on fanatic religious beliefs. How does this make us different from the Taliban where the leader gets picked because of his faith?


Partner bill


Dec 14, 2005, 3:04 PM
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In reply to:
...you see the difference between us (the Evil Empire) and the rest of the cruel world is just that....we can dissent and critisize our Governmant and live to tell about it....


love
S. Rushdie

Of course, as Mr. Rushdie learned, it's really no fun to be critical of nations and groups that might not appreciate it, and might actually do something to shut you up. Why do you think the USA and Israel get loads of faux moral outrage from Europe while nations like Iran get a free pass.


Partner booger


Dec 14, 2005, 3:08 PM
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Hey chris and others. I don't think overlord was trying to say any such thing. I think he was just presenting an article for discussion. Discussion is always good, a chance to hear other folks opinions. Especially in an international forum where we have shared interests to keep us friendly despite our political leanings.

I would be very curious to hear who wrote this, overlord!

It is true that the US provides a great deal of foreign aid, but most of that foreign aid is a bandaid. A great deal of it ends up in pockets that are already dripping with money. And a lot of it wouldn't be necessary if we were less irresponsible in the way we deal with the rest of the world.

By the way, I am an expat American who loves my country (but hates its government). :wink:


overlord


Dec 14, 2005, 3:09 PM
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the quote is not about USA, its about its government. and i agree that its onesided.

and i can criticize my government and live to tell about it... wich is not the case all the time in the usa, especially not after 911. if youre not with us, youre against us and stuff like that.


Partner tisar


Dec 14, 2005, 3:21 PM
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In reply to:
Why do you think the USA and Israel get loads of faux moral outrage from Europe while nations like Iran get a free pass.

It's not about 'evil' nation or 'good' nation. It's about critisizing and being able to take critique when it applies. Opening a bill in the 'but we did good things also' style doesn't make the bad things better or unforgiven. Nor does the mentioning of any other state's evil practices.

- Daniel


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Dec 14, 2005, 3:21 PM
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I too can criticise my government with impunity.

However, just look what happens when someone criticises the US government...


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Dec 14, 2005, 3:24 PM
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In reply to:
Hmm. It might be a long read, it might be just one side of the medal and it might not please you... but it pretty much sums up what ROW (how I like this nice American abbrevation for 'rest of world') thinks and feels about the US. Hence worth reading I'd say.

- Daniel

I'm American, have been my whole life :wink:, and I've never heard or read that abbreviation until now.

I can agree to a point that American foriegn policy has created a mound of shite in the world, but that speech draws the entire country as a pretty one-dimensional character in bad political fiction. If the truth about America were that simple, there would be no problem. We are as complex as any other group of people... sometimes indifferent, sometimes angry, sometimes righteous and sometimes wrong. But collectively, we are also helpful, kind, considerate, compassionate and sometimes even affectionate. I venture a theory that the good America has brought the world in the 229 1/2 years since declaring itself independent still outweighs the bad it has wrought by an indescribably significant amount.

In short... I see your Saddam and raise you a Hitler. I see your Noriega and raise you a Milosevic.


thorne
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Dec 14, 2005, 3:36 PM
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I too can criticise my government with impunity.

However, just look what happens when someone criticises the US government...

There's a backlash???

Free speech cuts both ways. :wink:


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Dec 14, 2005, 3:38 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Why do you think the USA and Israel get loads of faux moral outrage from Europe while nations like Iran get a free pass.

It's not about 'evil' nation or 'good' nation. It's about critisizing and being able to take critique when it applies. Opening a bill in the 'but we did good things also' style doesn't make the bad things better or unforgiven. Nor does the mentioning of any other state's evil practices.

- Daniel

If you expect to be taken seriously there has to be a least a thin veneer of objectivity to your criticism. If it consistenty lands on one target at the exclusion of all others, I'd venture to say it's no longer valid criticism and has mutated into agenda driven ideology.


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Dec 14, 2005, 3:41 PM
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In reply to:
If it consistenty lands on one target at the exclusion of all others, I'd venture to say it's no longer valid criticism and has mutated into agenda driven ideology.

Again, in what way does anyone else's guilt change or mollify the USA's guilt?

Why is anyone else's guilt even relevant?

Is this the "other people do bad things too" defense?


madriver


Dec 14, 2005, 3:42 PM
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I'm seriously thinking of moving to Canada......the bastards up there never get this kinda crap....I wonder why?


Partner tisar


Dec 14, 2005, 4:01 PM
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If you expect to be taken seriously there has to be a least a thin veneer of objectivity to your criticism. If it consistenty lands on one target at the exclusion of all others, I'd venture to say it's no longer valid criticism and has mutated into agenda driven ideology.

I didn't even write the slightest comment about what I think till now. All I said by now was that I think the article is worth reading.

In reply to:
I can agree to a point that American foriegn policy has created a mound of s--- in the world, but that speech draws the entire country as a pretty one-dimensional character in bad political fiction. If the truth about America were that simple, there would be no problem. We are as complex as any other group of people... sometimes indifferent, sometimes angry, sometimes righteous and sometimes wrong. But collectively, we are also helpful, kind, considerate, compassionate and sometimes even affectionate.

You won't get far if you mix up US whatever policy and 'we' in this case. A person has every right to be angry, righteous and wrong. A state/government as such has not.

In reply to:
I venture a theory that the good America has brought the world in the 229 1/2 years since declaring itself independent still outweighs the bad it has wrought by an indescribably significant amount.

This summary might be pretty subjective. I myself owe a lot of if not my entire life to the fact that some time ago America helped to get rid of the meanest asshole sun ever has seen. Many other peolple still suffer day by day because of the same government. I don't think this is to be add up.

- Daniel


reno


Dec 14, 2005, 5:50 PM
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It's an ILLEGAL war for OIL! NO WAR FOR OIL!!!

(What? The price of oil hasn't dropped since the war? So it's NOT for oil? Shit.)

Bush LIED! No WMDs found!

(What? Sadaam did have, and has used, repeatedly, WMDs? Shit.)

It's ABSURD to think that Iraq will ever have elections! No War for Freedom!!!

(What? They did have elections? Three times you say? Shit.)

If there are elections, they will be bloody and voilent! No War for Violent Elections!

(Oh, don't tell me... the elections were remarkably free from violence? You're not helping me here.)

We are America, and we're all EVIL! Death to America!

(There, that ought to shut them up.)

*shrug*

I think the essay posted above is very narrow minded, myopic, and a weak rehash of the events. But I'm not an overly educated elitist liberal, and thus not capable of understanding such prose. Hell, I'm still working on that second "Hukt on Foniks" tape.


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Dec 14, 2005, 6:23 PM
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In reply to:
Opening a bill in the 'but we did good things also' style doesn't make the bad things better or unforgiven. Nor does the mentioning of any other state's evil practices.

Very true, which is why those of us who want to affect change vote in every election and protest and write letters when we disagree with what our representatives do.


overlord


Dec 14, 2005, 7:26 PM
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I would be very curious to hear who wrote this, overlord!

It is true that the US provides a great deal of foreign aid, but most of that foreign aid is a bandaid. A great deal of it ends up in pockets that are already dripping with money. And a lot of it wouldn't be necessary if we were less irresponsible in the way we deal with the rest of the world.

By the way, I am an expat American who loves my country (but hates its government). :wink:

it was the noble lecture of harold pinter, this years literature nobel prize winner.

heres the link:
http://nobelprize.org/...inter-lecture-e.html

In reply to:
It's an ILLEGAL war for OIL! NO WAR FOR OIL!!!

(What? The price of oil hasn't dropped since the war? So it's NOT for oil? s---.)

just guessing here... the fields have been secured, but no the facilities to extract and transport the oil. so no influx of oil from iraq yet. thus the prices remain the same.

and the speech, if you read it, isnt only about iraq.


thorne
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I venture a theory that the good America has brought the world in the 229 1/2 years since declaring itself independent still outweighs the bad it has wrought by an indescribably significant amount.

This summary might be pretty subjective. I myself owe a lot of if not my entire life to the fact that some time ago America helped to get rid of the meanest asshole sun ever has seen. Many other peolple still suffer day by day because of the same government. I don't think this is to be add up.

- Daniel

Anyone else notice that this guy is in Germany? LOL


remi


Dec 14, 2005, 7:37 PM
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In regards to oil I think the point is to have control of the oil, not necessarily to lower prices or anything. But the US is now sitting on top of some of the largest reserves in the world...but of course when the democratically elected shia gov't tells em to f$%^ back to Iowa I'm sure they'll leave no problem :lol:


arrettinator


Dec 14, 2005, 9:13 PM
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In reply to:
It's an ILLEGAL war for OIL! NO WAR FOR OIL!!!

(What? The price of oil hasn't dropped since the war? So it's NOT for oil? s---.)

Bush LIED! No WMDs found!

(What? Sadaam did have, and has used, repeatedly, WMDs? s---.)

It's ABSURD to think that Iraq will ever have elections! No War for Freedom!!!

(What? They did have elections? Three times you say? s---.)

If there are elections, they will be bloody and voilent! No War for Violent Elections!

(Oh, don't tell me... the elections were remarkably free from violence? You're not helping me here.)

We are America, and we're all EVIL! Death to America!

(There, that ought to shut them up.)

*shrug*

I think the essay posted above is very narrow minded, myopic, and a weak rehash of the events. But I'm not an overly educated elitist liberal, and thus not capable of understanding such prose. Hell, I'm still working on that second "Hukt on Foniks" tape.
???
I'm trying to make sense of your post, considering the randomness of the content.
The essay? Which essay?
How does oil fit in here, or Iraqi elections?
Is this just some junk email you got today?
Is it better to be an under-educated elitist conservative?


In regards to the original post, I find it interesting that Bush came out today and took responsibility for the "wrong" intelligence that led to the war.
http://www.cnn.com/...bush.iraq/index.html


theman


Dec 14, 2005, 9:29 PM
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i love how everyone has an excuse or blame for everything that happens, as if they ran the country everything would be perfect.

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