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dirtineye
Dec 25, 2005, 7:23 AM
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Hey when gym rats venture outside, the pic is just what happens. And the response to being told they are in error is often the same as well.
We southerners are inbred, rednecked, and proud of it. Aint nothin better in life than bein a cracker.
OK Curt, I still say a grommet might be quite useful when used as intended.
REmember the group I reported you to?
the
Fulfillment and
Admiration of
Grommets
Society
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brutusofwyde
Dec 25, 2005, 9:02 AM
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Everyone dies eventually.
As far as using a locking carabiner for a tie-in, there is a time and a place for it.
Don't believe me? Read the account of the first one-day ascent of the Nose by John Long, Billy Westbay and Jim Bridwell.
Just a thought.
Brutus
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holdplease2
Dec 25, 2005, 5:59 PM
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Good point, Brutus, however...
The time and the place for tying in with a single carabiner is when you know enough to understand the potential risks, make the judgement call, then make the best decision for you.
I would argue that it is not on your first trad lead when you are making a mistake bacause you don't know any better.
This is not the only photo on RC.com with a new climber tied in with a carabiner at the base of a crag.
-Kate.
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g
Deleted
Dec 25, 2005, 6:30 PM
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In reply to: [No *real* guide would use two lockers.
In reply to: The time and the place for tying in with a single carabiner is when you know enough to understand the potential risks, make the judgment call, then make the best decision for you. |
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saxfiend
Dec 25, 2005, 6:35 PM
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From tharealtn's profile:
In reply to: I know the Cherokee Bluffs pretty well, so if anyone wants to climb there but dosn't know much about it I'd be willing to take them around.
Haha, the blind leading the blind, indeed! Go to Cherokee Bluffs and hook up with the Gumby Guide Service. Or just stay home and play Russian Roulette.
JL
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radistrad
Dec 25, 2005, 6:40 PM
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Typically a guide will clip in the second with two opposed locking 'biners on multipitch routes. Why you ask? because it is far more efficent for the guide to do all the leading that way, it is easier to change rope ends instead of re-piling the rope at each belay, so the guide will also tie with with two opposed locking 'biners.
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jred
Dec 25, 2005, 6:54 PM
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Grommets are the metal rings that your shoe laces pass through.
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cintune
Dec 25, 2005, 6:58 PM
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Using lockers on a belay loop is a subject for endless safety-geek debate, but it's obviously the backclipping that'll do him in a lot quicker and with infinitely more certainty. Better yet, a string of backclips; Falling... click... click... click... click... kersplat. Jeez.
Merry Christmas everyone.
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anykineclimb
Dec 25, 2005, 7:09 PM
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I've always used "Grom" for boys and "Gromet(te)" for girls.
never derogatory, just for young surfer kids.
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iamcolinslack
Dec 25, 2005, 7:14 PM
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ahahaha i love this fucking thread!!! Internet bashing is the greatest and gymrat bashing is even better!!
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leapinlizard
Dec 25, 2005, 7:17 PM
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I have been climbing since '93, and through most of the time I have climbed I have clipped a locking biner most of the time. Recently I have decided to start tying in more than clipping. I have done this as to set a good example for others more than myself. Its not that I don't believe that it is safer to tie in, but that I don't always feel that the extra level of safety offered by tying is always worth the effort. I realize that it doesn't take hardly any extra time to tie in rather clip, but if I am leading a climb that I solo on a regular basis, or I am on toprope, or even if the chance of a long fall isn't that great, I usually still clip in. That being said, I agree with teh previous post that the backwards clip would be more dangerous to this climber than his tie in configuration. I also have to say that the fact that he is a new climber and on a route I am sure he has a chance of falling on should lend to him tying in rather than clipping. Obviously, this climber needs some helping advice, but it seems his imaturity has blocked it. Cheers
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ninja_climber
Dec 25, 2005, 7:36 PM
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This is the reason why people think teenagers my age can only boulder...
There's not point in complaining though, cuz eventually he's going to fall on some random back-clipped draw and then were not gonna get anymore pictures...
He should take lessons when he gets down...
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kman
Dec 25, 2005, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: Its not that I don't believe that it is safer to tie in, but that I don't always feel that the extra level of safety offered by tying is always worth the effort.
Which makes you lazy. The time difference between clipping in and tying in is very very tiny.
The issue is that this guy is new. He is learning 2 bad habits right from the first lead. Clipping in to 1 biner on lead (he is not top roping) is plain laziness...or in his case ignorant. There may be a time and place but this is definately not it.
It's not the fault of the guy climbing. It's the fault of the poster. One of the first things you (should) learn when you start leading is not to backclip. It should have been noticed and fixed before the guy continued his climb.
Break the chain of bad habits before you start. Due to learning from an idiot this guy is already learning bad habits right from the get go. God knows what other bad habits he has learned from this fool. The thing is he (the climber) does not know better. If no one points this out to him and he ends up teaching some one else ........
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leezerdgirl
Dec 25, 2005, 8:39 PM
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Not to get too mediator-ish on you all, but hey, it's what I do for a living. The original exchange is a classic case of conflict escalation. Notice that things were pretty civil until the use of lots of capital letters, exclamation points, and the first personal insult. Up until that point the teenager in question might have been willing to listen. After that point, it became an attack-defend-counterattack cycle. No offense to Kman, by the way. It's easy to get agitated when you see people doing dangerous things and taking it lightly.
I thought that foxtrot's second post in this thread was a good example of how to calmly explain the dangers, hopefully without getting dude's back up. Yes, there's a time and a place for upping the emotional threat level in order to get someone's attention, but it's a big gun that you'll usually be better off holding in reserve. As a general rule, most people don't learn well when they feel humiliated.
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erclimb
Dec 25, 2005, 11:30 PM
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actually, he's correct, as in "this is how we get bad reputations"...it wouldn't make sense to say "this is how us get bad reputations"...
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hosh
Dec 26, 2005, 12:12 AM
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Was the kid belaying or taking pictures?
hosh.
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flexdex
Dec 26, 2005, 12:17 AM
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Nobody noticed that on the first draw the biner gates are orinated the same way but the draw sling is twisted, pffft. Come on people where is the attention to detail.
Question ... would it still be back clipped if he climbed to the left instead of the right, then traversed right on the second clip?
Back to thread stalking from the back woods.
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roseraie
Dec 26, 2005, 12:21 AM
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In reply to: Nobody noticed that on the first draw the biner gates are orinated the same way but the draw sling is twisted, pffft. Come on people where is the attention to detail. Question ... would it still be back clipped if he climbed to the left instead of the right, then traversed right on the second clip? Back to thread stalking from the back woods.
We did notice, that's how we knew it was backclipped. When you move above a backclipped draw, that's what it looks like. Backclipped means that the end of the rope leading to the climber is facing down out of the carabiner before it twists around... so whichever way you moved past it, it would still be backclipped. Sorry, I'm not very good at explaining this stuff.
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flexdex
Dec 26, 2005, 12:23 AM
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In reply to: Notice that things were pretty civil until the use of lots of capital letters, exclamation points, and the first personal insult. Up until that point the teenager in question might have been willing to listen.
I am going to thread jack. Out of curousitiy(ps cause I am from the back woods I spell bad and my eglish is even badder:)), how many studies have been done on this. How has our, i.e societies, reactions changed due to chatting/posting. I never thought people were all that hostile till reading posts. The art of conveying expression on the net will be the next art form.
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tradrenn
Dec 26, 2005, 12:30 AM
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In reply to: Nobody noticed that on the first draw the biner gates are orinated the same way but the draw sling is twisted, pffft. Come on people where is the attention to detail.
In previous post others have notice that so "wake up " man.
It's not like you can see how other draws are clipped.
In reply to: Question ... would it still be back clipped if he climbed to the left instead of the right, then traversed right on the second clip?
Yes, ones the draw is back clipped it is back clipped no matter if you go to the left or right.
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flexdex
Dec 26, 2005, 1:36 AM
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Okay I conceded it was a trick question. The gates facing each other doesn't make a difference. This has been a comment I have seen in the past and just love bringing it up.
Note: Twisted draws didnt always indicate backclipling, this will only occur if there is rope drag.
Any body else have issues with Petzls tech man's in their catalogs just showing picks. I think this creates a false sense of knowledge.
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leezerdgirl
Dec 26, 2005, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Notice that things were pretty civil until the use of lots of capital letters, exclamation points, and the first personal insult. Up until that point the teenager in question might have been willing to listen. I am going to thread jack. Out of curousitiy(ps cause I am from the back woods I spell bad and my eglish is even badder:)), how many studies have been done on this. How has our, i.e societies, reactions changed due to chatting/posting. I never thought people were all that hostile till reading posts. The art of conveying expression on the net will be the next art form.
It's not my specialty, but a good search for academic papers on "netiquette" would turn up thousands of studies. One main theme you'll find (which is common knowledge by now) is that the anonymity and immediate action-reaction of the internet can lead people to be less polite and thoughtful than they would be in person. The limited social context and lack of non-verbal cues can also lead to harsher conversations. This is why smileys are so popular...they are one technological part of that art form you're talking about, a way to say "just kidding" or "I'm nice, really I am" when your words could be misinterpreted.
In general though, I would argue that how people react to hostility (or what we think is hostility) hasn't changed much. We still get hurt and self-righteous and defensive, just as we do in person. It's just more exposed and raw--and sometimes permanently preserved--online.
Incidentally, I think web culture has been evolving in the opposite direction from the "flame wars" of the 80s and 90s. Now with blogs and social networking sites, it's common to see sites where only supportive, complimentary conversations are allowed, and any criticism at all is immediately stamped out by loyal friends coming to the original poster's defense. It's a very feel-good culture, and I'm not sure it's any healthier--it's too far in the opposite direction.
Curiously, rockclimbing.com seems to be a hold-out from that feel-good social site trend. People here are harsher than any other site I frequent. I wonder why that is? Is "tough love" necessary because our sport is so dangerous? Or maybe it's just because of all the testosterone? Not that I'm dissing testosterone mind you...I love a good sweaty, jacked-up climber guy as much as the next climber girl. :)
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ajkclay
Dec 26, 2005, 2:53 AM
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Please take this in the manner in which it is intended;
While there seems to be a great deal of certainty out there that backclipping = death if fallen on, does anyone really know this for sure?
The reason I ask is this:
I understand the theory behind the concern. And I avoid backclipping at all costs as it does provide for the possibility for mishap, BUT: Does anyone here know firsthand (not this guy I knew said his friend saw it happen once) of any deaths caused by backclipping, or even an unlcip occurring?
My friends and I tried to make a backclipped quickdraw unclip and just could not do it. We tried falling from every conceivable angle and level of height above the 'draw and each and every time it just twisted (as seen in the pic in the OP) around the right way. We tried jamming the 'biner so it could not orient, still no "luck," we tried all sorts of things and no matter how much we actually tried to make it unclip the bugger just would not do it.
The science and reasoning behind PETZL's warning is good advice and should be heeded, and I do not for one moment suggest leading and paying no mind to backclipping, but rather than just following the party line I think that maybe we need to stop the "The sky is falling" mentality with it.
Cheers,
Adam
Disclaimer: Backcipping is very dangerous, and should never be done. If you backclip something very bad will happen to you within two days. A man from Queensland backclipped and one day later his dog died. Another lady backclipped and one of her ancestors caught Bubonic Plague retrospectively. Send this message to ten friends immediately and you will get a phone call within 12 hours of clicking the send button, it's amazing, but true!
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mcgivney_nh
Dec 26, 2005, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: wow, this is how we teenagers get bad reputations... -Sean erm, don't you mean "us teenagers"? Or, "this is how we, teenagers, get bad reputations." :wink:
...Yes
:lol: :oops: :lol:
-Sean
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brutusofwyde
Dec 26, 2005, 3:35 AM
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In reply to: While there seems to be a great deal of certainty out there that backclipping = death if fallen on, does anyone really know this for sure?
I'm not dead, but way back in the day I had a backclipped carabiner unclip from the rope as I fell off a short climb in Josh.
Backclipping does not mean certain death any more than taking your brake hand off the rope while belaying, getting a late start on long a climb in an area with a current afternoon thunderstorm pattern, walking unroped up an Alaskan glacier in May, getting distracted whilst tying in and not finishing your tie-in knot, climbing in the California Minarets without a helmet, or climbing on a rope with a core shot.
And Kate -- I fully agree that an informed decision and a conscious, knowledgeable assessment of the risks is critical in deciding when, where and why to use a specific technique. Much of the game of climbing is abouty risk management. I was simply pointing out that the dogmatic responses I was reading in the thread demonstrated an only slightly higher level of awareness than that shown by the person being (perhaps justifiably) smacked down.
FWIW, as I recall, the Nose-in-a-day team actually used two locking carabiners for each tie-in, the risk management philosophy being that they were leading in blocks, swapping rope ends repeatedly, and clipping and unclipping to do so was not only much faster, but safer considering the number of times they whould be swapping rope ends.
Brutus
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