|
|
|
|
johnhenry
Jul 26, 2004, 2:50 AM
Post #51 of 105
(17932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 202
|
I think rushnomore has some valid points here (but cheers to Travis for raising the subject)....
We are really talking about several different issues that should'nt be confused:
#1 dynamic belay for reducing forces on the climber and protection
#2 handling rope in a dynamic fashion in order to create a better fall
In the case of #1, in my opinion a Screamer (or the reusable equivalent) is almost always a better solution. In the case of #2, jumping, running, or playing out rope may have some usefulness in somewhat limited situations.
I have been climbing for a long time now, but you all must have much better reaction times than me. The timing of a jump is critical to its effectiveness. Maybe if you are hangdogging the same moves, you could get the sequence just right. Incidentally, a Screamer will actually give you more time to react as well.
Most of the slabs I climb end in big talus fields, so I don't forsee running too often. What happens if you run too far or too fast? That would'nt be pretty. People often misjudge the length on slabs. Sometimes slab falls can be almost slow motion.
Suppose the leader catches hold on the way down ( I have), only to have a belayer yard him or her off by running like Jesse Owens... That sounds like a nice dislocation/ upsidedown-headfirst (maybe tumbling) fall. I just think that falling correctly on a slab is going to be a much better saving-grace. I have seen several people take 30+foot slab falls and were not much worse for wear. You might just as easily break your ankle running along the base of a climb as injure it in a slab fall.
These seem like mostly cragging techniques. I would say that more than half the time I climb, I am either at a hanging belay or I can't see the leader.
Aid falls usually occur without any warning whatsoever. So gri gri`s and Screamers are the way to go IMHO.
Anyhow, just my thoughts. Not trying to be combative. Off to Thailand in just a few short hours...
rock on,
john
|
|
|
|
|
nirvana
Jul 26, 2004, 3:05 AM
Post #52 of 105
(17932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2004
Posts: 138
|
In reply to: The force that it takes to activate a screamer is usually higher than the force it would take to pull a belayer off of the ground.
When I'm belaying, I anchor in and leave some slack between my harness and the anchor. Since I am pretty light, on falls I generally fly up a bit. Sometimes a good bit. I wonder if this isn't somewhat akin to a dynamic belay--as I'm not offering solid resistance when the lead hits the end of the fall. Or am I not thinking about this correctly? I am reluctant to jump, 'cause my ability to counterbalance my BF's weight is rather sketchy to begin with.
|
|
|
|
|
dontjinxme
Jul 26, 2004, 3:44 AM
Post #53 of 105
(17932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 18, 2003
Posts: 109
|
I hate to beat a dead horse. But it was an awesome horse.
Excellent "Post" very well written and very informative.
I think your kitten needs to run a little faster.
|
|
|
|
|
tech_dog
Jul 26, 2004, 4:50 AM
Post #54 of 105
(17932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 224
|
If I fall, I only want my belayer thinking about one thing, and that one thing is to hold the brake hand side of the rope as tight as friggen hell.
If I fall hard enough to warrant a jump, the belayer is gonna jump whether he likes it or not. If I can't pull him off the ground, it's not a hard fall.
The last thing I want is my belayer dancing around with other things on his mind. Just hold the friggin rope no matter what.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 26, 2004, 4:53 AM
Post #55 of 105
(17932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: If I fall, I only want my belayer thinking about one thing, and that one thing is to hold the brake hand side of the rope as tight as friggen hell. If I fall hard enough to warrant a jump, the belayer is gonna jump whether he likes it or not. If I can't pull him off the ground, it's not a hard fall. The last thing I want is my belayer dancing around with other things on his mind. Just hold the friggin rope no matter what.
You might want to reconsider your beliefs. I have $20,000 worth of doctor bills that says you're wrong.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
lv2climb7
Jul 26, 2004, 5:21 AM
Post #56 of 105
(17932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 21, 2004
Posts: 164
|
Good info~ Thanks! you're totally right about the way that gyms teach you and the way that you should really be doing it. I remember learning to belay in a gym with a gri gri and they tought me to just pul the rope let go of it and move my hand back closer to the device :shock: I ended up learning from a guy at our local crag how to belay correctly. :D
|
|
|
|
|
verticalturtle
Nov 1, 2005, 1:53 AM
Post #57 of 105
(17932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 53
|
Thanks for the info as this has cleared up some strange things for me.
I'm neither old nor ignorant, but in the 11 years I've climbed I have rarely been in the situation where I wanted a dynamic belay. When the thought did cross my mind, the second idea would be, "gee, would the person screw it up?" If you've read much of this thread it should be clear that there is technique involved. Also the thing that precititated my concern was manky pro. RPs and ice screws can benefit from softer catches. Ergo, I own screamers.
Then I move out here to the midwest, and the closest climbing is a gym and then the Red. The locals all have the idea that a dynamic belay is the way to go. I'm thinkin WTF!? Why? There's bolt in an I beam holding me not a manky RP. "Well", they say, "You could swing into the rock and break something!" Gee, I thought, that's why I pay attention to where I'm gonna fall so I can plan for it if it happens.
I never really did much sport climbing till the past year. When I began it was thin and technical rather than steep and overhung. I never really had to worry about slamming back into the wall and breaking an ankle because I wasn't doing steep routes. When I did the belayer had sufficient slack (not a lot, just sufficient) that I never swung. I was more worried about breaking something from hitting 1) the ground, or 2) a ledge. If I did worrk about a swing it was from a pendulum that would result from a traverse fall. Thankfully I have not had to deal with many.
I guess the point is that, I never considered dynamic belays because I was rarely in a position to need them. I still think I'd be afraid to get a dynamic belay from a noob though. Perhaps that's my faith in the ability of others slipping instead of the rope.
VT
|
|
|
|
|
tinnchris
Jan 18, 2006, 7:59 PM
Post #58 of 105
(17932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2004
Posts: 13
|
My climbing partner is 60-65lbs lighter than I am. I have JUST begun leading and have yet to fall. I am a bit nervous to find out what will happen when I do. I have lifted her off the ground slightly while falling on top rope, so I am sure falling on lead will drag her upwards in a hurry! Would a dynamic belay on her part be the right thing to do in our case? I understand the physics behind jumping and how it softens my impact, but I also don't want to be able to kiss her as she whips pass me either! Any thoughts??
|
|
|
|
|
acacongua
Jan 18, 2006, 8:36 PM
Post #59 of 105
(17932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 657
|
If you push off when you fall and you hit the wall, blame yourself - not your belayer.
|
|
|
|
|
4togo
Jan 18, 2006, 9:29 PM
Post #60 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2005
Posts: 134
|
In reply to: My climbing partner is 60-65lbs lighter than I am. I have JUST begun leading and have yet to fall. I am a bit nervous to find out what will happen when I do. I have lifted her off the ground slightly while falling on top rope, so I am sure falling on lead will drag her upwards in a hurry! Would a dynamic belay on her part be the right thing to do in our case? I understand the physics behind jumping and how it softens my impact, but I also don't want to be able to kiss her as she whips pass me either! Any thoughts??
Tinnchris,
I used to climb with a man that outweighed me by about the same amount. If she's on top of things and knows what she's doing, she can certainly give you a safe lead belay. However it's important that she does a number of things right, including where she stands, so on.
I'd suggest getting someone who knows what they're doing to give you both some guidance in person. Set up a safe situation (overhanging wall in a gym?) so that you can learn how to fall (please tell me that you know not to let the rope behind your leg, so forth) and she can learn how to give you a soft catch without getting slammed around.
Key is practice in a controlled environment, with proper guidance, so that you both know what's going on.
Lisa
|
|
|
|
|
4togo
Jan 18, 2006, 9:33 PM
Post #61 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2005
Posts: 134
|
In reply to: I guess the point is that, I never considered dynamic belays because I was rarely in a position to need them. I still think I'd be afraid to get a dynamic belay from a noob though. Perhaps that's my faith in the ability of others slipping instead of the rope.
Sometimes a dynamic belay is appropriate, sometimes they're not. Takes judgement/experience which as a rule noobs don't have.
However they are really nice in the appropriate situation.
|
|
|
|
|
catbird_seat
Jan 19, 2006, 12:18 AM
Post #62 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2004
Posts: 425
|
In reply to: My climbing partner is 60-65lbs lighter than I am. I have JUST begun leading and have yet to fall. I am a bit nervous to find out what will happen when I do. I have lifted her off the ground slightly while falling on top rope, so I am sure falling on lead will drag her upwards in a hurry! Would a dynamic belay on her part be the right thing to do in our case? I understand the physics behind jumping and how it softens my impact, but I also don't want to be able to kiss her as she whips pass me either! Any thoughts?? |
|
|
|
|
nola_angie
Jan 22, 2006, 8:13 AM
Post #63 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 1, 2005
Posts: 265
|
my climber outweighs me by 50 lbs. I already took a 10 ft. fall and jammed my ankle up. (a big part of it was me popping off the wall a bit to avoid slamming a knee into the jug below me!). The instructor said 2 things-dynamic belay would have leasend the ankle torque, and don't hop off the wall like that.
I'm pretty frightened of Jim peeling off hard. We don't tie down in our gym, and I'm kinda horrified as to getting whipped into the wall and cracking a rib, or worse-smacking my head and loosing control of my break hand. We've agreed to a long webbing tie down when we head outside to lead. But what worries me is his delivery of a static belay that ends in a nice cracking sound from my ankles as I smack into the wall! We've been going back and forth on this all night, and he agrees to belay me however I want to be belayed- I dunno. And good citations from these studies to help me sway him and get him a little more....excited about it? he's pretty damn old school about it.
|
|
|
|
|
flyinglow
Jan 22, 2006, 2:59 PM
Post #64 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 11, 2005
Posts: 77
|
nola_angie, try standing near or directly under your climbers first pro when belaying. that way, if your climber falls you're pulled straight up instead of towards the wall. also, if you need to stand out a little, put your feet up in front of you when they fall so you hit feet first, just like rappelling. If you anchor down, and it's loose enough to allow a dynamic belay, it won't stop you from hitting the wall if you're in the right place to belay from anyway. relax and try some practice falls, just think about not only the climber, but what will happen to you when they fall. It's pretty predictable, and easy to deal with if you get in the habit of thinking about it beforehand.
|
|
|
|
|
daithi
Jan 22, 2006, 4:11 PM
Post #65 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2005
Posts: 397
|
In reply to: Since the time this thread started, the Italian study came out which showed that it is the belayer's hand strength which has the greatest influence on peak loads at the top piece of protection. That study showed that loads had already peaked by the time the belayer is lifted. It showed that smaller belayers tended to give softer catches.
Although you may not be able to reduce the force on the top piece (according to the Italians) by jumping, you still alter the trajectory of the falling climber by giving them more vertical distance to fall. It definitely alters the impact force they feel at the wall.
|
|
|
|
|
cjsimpso
Sep 16, 2006, 4:01 PM
Post #66 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 5, 2006
Posts: 253
|
*bump* for super useful information
|
|
|
|
|
bri1682
Sep 16, 2006, 6:39 PM
Post #67 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 107
|
This has been a really helpful post for those of us who are fairly new to climbing. Everyones comments and discussions of belay techniques has really made me reevaluate my belay technique.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
graniteplanet
Sep 16, 2006, 7:12 PM
Post #68 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2004
Posts: 54
|
This is a great post, dynamic belays are key and appropriatly using them is a skill that has many benifets. My local area has a number of roof routes, most routes skirt the roof but frequenty proceed to climb features above the roof. Recently I was belaying while my partner warmed up on one such route. He fell and as he did i realzed that a static belay would result in him kissing the lip of the roof and consuming vast quantities of teeth seasond with sandstone conglomerate. I gave him a dynamic belay so that he would clear the roof and stop short of the ground by about four feet. Had I just concentrated on keeping him away from the ground he would have had serious injuries.
|
|
|
|
|
tradrenn
Sep 24, 2006, 12:02 AM
Post #69 of 105
(17933 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
Bump
|
|
|
|
|
andrewbanandrew
Dec 4, 2007, 11:59 PM
Post #70 of 105
(8479 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 441
|
hate to bump this, but I read through the entire thread and I'm curious--does leaving extra slack out have the same effect as jumping as the rope becomes weighted? Or does it just lengthen the fall?
I was taught to give little slack near the ground (first or second bolt outside, third in the gym cos they're closer together) because the risk of decking is pretty high. But higher up I was taught to leave more slack out.
Recently when leading in the gym I caught a fall and my friend smacked his foot into the wall. I felt pretty bad and I think it's because I didn't give a dynamic enough belay. However last winter when we led in the gym frequently, this never happened--I'd always get sucked up about three feet and he never tapped the wall. Maybe I got fatter?
|
|
|
|
|
silascl
Dec 5, 2007, 12:58 AM
Post #71 of 105
(8445 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 225
|
andrewbanandrew wrote: hate to bump this, but I read through the entire thread and I'm curious--does leaving extra slack out have the same effect as jumping as the rope becomes weighted? Or does it just lengthen the fall? I was taught to give little slack near the ground (first or second bolt outside, third in the gym cos they're closer together) because the risk of decking is pretty high. But higher up I was taught to leave more slack out. Recently when leading in the gym I caught a fall and my friend smacked his foot into the wall. I felt pretty bad and I think it's because I didn't give a dynamic enough belay. However last winter when we led in the gym frequently, this never happened--I'd always get sucked up about three feet and he never tapped the wall. Maybe I got fatter?
The advice you heard is generally good, but it should always be applied to the specific situation. For instance, if they are right over a roof, you want to have enough slack out so that they don't hit the lip. If they're high on an extremely steep route, but are working the route, you may want to give them a slightly tighter belay than usual so that they don't fall out of reach of the rock/wall. But that is pretty generally good practice (close to the ground = less slack, higher up=more slack).
In the situation where your partner hit the wall hard, were you using the same belay device as in the past?
Was this route more circuitous, because the more the rope bends between you and the climber, the more friction, and the less you'll be pulled up during a fall.
|
|
|
|
|
chilli
Dec 5, 2007, 1:19 AM
Post #72 of 105
(8429 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2007
Posts: 401
|
nice advice tenn dawg. i'm all too familiar with the stone mountain running belay, and it does actually work pretty well there.
as far as the dynamic belay is concerned, i prefer to avoid that whole jumping technique, and remain anchored while belaying (i make sure my girlfriend does because she's lighter than me). instead we pay slack when a fall is taken from an overhang. it basically serves the same purpose as your 'jump technique' but keeps the belayer safely on the ground (or station), while still allowing for the trajectory shift to avoid nasty swing into rock. paying quick slack also works in many more versatile applications, so i like it. i would also assume that it may be possible, post-jump, for your belayer to wind up a little damaged upon a possible jerk or landing when trying to jump.
the thing about the technique we use is that you MUST have an experienced belayer to do it, who has practiced. you don't want some daisy-fresh belayer trying to do that and having their grip slip.
edit: spelling error
(This post was edited by chilli on Dec 5, 2007, 1:23 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
andrewbanandrew
Dec 5, 2007, 1:49 AM
Post #73 of 105
(8402 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 441
|
silascl wrote: The advice you heard is generally good, but it should always be applied to the specific situation. For instance, if they are right over a roof, you want to have enough slack out so that they don't hit the lip. If they're high on an extremely steep route, but are working the route, you may want to give them a slightly tighter belay than usual so that they don't fall out of reach of the rock/wall. But that is pretty generally good practice (close to the ground = less slack, higher up=more slack). In the situation where your partner hit the wall hard, were you using the same belay device as in the past? Was this route more circuitous, because the more the rope bends between you and the climber, the more friction, and the less you'll be pulled up during a fall.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I was using the same belay device. Maybe I had it loaded for high friction or something (it's a Trango Jaws). The route was actually kinda funky, it was in the gym and we don't set our routes with leading in mind (frustrating, I know--but only certain bolt holes are strong enough to hold falls). So all the draws were lined up to the left of where he was climbing, and he swung left into an arête.
I guess what I really want to hear are some examples of when it is appropriate to:
A) hop a little right when the leader weights the rope
B) leave more slack than 'normal'
C) do both
The roof-lip example makes total sense. I'm trying to figure out what would have prevented him from hitting the arête on his pendulum, or if it was just the nature of the route.
Actually the same day was the first time I'd ever slammed into the wall when he belayed me too, and he said it might be because he'd gotten out of the habit of hopping--it'd been a long time (okay, well, two months) since either of us had been leading consistently.
I think it was partially because the clip I fell on was at the start of a steeper section (a 'gentle roof' so to speak)--so I was throwing away from the wall to make the move, increasing the distance I would swing back into the wall. It also didn't help that the draw was not located in the middle of the steep section but at the start. But I also think he may be right on the hopping bit--we just don't know if it's only the hopping that would matter, or if he should've had more slack out too.
|
|
|
|
|
yokese
Dec 5, 2007, 1:54 AM
Post #74 of 105
(8489 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 18, 2006
Posts: 672
|
andrewbanandrew wrote: hate to bump this, but I read through the entire thread and I'm curious--does leaving extra slack out have the same effect as jumping as the rope becomes weighted? Or does it just lengthen the fall?
Interestingly, I just scrapped some numbers on a piece of paper and I got to the (possibly wrong) conclusion that leaving some slack will actually increase the impact factor of the fall. The only exception is when trying to avoid a factor 2 on multipitch routes.
Please, let me know if I'm wrong:
Being y the distance from the belayer to the last piece of protection and x the distance of the climber above the last protection:
FF1 = 2x / (x+y)
Now if we add some slack (s):
FF2 = (2x + s) / (x+y+s)
FF2 > FF1 except when 2x > x+y (which would be decking on a single pitch climb).
(This post was edited by yokese on Dec 5, 2007, 1:54 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
andrewbanandrew
Dec 5, 2007, 1:59 AM
Post #75 of 105
(8371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 441
|
Given that I am talking about sport climbing, I don't really care about the impact force so much as the potentially for smacking the wall. For a discussion of belaying a trad leader it would probably be important to consider, though.
I should've thought my question through better and just ask what I asked in my second post, which is basically how do you stop your leader from smacking into the wall? Obviously it varies on a case by case basis--falling on a steep route will be different than falling on a traversing route--but what are some good examples of typical scenarios encountered, and how do you mitigate the wall-smacking?
|
|
|
|
|
|
