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antigrav
Dec 25, 2005, 10:51 PM
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What do you think? Is redpointing a vital or significant part of training in order to progress through the grades in sport climbing?
The question arose because 1) when I thought about it, I realized that I don't actually do any redpointing at all. If I fall and I am unable to climb on after a couple of tries, I leave the route and pick another instead. Hangdogging is boring.
And 2) I've just started thinking a bit more seriously about maximizing training effect wrt. time spent on the wall, since I think I'm about to leave the "beginner's state" of "any climbing you do will benefit you"... (current onsight level around 5.10b in the sense that I think I can onsight 70% of these. It's a guesstimate.)
So, it would be nice to hear your opinions!
(PS. I guess what I'm wondering about is actually "is redpointing activity necessary/wise in order to get better at onsighting?")
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wzrdgandalf
Dec 25, 2005, 10:56 PM
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I think the signifigance of redpointing is to just put more moves into your muscle memory bank. By redpointing you get more and more experience where as when you quit you dont get the experience you need to progress. This is just the way i think of it.
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kalcario
Dec 25, 2005, 11:36 PM
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*Is redpointing a vital or significant part of training in order to progress through the grades in sport climbing?*
Redpointing isn't training - it's what you're training for. Training is running laps on routes for endurance, bouldering, lifting weights, cardio, etc. Hangdogging is boring compared to onsighting or redpointing, but really hangdogging is just bouldering with a rope on, except it's more challenging mentally and physically than bouldering because you're pumped, and taking falls on an actual climb tends to be scarier than when you're 8 feet off the deck with pads and spotters. Also hangdogging means you're still working the moves - if you're trying to redpoint, you don't hang and keep going when you fall, you lower to the ground and start over. You already know you can get to the anchors going bolt-to-bolt, so dogging's pointless.
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veganboyjosh
Dec 25, 2005, 11:43 PM
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In reply to: Redpointing isn't training - it's what you're training for. ... You already know you can get to the anchors going bolt-to-bolt, so dogging's pointless.
three responses in, and my money's on these two sentences right here for the best answer to come out of this thread, despite what i predict will turn into 12 pages of no-it-isn't-yes-it-is back and forth...
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imcd
Dec 26, 2005, 1:19 AM
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totally correct. Red point is what you are training for. I think that to try and use redpointing itself as a training tool could be flawed in that you will become good at the moves, but only those specific moves. In my opinion hangdogging and onsighting will benefit you more as training tools. When you find a hard route that motivates you and seams beyond your onsight level this is the time for projecting and redpoint. you might want to try something 2 -4 letter grades above your onsight ability. getting the redpoint can be a long and mentally draining experience, and I am not able to do this type of climbing more than a few times per year(thats just me though). hope that helps.
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antigrav
Dec 26, 2005, 7:35 AM
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Thanks for the input folks. But note that redpointing is *not* what I'm training for. I'm training for onsighting. I was wondering whether redpointing is a necessary evil for doing this, sorry if I was unclear on that... But I take it that the opinion here swings in the "yes"-direction.
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tucsonalex
Dec 26, 2005, 7:43 AM
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As stated above redpointing will add more moves to your bag of tricks. Hard redpoints will also get you used to climbing when pumped and teach you how to move quickly through a crux. Also, if you just lower when you fall you are not getting the endurance benefits of climbing an entire route. So, IMO the answer to your question is yes.
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overlord
Dec 26, 2005, 7:58 AM
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everybody should have a personal project. it gives you a goal for training.
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rastafari
Dec 26, 2005, 8:51 AM
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You memorize more moves and push yourself to your limit. Not to mention psychological development if you pul it together.
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andy_reagan
Dec 26, 2005, 5:18 PM
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as long as you're bouldering as well as onsighting (and running laps for endurance, etc), I don't see any reason why projecting a route would be necessary to help your onsighting. Bouldering is a much more effective way to "learn moves" (as well as train power) than hanging on a rope trying them.
In fact rehearsing the same moves over and over again would probably in the end hurt your onsight level, especially if you haven't been climbing for years.
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fishbelly
Dec 26, 2005, 6:40 PM
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uh do you say I climbed that route. Or I red pointed it, flashed it. There the satisfaction of doing a climb cleanly on what ever terms you play by and everyone approves of.
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gregjkm
Dec 27, 2005, 6:27 AM
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when i tell someone i climbed a route they almost always ask if i redpointed it. So i dont see a reason to redpoint to not redpoing a route because you havent really climbed a route well unless you redpointed it or flashed or onsighted it. That is how me and my climbing buddys think.
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talons05
Dec 27, 2005, 6:35 AM
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Have you never found a route that just LOOKED awesome and made you WANT to climb it? That's what redpointing is all about.
It will also help you progress through the grades, which isn't all that important, but being able to climb well gives you more chance of climbing that "magic line"
Cheers,
A.W.
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antigrav
Dec 27, 2005, 9:34 PM
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In reply to: as long as you're bouldering as well as onsighting (and running laps for endurance, etc), I don't see any reason why projecting a route would be necessary to help your onsighting. Bouldering is a much more effective way to "learn moves" (as well as train power) than hanging on a rope trying them. In fact rehearsing the same moves over and over again would probably in the end hurt your onsight level, especially if you haven't been climbing for years.
Of course...! Good point. I guess that bouldering in essence corresponds to redpointing a (possibly "long") crux of a route... Since I enjoy bouldering, I think I will stick to a combination of bouldering and onsighting (or "trying" to onsight) then... Phuhh... Relieved...
:wink:
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gogo
Jan 24, 2006, 5:07 AM
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Are you talking about indoor or outdoor climbing?
Wouldn't it seem that climbing outdoors and only going for on-sights you are going to run out of routes and miss out on working potentially great climbs?
Also, even if you are just training for onsighting, the stamina and mental training from redpointing seems like it would be beneficial. I mean, unless you go out and redpoint newer and harder routes, that leaves you only with bouldering and training laps on routes that you've already onsighted, which means they aren't hard enough to be pushing you.
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valeberga
Jan 24, 2006, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: as long as you're bouldering as well as onsighting (and running laps for endurance, etc), I don't see any reason why projecting a route would be necessary to help your onsighting. Bouldering is a much more effective way to "learn moves" (as well as train power) than hanging on a rope trying them. In fact rehearsing the same moves over and over again would probably in the end hurt your onsight level, especially if you haven't been climbing for years.
This is true in a raw physical sense, but some skills are not addressed here:
pulling crux moves after climbing 30-50 feet of often tiring moves,
ability to relax and pull balsy moves 50 feet off the deck,
placing and clipping gear when pumped and 50 feet off the deck.
Personally, I think you should only worry about redpointed once you have already climbed everything else, and the only climbs left at your crag are the hard ones that you have to work at.
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