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roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 10, 2006, 5:10 PM
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If companies really cared, they'd get ISO 9002 instead of the measily ISO 9001. But consumers don't know the difference so it's just as marketable and cheaper for the lesser standard. See a previous post as an example.
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tomtom
Feb 10, 2006, 10:08 PM
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In reply to: one thing that i notice is absent from this thread is the intense down-sizing of the climbing department at REI the last year or two. their climbing department has completely withered away. i was at the REI in boulder yesterday and they had 3 or 4 metolius cams and some BD's. I talked with a guy that worked there and he told me they were trying to get rid of approximately half of the department to make more room for "soft goods". i've heard from several shop owners and they all say that the profit on hard goods (ie climbing gear) is much lower than the profit on soft good (ie clothes). this kind of explains why most gear shops have 15 models of soft shells and 1 or 2 models of cams. REI's new stance on climbing gear will probably make this easier to support.
At the REI Flagship store in Seattle, the climbing dept has been pushed from the from the entrance of the store to a back corner and downsized by 2/3rds over the past year. This trend will probably continue until REI resembles Eddie Bauer - a clothing store with outdoor gear as decoration.
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mattm
Feb 10, 2006, 11:36 PM
Post #28 of 43
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In reply to: In reply to: one thing that i notice is absent from this thread is the intense down-sizing of the climbing department at REI the last year or two. their climbing department has completely withered away. i was at the REI in boulder yesterday and they had 3 or 4 metolius cams and some BD's. I talked with a guy that worked there and he told me they were trying to get rid of approximately half of the department to make more room for "soft goods". i've heard from several shop owners and they all say that the profit on hard goods (ie climbing gear) is much lower than the profit on soft good (ie clothes). this kind of explains why most gear shops have 15 models of soft shells and 1 or 2 models of cams. REI's new stance on climbing gear will probably make this easier to support. At the REI Flagship store in Seattle, the climbing dept has been pushed from the from the entrance of the store to a back corner and downsized by 2/3rds over the past year. This trend will probably continue until REI resembles Eddie Bauer - a clothing store with outdoor gear as decoration.
While the LOCATION of the climbing department has changed the SELECTION size is really about the same - in fact an effort has been made to expand brands and selection due to feedback (DMM and WC are being spotted more and more) and 70m ropes are FINALLY there.
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billcoe_
Feb 14, 2006, 4:14 AM
Post #29 of 43
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In reply to: While the LOCATION of the climbing department has changed the SELECTION size is really about the same -......
Absofrigganlutly not. They have been moving further away from gear since they started opening stores.....long long time ago.
I think Malcom speaks well on the whole matter.
Cam is 100% correct. But, what Healey says is true as well, and as cch currently has nothing, documenting the processes and following the same steps will help substantially.
REI should protect themselves, it's a lot cheaper to do it right - rather than doing a f*cked up mess that causes pain and anguish, and trying to face the truth later.
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dyomad
Feb 14, 2006, 5:41 AM
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I don't want to drift too far from the original thread because it's good and really informative to those of us who have no idea what various ISO standards mean but, if you're sad to see all the climbing gear go from REI then buy more of it from them. I can agree that REI probably carries less gear than they used to but the people who used to buy the majority of their climbing hardgoods now have kids and even grandkids and are doing the car camping thing instead of putting up FAs. Their customer grew up so they did too and you should as well. Most people would still go online and get a cheaper price anyways so it doesn't do REI any good to buy and stock the product just so we can fondle it before we order it off of gearwhore.com (if that's not a website yet then it should be). I totally hear what you're saying [mainly because it shows up in every fourth post on any climbing website ("REI has sold out!")] but we need to move on from the REI selling out thread and recognize that you can get some stuff there and some stuff you can't. Take the good with the bad and move on.
As to the original thread, it seems REI is doing something good. Granted it may be for show and is really insignificant but I know as a member and longtime employee of REI I heard nothing about this change to support this "only as PR" claim made earlier. Who knows, but it does seem like a step in the right direction and as the single largest retailer of outdoor gear it seems it is noble of them to do something because gearwhore.com certainly isn't going to have a great deal of influence on vendors.
On another note I'd like to thank Malcom for his contributions to this site. It is very rare that someone of his position is willing to take the time to get out and talk like this with actual customers. Tons of what he says has no direct benefit to Trango, it's just him sharing industry information to better inform us all. I wish every gear company CEO (or whatever) was required to have a user ID with regular postings.
Interesting thread.
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 15, 2006, 3:59 AM
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In reply to: While the LOCATION of the climbing department has changed the SELECTION size is really about the same - in fact an effort has been made to expand brands and selection due to feedback (DMM and WC are being spotted more and more) and 70m ropes are FINALLY there.
Actually, I never saw anything by WC at my local REI until after the aliens were removed and replaced by Zeros. I have seen some DMM but Petzl, BD, and Omega Pac seem to dominate.
Which brings up another question. Wild Country Zeros seem to be poised to take over CCH Aliens share of the market. What standards are they manufactured to? And will WC be able to expand its manufacturing process while maintaining quality control and not make the same mistake as CCH?
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healyje
Feb 15, 2006, 5:58 AM
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In reply to: Wild Country Zeros seem to be poised to take over CCH Aliens
In someone's dreams I suppose - but I don't put Zeros near the same ball park as Aliens and I'm not even all that big of an Alien fan outside of their hybrids.
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 15, 2006, 2:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Wild Country Zeros seem to be poised to take over CCH Aliens In someone's dreams I suppose - but I don't put Zeros near the same ball park as Aliens and I'm not even all that big of an Alien fan outside of their hybrids.
Check out www.rei.com and www.ems.com. Prior to the recall, both these stores carried Aliens but no Zeros. In fact, a year ago, the only store I knew that carried a full selection of Wild Country Cams was Rock and Snow in New Paltz, NY, and maybe Nomad in J-Tree.
Now both EMS and REI have replaced Aliens with Zeros as their small cam. I can't speak for the rest of the country but that's the two largest climbing chain stores on the East Coast. And I have a feeling that CCH will never be sold at either store again.
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healyje
Feb 16, 2006, 1:03 AM
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napoleon,
Where they're sold has nothing to do with how well they work in a head-to-head comparison, or what climbers think about how they perform in general. Store inventories simply are not an indicator of, nor a substitute for, a reasoned evaluation of the performance of climbing gear.
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reno
Feb 16, 2006, 4:48 AM
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In reply to: napoleon, Where they're sold has nothing to do with how well they work in a head-to-head comparison, or what climbers think about how they perform in general. Store inventories simply are not an indicator of, nor a substitute for, a reasoned evaluation of the performance of climbing gear.
Absolutely correct.
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epoch
Moderator
Feb 17, 2006, 12:00 PM
Post #36 of 43
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In reply to: napoleon, Where they're sold has nothing to do with how well they work in a head-to-head comparison, or what climbers think about how they perform in general. Store inventories simply are not an indicator of, nor a substitute for, a reasoned evaluation of the performance of climbing gear.
If I could rate today, you'd get a trophy!!
Well said.
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scuclimber
Feb 17, 2006, 9:28 PM
Post #37 of 43
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Wild Country Zeros seem to be poised to take over CCH Aliens In someone's dreams I suppose - but I don't put Zeros near the same ball park as Aliens and I'm not even all that big of an Alien fan outside of their hybrids. Check out www.rei.com and www.ems.com. Prior to the recall, both these stores carried Aliens but no Zeros. In fact, a year ago, the only store I knew that carried a full selection of Wild Country Cams was Rock and Snow in New Paltz, NY, and maybe Nomad in J-Tree. Now both EMS and REI have replaced Aliens with Zeros as their small cam. I can't speak for the rest of the country but that's the two largest climbing chain stores on the East Coast. And I have a feeling that CCH will never be sold at either store again.
REI definitely sold Zeros before the Alien recall. I work at an REI store and they were definitely on the shelf, but nobody asked for them.
Colin
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 19, 2006, 12:20 AM
Post #38 of 43
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In reply to: napoleon, Where they're sold has nothing to do with how well they work in a head-to-head comparison, or what climbers think about how they perform in general. Store inventories simply are not an indicator of, nor a substitute for, a reasoned evaluation of the performance of climbing gear.
My point is not whether Zeros perform better than Aliens or not. Simply that, at least here in the North East, they definitely have taken CCH's share of the in-store market. Now, the majority of gear is not bought by experienced climbers, but by Noobs and Noobs shop at major stores. And if they can't buy Aliens there but can buy Zeros, thats what they will get. I mean, how many new leaders actually compare the different cam types? I think most just buy what their Rope Daddy taught them to place.
This Forum was discussing ISO and test requirements and certifying manufacturing quality. My question is that, since WC has taken CCHs corner of REI, EMS, and many other national chains, can WC increase production without sacrificing quality? Will they have to contract out some of the manufacturing process.
Personally, I have never placed a Zero. The consensus I have found on this site is that they are second only to Aliens for small cracks. My rack has Aliens currently and I don't plan on switching yet.
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 19, 2006, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: REI definitely sold Zeros before the Alien recall. I work at an REI store and they were definitely on the shelf, but nobody asked for them. Colin
That must have been something your store did individually. I've never seen anything but BD, CCH, and Metolius cams at an REI in the North East or in California. They most definitely were never for sale on REI.com until after the recall. The only stores I had ever seen them at previously were small, locally owned gear shops.
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cruzinsouthoc
Feb 19, 2006, 8:03 PM
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I just checked out WC's website, they do have ISO 9001 certification they also carry UIAA and CE labels. WC also uses 3-sigma to give load ratings to their products. Somebody asked that in this thread earlier, so I thought I'd post it.
I work for a manufacturer of construction products myself and we have to comply to some pretty stringent quality control standards, especially for products used in essential applications at Nuclear Power facilities and in areas of high seismic activity, such as California.
Somebody brought up the idea of an industry organization made up of manufacturer's representatives to discuss topics and trends in the industry.
I think that may be a good idea for technical representatives from each of the manufacturers to form such an organization (the org I'm using as an example is the Concrete Anchor Manufacturer Ass'n or CAMA).
In this organization, representatives from manufacturers, code enforcement, testing standards, test labs and the university level hammer out what standards the industry should follow, what's good about how we've done it for the past 6 decades and what we should do in the future.
Sometimes the debates get heated, but at least everyone can voice their opinion and all of the industry leaders can debate the topics and come to a solution. Sometimes the debates uncover problems in the industry. For example, we had testing standards written for concrete anchors written many years ago and over the years, people have found ways to comply and maximize the results of their products that some felt were questionable. So new standards were written to minimize the possibility of "gaming" of the system by manufacturers so everyone is on a level playing field. The new standards are much more difficult to meet and hard to "game", and some had choice words to say about the new system...guess who they were, the ones who were rumored to seriously "game" the system and it seems they're upset that they can't find a way to game the system anymore. Or some found it was going to cost $$ to revampt their process to meet the new standards.
The reason I bring this up is that there seem to be differing opinions on this thread as to what standards are relevant, which standards mfr's should follow and what we as users should expect from companies we buy gear from. If manufacturers formed some sort of an organization, maybe they can come to a consensus of what standards they should all meet. In that association, retailers should be involved as well and meetings should be open to consumers like us so our concerns for our safety can be voiced. I'm totally just throwing out random ideas, but I'm just brainstorming.
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stymingersfink
Feb 19, 2006, 9:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: napoleon, Where they're sold has nothing to do with how well they work in a head-to-head comparison, or what climbers think about how they perform in general. Store inventories simply are not an indicator of, nor a substitute for, a reasoned evaluation of the performance of climbing gear. If I could rate today, you'd get a trophy!! Well said.
:wink: Done.
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 20, 2006, 3:26 AM
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In reply to: Somebody brought up the idea of an industry organization made up of manufacturer's representatives to discuss topics and trends in the industry. I think that may be a good idea for technical representatives from each of the manufacturers to form such an organization (the org I'm using as an example is the Concrete Anchor Manufacturer Ass'n or CAMA).
I do think its better if the climbing industry regulates itself rather than an outside government entity. All it would take is a high profile accident or two to cause a public outcry. For example, you are going to see MMS tight the noose on the mining industry for the accident back in January in WV. I would trust equipment manufaturers over a regulatory agency in coming up with standards.
The manufacturers need to be proactive in this.
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epicsaga
Mar 6, 2006, 11:19 PM
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From what I've personally seen of ISO 9001 it entails lots of redundant documentation and red tape and costly auditors. It seems like a program to create lucrative jobs and contracts.
Big companies can afford it, small ones can't. Example, documenting and proving every possible item within an organization.
I question how much any of these standards assure or improve safety.
I'd don't know if 6 sigma and total quality managemnet (TQM) are as red tape laden as ISO 9001.
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