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fargoan
Feb 23, 2006, 8:04 PM
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Hey Everyone,
In the latest New England Journal of Medicine you will find a large clinical trial on the effects of Glucosamine +/- Chondroitin Sulfate in joint health.
This is a large, well-controlled study that looks at the effects of G-CS in knee pain; the conclusions say that the benefits are no better than placebo with the exception of some modest benefit in 20% of individuals with severe knee pain.
I would like to point out, that this study did look at knee pain and knee pain only. There are no scientific studies that I can find that have ever examined benifits for glucosamine in the fingers. Knee pain is typically studied because it is more common, and because the knee joint is one of the most highly vascularized in the body, and the effects of glucosamine would be expected to be greater here than at joints in the extremities.
Just food for thought. Find the article through PubMed.
Jonathan
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pindrvr75
Feb 23, 2006, 8:11 PM
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I've used it for ten years now as a rehab to four knee surgeries. It does nothing to relieve pain but it surely does help joint flexibility.
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gmreeves
Feb 23, 2006, 9:28 PM
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i take it because i have read studies that show it helps with flexibility of tendons and also the rebuilding of damaged tendons. i have also read that it will supposedly have the affects similar to advil or anti-inflammatory if you take consistently for a few months.
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aspiringmonkey
Feb 23, 2006, 9:29 PM
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For those of you that do like using g-cs, try the Emergen-C drink powder. Some of these you can buy have a dosage of g-cs in them in addition to some daily vitamins and alot of vitamin C. The tangerine flavor with g-cs is pretty good in my opinion. Whether it works well or not, i drink one every day and maybe just psychologically it seems like my finger recovery is improving better because of this. If not at least it has other great vitamins.
Blakeb
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crankingclimber
Feb 23, 2006, 9:46 PM
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Glucosmine, chondroiton plus MSM formula is what I take, and I swear by it.
A couple of years ago I went bouldering outdoors one day - climbed real hard on steep crimps, and I'm a big guy - exactly the type of thing which is hard on fingers. That night, I got bored, and so I went to the local climbing wall, and thrashed myself hard again. The next morning I woke up with my hands so stiff and sore I couldn't come close to clenching fists. In fact, my fingers were so stiff, that I couldn't grasp the doorknob hard enough with both hands to get out of my bedroom. I eventually got out by pinching the doorknob between both palms. I spent the next half hour massaging my fingers under a hot shower to get them somewhat useful again. After that I thought that I'd reached my climbing limit - ibuprofen could only do so much, I thought I'd basically not be able to push myself harder than that day.
Then, I discovered glucosamine. I started taking that, and a month later, I wnet on a month long trip out West, including two weeks of fingerlocking like a madman in the Valley, and barely had sore knuckles at all. I've taken it ever since then, and have been progressing through the grades. I know it helps in my case, and beyond just placebo affect.
That being said, my knees are all kinds of screwed up, and I haven't noticed much of a difference there. So, maybe the hands, or just my hands, are better at getting the affects? Don't know, but, I'm going to be taking it, that's for sure.
Will
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rck_iceclimber9
Feb 23, 2006, 10:16 PM
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I agree with aspiringmonkey. I used to use Glucosamine all the time for flexibility, but i haven't used it in years and i can't see the difference without it. Emger'gen C is absolutely the best thing i have tried, so far. Besides helping with recovery of injury for really anything, it is a energy booster, and it combined with other natural remedies have kept me from getting sick in years, not even a cold (only a sniffle because of being in cold weather). But it is not like Glucosamine has no purpose. Every body is different.
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jt512
Feb 23, 2006, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: i take it because i have read studies that show it helps with flexibility of tendons and also the rebuilding of damaged tendons.
There is no evidence whatsoever that glucosamine has any affect on tendons. Glucosamine is thought to benefit joint cartilage.
Jay
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billcoe_
Feb 23, 2006, 10:32 PM
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Will, not to crap on your story, but I once ripped 3 or 4 finger tendons from crimping in the gym. Could clench a fist without pain.
3 weeks later I was cranking (gingerly at first and happily later) hard 5.10 fingercracks realatively pain-free in Squamish like a big dog.
Later, I come back, gym climbing still hurt.
There was no Glucoseamine involved. I couldn't even spell it back then.
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pastprime
Feb 23, 2006, 11:42 PM
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Glucosamine is not a pain reliever, but several other studies have shown it to be effective in rebuilding the cartilage cushions in the joints, which takes time.
I was developing quite troublesome arthritic problems when I started taking it several years ago, and my worst days now are better than my normal days were for several years before I started taking it. It was about two months after starting to take it before I started to think it might be making a difference, and about 6 months before I could solidly tell things were better. Maybe the improvement is actually due to some change in the alignment of Jupiter and the Clouds of Magellan, but I'm convinced enough that I'd hate to not be able to use it any more.
A lot of these studies only muddy the water, because the people conducting them don't understand the thing they are supposedly studying, and this may be one of those cases. The fact that they were testing the effectiveness of a substance against pain that is not a pain reliever makes one wonder what the point was.
There are a lot of "product tests" that are analogous to testing a compass and pronouncing it a worthless hoax because it only pointed in one direction, and that was never the direction the testers wanted to go.
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rad_dog
Feb 23, 2006, 11:45 PM
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According to the athletic dept. at a major southern university - the chondrotin molecule is too large to be absorbed in the GI tract and is therefore believed to be of little or no value. Glucosamine they recommended.
There is a liquid glucosamine/msm product on the market (Drinkables) that I seem to get decent results with when I take double the recommended dosage split between morning and night.
When it comes to injury recovery (tendonitis,etc), I've found that an ice pack is my best friend. I used to use it maybe once a day and it seemed to help. After a cycle of icing 3-4 times a day for several days I feel a lot better. There are some nice ice packs available or you can buy a bag of frozen peas and use them until they get funky.
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alpinismo_flujo
Feb 23, 2006, 11:59 PM
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rad_dog...you're on it.
I use Glucosamine too - can't tell that it's helping or not, because I'm always pushing physical activities, but most medical reports say good things about Glucosamine.
Try Trader Joe's for the stuff. They have the cheapest prices I have found. $5 per bottle.
A funky bag peas is my best friend though - instant results!
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sspssp
Feb 24, 2006, 12:24 AM
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The story I read about it was in the SF Chronicle.
It said that it was tested on people with athritis in the knees. So they were using the amount of pain as an indication of how bad the arthritis was. They weren't trying to test it as a direct pain reliever.
General joint problems might behave differently than arthritis anyways.
I do take it on the off chance that it works, but I had serious doubts even before this study comes out.
For those of you who swear it worked for you, how do you really know that you might not have gotten better over that length of time even without it? When I first started hitting 5.11 sport climbs, I got crippling finger problems and I concluded I would be stuck at 5.10. However, being more careful (and moving up grades more slowly), I eventually got up to 5.12. If I had started taking GC back then (instead of later), I would also be one of the ones who swore it worked.
At least it is pretty conclusive that there isn't a down side (besides cost).
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fargoan
Feb 24, 2006, 1:01 AM
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In reply to: A lot of these studies only muddy the water, because the people conducting them don't understand the thing they are supposedly studying, and this may be one of those cases. The fact that they were testing the effectiveness of a substance against pain that is not a pain reliever makes one wonder what the point was. There are a lot of "product tests" that are analogous to testing a compass and pronouncing it a worthless hoax because it only pointed in one direction, and that was never the direction the testers wanted to go.
With all due respect, this particular study was published as a consensus by over two dozen medical doctors, pharmacists, and a couple of PhDs. It has been published in one of, if not the most preeminent medical journals in this country. They enrolled over 1500 people in their study. Reading through the study design, I think it is fair to say (without getting into the nitty gritty details of design) that this is a highly qualified study. They acknowledge its limitations as well, in their discussion section of the paper.
I am not saying that when people have an injury, and take glucosamine, that they don't feel better and get better during that time. There are many impressive personal annecdotes (sp?). I think people agree that just taking the pill does have some affect. However, according to this latest major clinical trial/study, whether or not these beneficial effects come from the glucosamine itself would appear to be unlikely.
It's damn expensive to buy and take, especially when you can't say for sure that you'll feel better after using it.
Jonathan
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jercech
Feb 24, 2006, 8:51 PM
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My orthodpod endorses G/CS and that is enough for me.
The study in question tested G/CS as a pain releiver for arthritis. Doc explained to me that G/CS should be taken as a supplement over the long term to aid in the healing of cartilage after trauma.
I can't say I've had positive results yet, talk to me in 15 years to see if my knee has been replaced or not.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 24, 2006, 9:13 PM
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IIRC didn't they get twice the normal positive score on placebo (like 60%) and wasn't this study partially funded by the maker of Vioxx (which was shown effective)?
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fluxus
Feb 24, 2006, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: Hey Everyone, In the latest New England Journal of Medicine you will find a large clinical trial on the effects of Glucosamine +/- Chondroitin Sulfate in joint health. This is a large, well-controlled study that looks at the effects of G-CS in knee pain; the conclusions say that the benefits are no better than placebo with the exception of some modest benefit in 20% of individuals with severe knee pain.
I hear about this study on NPR, have not looked at the actual paper yet. The NPR coverage focused on pain relief but did the study look at actual effectivness of Glucosamine at healing / growing cartlage? In the context of this study is saying that there is limited benefit in terms of pain relief the same as saying it does not heal cartlage?
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rgold
Feb 24, 2006, 10:10 PM
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The study is about pain relief.
Personally, I have some arthritis in my hip, in a toe joint, and in my fingers. When I take glucosamine + condroiten + msm regularly, I have no pain in the hip or fingers. When I stop, pain returns to my hip fairly quickly, the fingers much more slowly. Nothing helps the toe.
Perhaps the situation is more complicated then the study is set up to detect.
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janderson4010
Feb 25, 2006, 1:19 AM
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I work for a company that sells a glucosamine product and I have never heard anyone speak badly about it. It seems to work quite well for ayone who tried it, course they're all old folks mostly, don't know if a lot of climbers have tried it but there you go, just my two cents. :)
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billcoe_
Feb 25, 2006, 1:30 AM
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In reply to: I work for a company that sells a glucosamine product and I have never heard anyone speak badly about it. It seems to work quite well for anyone who tried it, course they're all old folks mostly, don't know if a lot of climbers have tried it but there you go, just my two cents. :)
Stick around anderson: plenty of people will speak ill of it.
There is strong anecdotal evidence that in athletes, it causes a high incident of soft tissue problems like ligament and muscle tears.
I tore my muscle playing racquetball with my son - the pain was bad, almost as bad as th3e pain of hearing over and over how I'd gotten Pwned (POwened) on the point and match before wussing out by my pup.
I was trying a glucoseamine regimen (the good stuff from Costco) for my knees (which I tore up years earlier in the mountains) , anticipating a severe skiing season about to occur.
Can't say as if it helped my knee. Later I hear of many others having soft tissue problems.
So, it's a toss up in my book. When I get older, I may very well try it again, but not until I cool off a bit and age.
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weschrist
Feb 25, 2006, 1:33 AM
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In reply to: Perhaps the situation is more complicated then the study is set up to detect.
Don't throw up your hands just yet! There is a way around the uncertainty.
If jt58 agrees with the study then the situation is black and white and the study is valid, regardless of the lack of statistical significance or flawed design. Otherwise, regardless of how many studies suggest a result different than jt58's beliefs, there is no proof of anything and all suggestions are to discarded.
we all wait patiently for the definitive word...
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billcoe_
Feb 25, 2006, 1:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Perhaps the situation is more complicated then the study is set up to detect. Don't throw up your hands just yet! There is a way around the uncertainty. If jt58 agrees with the study then the situation is black and white and the study is valid, regardless of the lack of statistical significance or flawed design. Otherwise, regardless of how many studies suggest a result different than jt58's beliefs, there is no proof of anything and all suggestions are to discarded. we all wait patiently for the definitive word...
Well, now it's just a matter of time until JT5.6 gets here since you called him out.
FYI, the dude is pretty damn sharp, he pretty much is 99.9...percent on the money, as difficult as that might be to choke down.
Cough* *cough* gag* cough*
So take your medicine wescrist, as bad as it might taste.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 25, 2006, 1:59 AM
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Aw, give Wes a break. He got beat up bad in the Vegie thread and is still hurtin...probably why he's looking at this thread ;-) Easy to tell who lost the fight when they resort to ad hominems.
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weschrist
Feb 25, 2006, 2:03 AM
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In reply to: FYI, the dude is pretty damn sharp, he pretty much is 99.9...percent on the money, as difficult as that might be to choke down.
I'm not saying jt58 doesn't sometimes know what he is talking about, many autistic people are smart in their limited fields.
"A psychiatric disorder characterized by marked deficits in communication and social interaction"
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weschrist
Feb 25, 2006, 2:05 AM
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In reply to: He got beat up bad in the Vegie thread and is still hurtin...probably why he's looking at this thread
no, actually I'm just looking for information. It struck me as funny to read jt's blunt, entirely uninformative comment in the midst of others trying to discuss the topic.
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