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michaelmcguinn
Feb 26, 2006, 6:22 PM
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Outside Magazine just reported that the Navajo Nation is selling out their sacred places and tribal parks.
In reply to: After years of drooling over the Navajo Nation's MONUMENT VALLEY, climbers should finally get access to the region's sandstone formations this spring. As of mid-January, a permitting (and profit-sharing) agreement between the tribe and outfitter 360 Adventures was set to be finalized in early spring, allowing guided rockhounds 100 days a year on 400-foot monoliths like Totem pole and Sentinel Mesa. About$1,000 per day; www.360-adventures.com |
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rmsusa
Feb 26, 2006, 6:45 PM
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This is GREAT news. It'll provide a bit more income to a poverty-stricken corner of the country and a good experience to climbers.
Kudos to the tribal government!
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chugach001
Feb 26, 2006, 7:21 PM
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T1
T2
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michaelmcguinn
Feb 26, 2006, 8:22 PM
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No troll.
You can check it out at Outside magazine, Outside Online and the Access Fund.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/104674
MM
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tattooed_climber
Feb 26, 2006, 8:29 PM
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whats so wrong with that?????(reference to your shitty title).. the band makes some cash to help its people, climbers get FA access, and it has conservation written all over it??? are you complaining or some shit?
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gunksgoer
Feb 26, 2006, 8:42 PM
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1 grand for a day of climbing?
The dirtbags will be all over that shit.
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healyje
Feb 26, 2006, 9:03 PM
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Native Americans have not in any way sold out. If you want to question anyone I'd question why the Access Fund would possibly negotiate exclusive access on behalf of a commercial venture charging fairly steep rates. How is that "Access" for anyone but a few fairly well off climbers. I personally would much prefer to see such areas stay closed rather than opened on this basis. If the AF can't negotiate a less commercial and more equitable "access" they should simply leave areas closed.
[ Note: My Wife is a member of the Colville Tribe ]
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mdude
Feb 26, 2006, 9:09 PM
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BIG TIME SELL OUTS
I have a problem with Native American Tribes Selling Out. Many are such hypocrites especially when it comes to the all mighty dollar.
Lets take a look at a few incidents in the recent past.
Devils Tower – Voluntary one month closure under high pressure. You bet the tribes up there would like it totally closed.
Cave Rock – Full Closure
Non-climbing
The Navajo Tribe was just in a huge battle over snowmaking in Arizona (on Forest Service lands) and now they are selling recreation on their own land.
Look at the Casinos on the REZ. Making tons of money put killing their people. Turns them in to gambling alcoholics. Those that disagree just haven’t seen it.
A quick look at mining. Oh forget it.
Crap just crap.
Oooooo, the list goes on and on.
Taking a look at Outside’s news clip, the only way you are going to climb in Monument Valley is to pay. AND PAY BIG. Definitely not open for all access climbing
Terrible that they compromise their values like that.
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lofstromc
Feb 26, 2006, 9:46 PM
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Question to all previous posters who were agreeing with the OP's term of "selling out"...are you all white guys or do you have any blood in you?
Just curious.
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healyje
Feb 26, 2006, 10:24 PM
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In reply to: BIG TIME SELL OUTS I have a problem with Native American Tribes Selling Out. Many are such hypocrites especially when it comes to the all mighty dollar. Lets take a look at a few incidents in the recent past. Devils Tower – Voluntary one month closure under high pressure. You bet the tribes up there would like it totally closed. Cave Rock – Full Closure Non-climbing The Navajo Tribe was just in a huge battle over snowmaking in Arizona (on Forest Service lands) and now they are selling recreation on their own land. Look at the Casinos on the REZ. Making tons of money put killing their people. Turns them in to gambling alcoholics. Those that disagree just haven’t seen it. A quick look at mining. Oh forget it. Crap just crap. Oooooo, the list goes on and on. Taking a look at Outside’s news clip, the only way you are going to climb in Monument Valley is to pay. AND PAY BIG. Definitely not open for all access climbing.
Well, start to finish that's pretty much a completely ignorant and clueless rant...
In reply to: Terrible that they compromise their values like that.
Oh, you'd prefer they simply starve to death in silence and not trouble you. Or are you simply a keeper of "their values".
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mdude
Feb 26, 2006, 10:45 PM
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Hey healyje,
Why don't you bring something to the argument. Just posting simple thoughtless comments doesn't cut it.
In reply to: Well, start to finish that's pretty much a completely ignorant and clueless rant...
I backed my opinion with specifics and fact.
Do you think that 100 days of climbing is going to feed the starving on the rez. No way.
How about the closing of the Black Mesa mine? Now closing down that operation put many natives out of a job. Alot of the workers there made alot of money to support a good portion of there extended family. We are talking about one person making 90,000 and sharing it with 20 others.
Come on healyje, I want a good responce.
MDude
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curt
Feb 26, 2006, 10:55 PM
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In reply to: Native Americans have not in any way sold out. If you want to question anyone I'd question why the Access Fund would possibly negotiate exclusive access on behalf of a commercial venture charging fairly steep rates. How is that "Access" for anyone but a few fairly well off climbers. I personally would much prefer to see such areas stay closed rather than opened on this basis. If the AF can't negotiate a less commercial and more equitable "access" they should simply leave areas closed. [ Note: My Wife is a member of the Colville Tribe ]
In the past, movie makers, TV commercial producers and other advertizing production companies, etc already had access to Monument Valley in exchange for hefty cash payments to the tribe. So, I don't really see this change in policy as a "selling out" by the indian tribes beyond their previous access policies. As for the AF, I don't speak for them, but I suspect they see this as a step in the right direction, i.e. some increased climbing access is better than none.
Curt
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healyje
Feb 26, 2006, 11:19 PM
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In reply to: Come on healyje, I want a good responce.
That'll have to wait for a post from you worthy of one and that explains from where you think the tribes should get money.
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healyje
Feb 26, 2006, 11:25 PM
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In reply to: As for the AF, I don't speak for them, but I suspect they see this as a step in the right direction, i.e. some increased climbing access is better than none.
Curt, I understand, but this is just a case where I part company with them in that opinion. This kind of access sets a bad precedent in an era of increasingly commercialized climbing. I'd agree with a more moderate access fee for all climbers and the training members of the tribe to accompany climbing parties in a non-climbing capacity at first, with part of the deal to include the tribe getting access to partially AF-funded guide training - there are enough kids on the rez that could well avail themselves of the training.
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curt
Feb 26, 2006, 11:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: As for the AF, I don't speak for them, but I suspect they see this as a step in the right direction, i.e. some increased climbing access is better than none. Curt, I understand, but this is just a case where I part company with them in that opinion. This kind of access sets a bad precedent in an era of increasingly commercialized climbing.
Whatever. Hopefully, you aren't surprised though--since that is the Access Fund's charter.
Curt
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mesomorf
Feb 26, 2006, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: Outside Magazine just reported that the Navajo Nation is selling out their sacred places and tribal parks. In reply to: After years of drooling over the Navajo Nation's MONUMENT VALLEY, climbingers should finally get access to the region's sandstone formations this spring. As of mid-January, a permitting (and profit-sharing) agreement between the tribe and outfitter 360 Adventures was set to be finalized in early spring, allowing guided rockhounds 100 days a year on 400-foot monoliths like Totem pole and Sentinel Mesa. About$1,000 per day; www.360-adventures.com
"climbingers?"
Would you mind providing a citation (URL)? I'd like to read the report you quote.
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iamthewallress
Feb 26, 2006, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: As of February 13th we're working with the Navajo Nation to secure exclusive guiding permits. What this means is that soon, you'll be able to climb these famous spires and buttes - in style. Our tours are not "bare-bones" outings. These are the epitome of camping luxury. We will combine your climb with the Navajo experience. You'll wake to the sounds of flutes and the smell of coffee. After breakfast it's "GO-TIME"!!!
The quote kind of speaks for itself.
I'm glad that people will have access to formations and that the natives will get some money, but it's a shame that you can't experience the Totem Pole w/o getting the commercial faux native luxury camping flute awakening.
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mdude
Feb 27, 2006, 12:00 AM
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sell
v. sold, (sld) sell·ing, sells
1. To exchange or deliver for money or its equivalent.
To offer for sale, as for one's business or livelihood: The partners sell textiles.
2. To give up or surrender in exchange for a price or reward: sell one's soul to the devil.
3. To be purchased in (a certain quantity); achieve sales of: a book that sold a million copies.
v. intr.
1. To exchange ownership for money or its equivalent; engage in selling.
2. To be sold or be on sale: Grapes are selling high this season.
3. To attract prospective buyers; be popular on the market: an item that sells well.
4. To be approved of; gain acceptance.
The Navajo Nation meets the exact definition of selling out .
Quit hypocritical that the Navajo Nation yells and screams when anyone wants to do something on their "SACRED LAND" yet when someone comes along with a few thousand dollars they bend their view.
I have yet to put a price on what I consider sacred.
MDUDE
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shanz
Feb 27, 2006, 12:10 AM
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Though the price is a little steep i see this not only as a chance to climb in some places that have been relatively off limits, but a chance to experience the native American culture. At least the chance for outsiders to gain a little more insight to the culture of these people. Often times Ive heard these people as being alcoholics and gamblers(which often is a broad generalization among various ethnic groups). But i also know a history rich with spirituality and a love for the land. I see this as an opportunity to foster a relationship between the tribes and climbers. Both of which are very into mother earth.
Whether or not this is a smart or good move I'm not sure. It leaves me also wondering what implications this could have on the future of the Native lands. I can only hope this will positively affect these people.
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drubt
Feb 27, 2006, 12:14 AM
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In reply to: About$1,000 per day
In reply to: Do you think that 100 days of climbing is going to feed the starving on the rez. No way.
you might check my math but I think that $1000 x 100=$100,000
of course you may be right that may not be enough to feed "the starving on the rez"
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michaelmcguinn
Feb 27, 2006, 12:19 AM
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Thanks for the spelling correction mesomorf.
You have to get the magazine to read it.
This is what is on the web site.
In reply to: D I S P A T C H E S » THE GO LIST: The Four Seasons takes camping upscale in Thailand; VODKA from the lava fields of Iceland; the world's best ski prom; MONUMENT VALLEY opens to climbers; frequent-flier miles go galactic; and more.
http://outside.away.com/outside/toc/200603.html
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tradrenn
Feb 27, 2006, 12:46 AM
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In reply to: 1 grand for a day of climbing? The dirtbags will be all over that s---.
LMAOL :lol:
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fishbelly
Feb 27, 2006, 1:14 AM
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Kind of makes them look like normal people.
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mdude
Feb 27, 2006, 1:32 AM
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In reply to: you might check my math but I think that $1000 x 100=$100,000 of course you may be right that may not be enough to feed "the starving on the rez"
I am sure that the Navajo Nation will only get a share ot the total revenue. 1/2 of 100,000 = 50,000 Probable less than 1/2 for the tribe.
I wonder what the split with 360 really is?
Buy the way. I remember that the Navajo Nation put out a press release many years ago when Indian Gaming just started. They said that there Reservation would not have a casino. Well that has change too. There are plans for the Navajo Nation to build a casino soon.
MDUDE
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healyje
Feb 27, 2006, 1:36 AM
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In reply to: I have yet to put a price on what I consider sacred.
How convenient for you that you don't have to or it would be interesting to see at just what prices they'd be going for. And, again, you'd have Native Americans fund their share of the American dream how?
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Native Americans SELL OUT - Monument Valley
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