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cracklover
Mar 27, 2006, 7:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Since the cam lobes are still visually parallel it appears that the axle bent, not the cam lobe. I don't know mal, the axle looks pretty straight to me... although it is a little hard to tell from the picture, hold a straight edge up and see what you think. It looks to me like both cam lobes have been bent ala apollodorus style (btw, was it worth fixing... sounds like way more than $50 worth of work for a less than optimal piece of gear).
Hold a straight edge to what? It looks pretty clear cut to me. Both of the right-hand lobes are below the straight-edge lines; the one further to the right is further below the straight-edge line; and the angle of both of the lobes is consistent with lobes lying correctly perpendicular on a bent axle. All of the above is consistent with a bent axle/staight lobes, and all but the angle of the lobes is inconsistent with a straight axle/bent lobes. What are you seeing differently than I am?
http://www.great-river.com/pix/bdcam.jpg
GO
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weschrist
Mar 27, 2006, 7:54 PM
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In reply to: Hold a straight edge to what?
THE AXLE! Damn, comprehension skills suck around here. You diagrammed the cam feet and even without the diagram a 2nd grader could see the cam feet are not parallel. What else is there to check?
In reply to: It looks pretty clear cut to me. Both of the right-hand lobes are below the straight-edge lines... blah blah blah... but the angle of the lobes is inconsistent with a straight axle/bent lobes. What are you seeing differently than I am?
Read apollodorus' description. I have seen it, the lobes can be at odd angle and the axle still straight.
OP, please post a picture with the axle clearly visable so cracklover can diagram that and get the clear picture of what is going on.
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enchanted
Mar 27, 2006, 8:02 PM
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Seems like a good reason to buy Trango Flex Cams to me! I've heard of three different cases of bent C4's already!!! I love the flex cams I've been using. I've taken a bunch of big falls on them and not a hint of this kind of damage. Nice work MAL!
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mattm
Mar 27, 2006, 8:37 PM
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Holy broad speculation and thread drift batman!
Anyway...
Axle is bent - it's plain as day when you look at the ENDs relative to the center of the cams. Perhaps there's a little cam deformity but the axle is CLEARLY bent. I've seen this same damage occur on an old .3 Camalot. It's placement was in a bottoming pin scar in a vertical corner. Climber took big fall (20+) - Cam held said fall but axle tweaked and bent in process. Mal re-afirms this is a common damage cause. BOTTOM LINE - the cam held a high force fall close to the anchor - the .4 isn't safe anymore but you are. Get a new one and send the old one to BD - it's always helpful to have real world data points about your products.
What can one learn about this? Placement quality can and does affect the cams ability to hold a fall as well as come out relatively unscathed. I know certain placements I make are "fall and you buy a new piece" placements - it's solid but will likely tweak the cam (TCUs fall into this category more than other I find - due to the u-stem and cable stiffness) I've found that the small Camalots axles do bend a little more BUT have held the falls that bent them. Could a single stem cam have fit the placement? Could it have held? Who knows - welcome to trad climbing and gear placements.
RE: appolodus and fixing his cams: he makes the Valley Cams (Top notch quality - If you have the means I highly recommend you pick them up) so I'd argue he has the tools and resources on hand to make it cost effective.
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tgreene
Mar 27, 2006, 9:16 PM
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In reply to: THE AXLE! Damn, comprehension skills suck around here. You diagrammed the cam feet and even without the diagram a 2nd grader could see the cam feet are not parallel. What else is there to check?
The parallel orange lines begin on the lower right axle, and extend in a straight line from the outer post, to the visible portion of the axle between the 2 right lobes, and up and across to the left...
The pink line matches up with the axle post on the left side, and the blue line with the axle post on the right. I have a feeling that what you're looking at on the left and referring to as the axel, is actually the retaining link... See anything odd about this NEW diagram..? :wink:
http://www.great-river.com/pix/bdcam-2.jpg
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mhabicht
Mar 27, 2006, 9:21 PM
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Hmm... After my wife dropped a #2 200+ feet we asked the BD rep what could be done. "THROW IT OUT!" Was his response. Dont think about, dont fix it, dont TR on it just chuck it! He is a friend of ours so I believe he wasnt just trying to sell more cams (besides we had 5 so we didnt need another)
You have to ask yourself- would you spend 50 bucks to un-break your femur? Or un-die or stop worrying about the potential grounder. I have seen this question come up so many times and it just isn't worth it. Just chuck the piece, count your blessings that it kept you off the deck once and move on.
If you have any doubt- then there is no doubt- just throw it out. An old guide told me that....
-michael
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healyje
Mar 27, 2006, 9:33 PM
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In reply to: Hmm... After my wife dropped a #2 200+ feet we asked the BD rep what could be done. "THROW IT OUT!" Was his response. Dont think about, dont fix it, dont TR on it just chuck it!
Had the same experience with a Metolius cam - they said the same thing - bummer, but toss it - do not even think about it...
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apollodorus
Mar 27, 2006, 9:46 PM
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When I've pulled larger Camalots apart, the axles were usually still straight. The only thing that keeps the lobes parallel is their tight fit on the axle. As soon as the hole gets deformed a bit, the lobe is at an angle.
You are correct that it's usually not worth the trouble to fix cams. Since I already had the shop setup, it was not too bad. I won't even try to fix wires on Aliens these days, though.
BD will always tell you to toss a cam, if in doubt. There is no way they are going to take any sort of liability risk, telling a customer that a dropped cam is OK.
BD was purchased from Yvon Chouinard (I think it was an employee-group buyout) to pay off a liability lawsuit. The quick story is that he didn't put warning labels on his gear, some noob cratered, and the parents' lieyer was able to convince a jury that even though Chouinard made the best, safest gear in the world, it was his fault.
BD has a testing machine. You might send the cam to them, have them break it and then tell you how it did. At least you could close off this topic 8-)
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caughtinside
Mar 27, 2006, 9:49 PM
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In reply to: BD was purchased from Yvon Chouinard (I think it was an employee-group buyout) to pay off a liability lawsuit. The quick story is that he didn't put warning labels on his gear, some noob cratered, and the parents' lieyer was able to convince a jury that even though Chouinard made the best, safest gear in the world, it was his fault.
Hey Tom, you spelled 'Lawyer' wron... oh. nevermind. 8^)
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cracklover
Mar 27, 2006, 10:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hold a straight edge to what? THE AXLE! Damn, comprehension skills suck around here. You diagrammed the cam feet and even without the diagram a 2nd grader could see the cam feet are not parallel. What else is there to check?
My reading comprehension is just fine. The axles are not visible in any of the photos I've seen. Of course if you take the cam lobes off, voila, you have your answer. But that's not an option for me, on this side of the net. So I'm going by the pics posted here.
In reply to: In reply to: It looks pretty clear cut to me. Both of the right-hand lobes are below the straight-edge lines... blah blah blah... but the angle of the lobes is inconsistent with a straight axle/bent lobes. What are you seeing differently than I am? Read apollodorus' description. I have seen it, the lobes can be at odd angle and the axle still straight.
Holy poor reading comprehension, Batman! I said exactly that - that the *only* thing common to a bent axle and bent lobes are the angles of the lobes. Everything else (the vertical alignment of the cam lobes relative from one side to the other, and relative to each other on the right side) is only consistent with a bent axle.
In reply to: OP, please post a picture with the axle clearly visable so cracklover can diagram that and get the clear picture of what is going on.
How is it that you are so clear of "what's going on" (and you seem to be alone in your understanding of the "facts") without such a picture? All I'm asking is for you to show where your conclusion comes from. Point to any picture and show me where the lobes are bent but aligned along a straight axle.
Good luck! Okay, since you're not going to be able to do that, here's what you can do. Take a look at this image.
http://i1.tinypic.com/se6pm1.jpg
The red line *should* be parallel to the upper axle, but instead you see that the middle of the axle on the left is significantly closer to the red line than the middle of the axle on the right.
Bent axle - simple as that.
GO
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weschrist
Mar 27, 2006, 11:16 PM
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In reply to: The parallel orange lines begin on the lower right axle, and extend in a straight line from the outer post, to the visible portion of the axle between the 2 right lobes, and up and across to the left...
dude, your top yellow line goes from the top of the lower axle to the bottom of the upper axle. Your lower yellow line goes... well, you and God only know because you don't have any visual reference on the left side.
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mdude
Mar 27, 2006, 11:28 PM
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The lines are off because the cam is not square in the picture frame. Any 2nd grader can see that.
MD
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weschrist
Mar 27, 2006, 11:33 PM
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In reply to: Everything else (the vertical alignment of the cam lobes relative from one side to the other, and relative to each other on the right side) is only consistent with a bent axle.
wrong.
In reply to: How is it that you are so clear of "what's going on" (and you seem to be alone in your understanding of the "facts") without such a picture?
I am not alone in my understanding, apollodorus seems to know wtf is going on. I have seen similar situations and I can't imagine a force strong enough to bend the axle without way more damage to the individual cam feet. It is relatively easy to ream the hole with force... hell, I could do it with a pair of pliers if I wanted to. If I am wrong may god strike me dead.
In reply to: All I'm asking is for you to show where your conclusion comes from. Point to any picture and show me where the lobes are bent but aligned along a straight axle.
I suppose I was a bit misleading when I was talking about bent cam lobes when in fact I was talking about bending the hole through which the axle runs.
In reply to: Good luck! Okay, since you're not going to be able to do that, here's what you can do.
I can do anything.
In reply to: The red line *should* be parallel to the upper axle, but instead you see that the middle of the axle on the left is significantly closer to the red line than the middle of the axle on the right.
Hopeless. You can't even see "the middle of the axle on the left" or right.
The red line is (approximately) lined up with the two end points of the axle and perpendicular to the head that holds the axle in place. Unless the axle on both sides of the head were bent equally there is no other explanation other than the holes through which the axle runs are reamed out but the axle is straight.
Jesus Christ, don't make me go bash one of my old cams in the garage...
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the_mitt
Mar 27, 2006, 11:36 PM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:37 PM)
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cracklover
Mar 28, 2006, 12:13 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Everything else (the vertical alignment of the cam lobes relative from one side to the other, and relative to each other on the right side) is only consistent with a bent axle. wrong.
Okay, okay, the holes in the lobes could also be blown out. If that's what you're suggesting then say so.
In reply to: I am not alone in my understanding, apollodorus seems to know wtf is going on. I have seen similar situations and I can't imagine a force strong enough to bend the axle without way more damage to the individual cam feet. If I am wrong may god strike me dead.
Sheesh, now I hope you're right! Or at least that god's busy, or dead, or whatever.
In reply to: In reply to: All I'm asking is for you to show where your conclusion comes from. Point to any picture and show me where the lobes are bent but aligned along a straight axle. I suppose I was a bit misleading when I was talking about bent cam lobes when in fact I was talking about bending the hole through which the axle runs.
I'm sorry, I don't know what bending a hole means, do you mean the holes were more reamed out in one direction? Because the lobes aren't just out of alignment with the axle. Assuming for a moment that the axle is straight, they're also off-center. Only way that could happen is if the holes are reamed out, or the axle is bent. Just bending the lobes wouldn't do that.
But even reamed out holes wouldn't explain how the axle cap on the left is not aligned with the axle cap on the right, when you line them up with the head. Even you said they're "approximately" in line. Sure, I'd agree with that. But they're off by a few of degrees - that's how much the axle appears to be bent.
In reply to: In reply to: The red line *should* be parallel to the upper axle, but instead you see that the middle of the axle on the left is significantly closer to the red line than the middle of the axle on the right. Hopeless. You can't even see "the middle of the axle on the left" or right.
Maybe you can't, but I can. It's at the bottom of the green line on each side.
In reply to: The red line is (approximately) lined up with the two end points of the axle and perpendicular to the head that holds the axle in place. Unless the axle on both sides of the head were bent equally there is no other explanation other than the holes through which the axle runs are reamed out but the axle is straight.
Changing your story eh? Yes, I'd agree that it looks like in addition to the axle being slightly bent, the holes in the cam lobes on the right are reamed out in such a way as to push them "down" in the picture.
In reply to: Jesus Christ, don't make me go bash one of my old cams in the garage...
In my best Beavis voice -
GO
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summerprophet
Mar 28, 2006, 12:15 AM
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Finally a picture, something to work with.
It looks like you managed to bend one of the axles. While everyone determines their own level of risk, I personally would not leave this cam on my regular rack. I would likely keep it around for aid climbing and as a backup assuming the action is still fine.
As far as keeping this for regular use, I would not really embrace that. While the axles on a camalot is stainless steel, and is a hell of a lot stronger than the lobes, it is still bent, and those things are not that big to begin with.
The other thing to consider, is that if common use made this kind of deformation of your gear, then you apparently are a little harder on it than the rest of us, and as such should perhaps be a little more conservative with your gear analysis.
Hope this helps.
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weschrist
Mar 28, 2006, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: Even you said they're "approximately" in line. Sure, I'd agree with that. But they're off by a few of degrees - that's how much the axle appears to be bent.
Nope, I said the line was approximately lined up with the end points, indicating that the line is not where it should be...
In reply to: In reply to: You can't even see "the middle of the axle on the left" or right. Maybe you can't, but I can. It's at the bottom of the green line on each side.
no it isn't... the green lines are vertical. If you meant orange then again you are wrong because those are the springs that keep the cam open.
In reply to: In reply to: The red line is (approximately) lined up with the two end points of the axle and perpendicular to the head that holds the axle in place. Unless the axle on both sides of the head were bent equally there is no other explanation other than the holes through which the axle runs are reamed out but the axle is straight. Changing your story eh?
Nope, not one bit. The axle is straight, the damage is due to the bending of the softer aluminum cam lobes. Take an old #3 cameltwat and wiggle the lobes, you will see what I am talking about... something I have seen and been familiar with for 10 years now.
In reply to: It looks like the cam foot is just shifted a bit but the axle is still straight. |
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weschrist
Mar 28, 2006, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: Finally a picture, something to work with. It looks like you managed to bend one of the axles.... etc Hope this helps.
Classic... thanks
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cosmiccragsman
Mar 28, 2006, 12:37 AM
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Cracklover Wrote:
In reply to: Bent axle - simple as that
My question is; Why would the axel bend sidways? Wouldn't the axel
bend in the direction of the force that was applied to it? Which in a fall would be downward towards the trigger. Could it be an optical illusion,because the lobes are canted, that makes the axel look
like it's bent sideways?
Cosmiccragsman
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cracklover
Mar 28, 2006, 1:08 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: You can't even see "the middle of the axle on the left" or right. Maybe you can't, but I can. It's at the bottom of the green line on each side. no it isn't... the green lines are vertical. If you meant orange then again you are wrong because those are the springs that keep the cam open.
I'm talking about the green lines in my pic - here (do try to keep up):
http://i1.tinypic.com/se6pm1.jpg
The red line is parallel to where the axle should be. So it should hit the outside of the axles in the same place on both sides. However, while it runs near the middle of the axle on the left, it is off by nearly a quarter inch on the right.
In reply to: The axle is straight, the damage is due to the bending of the softer aluminum cam lobes. Take an old #3 cameltwat and wiggle the lobes, you will see what I am talking about... something I have seen and been familiar with for 10 years now.
This ain't a #3 camelot, and it's not likely to fail in the same way. Small cams tend to fail by the lobes getting flattened, while big cams can actually get their lobes bent, or certainly pushed diagonally. As for why the axle would bend - I have to admit I'm at a loss for that one, but the picture seems clear.
Anyway, it looks like the cams got pushed off-center, *and* the axle is bent down on the right side. Likely the same force caused both deformations.
GO
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weschrist
Mar 28, 2006, 1:32 AM
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In reply to: I'm talking about the green lines in my pic - here (do try to keep up):
it is always all about you isn't it? Now I see them... how could I miss.
In reply to: The red line is parallel to where the axle should be....
should be according to whom? conclusions drawn from poorly drawn lines are poorly supported conclusions.
In reply to: This ain't a #3 camelot
wow, really? dude, you live in Boston, when is the last time you have placed a cam let alone fallen on one hard enough to do any damage? For what it is worth I grew up in SLC and had a bunch of engineering friends who broke cams for a living... I have seen first hand what happens. I suggest you check it out, it really is educational.
In reply to: Small cams tend to fail by the lobes getting flattened, while big cams can actually get their lobes bent, or certainly pushed diagonally. As for why the axle would bend - I have to admit I'm at a loss for that one, but the picture seems clear.
yes, large cams generally fail by the lobes bending... good job.
But I am not talking about the lobes bending. My lobes are not bent, my axle is not bent, and with minimal force I can wiggle my cam lobes several degrees around the pivot point on the axle... and it looks alot like the picture and all the other cams I have seen that have experienced the same fate.
You are choosing to reject a perfectly legitimate explanation, one I'm quite sure anyone at BD would confirm, for a ridiculous explanation based on a horrible horrible picture.
In reply to: *and* the axle is bent down on the right side. Likely the same force caused both deformations.
nope
gone
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dudemanbu
Mar 28, 2006, 1:40 AM
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If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
ps. A duck is a bent axle.
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weschrist
Mar 28, 2006, 1:50 AM
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In reply to: If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. ps. A duck is a bent axle.
dude, it isn't a bent axle or a fucking duck. why would you go with a bent axle, which takes much more force, when reaming the holes in the cam lobes is WAY more common, takes less force, and can result in the exact same appearance?
if you put enough force on that soft aluminum to bend the axles you wouldn't even recognize the lobes.
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michaelmcguinn
Mar 28, 2006, 1:51 AM
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I have to agree that the cam is not square in the picture frame. Any lines that are at right angles (90 degrees) through the cam to the picture frame will then show that the cam is not square or straight.
The cam is double axle too. Fixed at both sides. If one would bend then the other would too. That would take alot of force to bend two steel axles.
I bet that that one lobe just has a none circular hole where the axle goes through. Probably still full strength too.
Bummer that it doesn't work smooth now.
Michael
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weschrist
Mar 28, 2006, 1:52 AM
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finally
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